638 réponses à ce sujet

[Well]

He doesn't have the power to take it over.He never had to face the templars or mages.Combine that with what was left of the city guard they would of spank his butt and kicked his corpse to the curb.

As far as being the only one to know Kirkwall was a mess no.The only one who didn't know it was Biff from Baldur's Gate.

The elfs weren't treated fairly by Arishok.He didn't help the elves. Just those that converted to Qun.

Lying to the Viscount who provided him shelter was pathetic.The arrogant self righteous twit was a phoney.His warriors were speed bumps not much more.Tough against unarmed civilians and the Guard who were just police.

[themonty72]

Guess what Well im playng the game again.Right now just to see how bad you and skill seeker is mistaken.

Modifié par themonty72, 08 juin 2011 - 01:00 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Well wrote...

He doesn't have the power to take it over.He never had to face the templars or mages.Combine that with what was left of the city guard they would of spank his butt and kicked his corpse to the curb.

As far as being the only one to know Kirkwall was a mess no.The only one who didn't know it was Biff from Baldur's Gate.

The elfs weren't treated fairly by Arishok.He didn't help the elves. Just those that converted to Qun.

Lying to the Viscount who provided him shelter was pathetic.The arrogant self righteous twit was a phoney.His warriors were speed bumps not much more.Tough against unarmed civilians and the Guard who were just police.

When the Qunari initially landed, they most likely had the strength to take the city. They also had the strength 3 years later, but Hawke and his plot armor prevented it.

And the Elves are treated as fair as any by the Arishok. He doesn't regard an Elf of the Qun as any less than a Kossith of the Qun, nor does he regard an Elf not of the Qun as any more than a human not of the Qun. That is  a fair treatment.

Nor did the Arishok ever lie. He did not lie when he said he was waiting for a ship to bring him home, however he didn't tell the entire story. That isn't a lie, that is politics. The Arishok was wise not to divulge anything of his true purpose, as that twit to Dumar would probably have spilled the beans rather quickly to the Chantry, which would have proceeded to hunt for the tome aswell to burn as heretical texts, causing a large scale war with the Qunari.
Also, the City Guard isn't just police, they are effectively a standing army, and they got their asses handed to them by the less well-equiped Qunari, without much of their technology.

Edit: Furthermore, the Arishok never asked for anything from Kirkwall, not even the quarters they were given at the docks. He merely accepted what was given to him. The Arishok owes Dumar nothing for accepting something that wasn't asked for. It could be argued that he replied to the kindness, by refraining from tearing Kirkwall down to the ground, though. So they are even.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 08 juin 2011 - 01:43 .

[Well]

themonty72 wrote...

Guess what Well im playng the game again.Right now just to see how bad you and skill seeker is mistaken.

That is special.Have fun.

[Well]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Well wrote...

He doesn't have the power to take it over.He never had to face the templars or mages.Combine that with what was left of the city guard they would of spank his butt and kicked his corpse to the curb.

As far as being the only one to know Kirkwall was a mess no.The only one who didn't know it was Biff from Baldur's Gate.

The elfs weren't treated fairly by Arishok.He didn't help the elves. Just those that converted to Qun.

Lying to the Viscount who provided him shelter was pathetic.The arrogant self righteous twit was a phoney.His warriors were speed bumps not much more.Tough against unarmed civilians and the Guard who were just police.

When the Qunari initially landed, they most likely had the strength to take the city. They also had the strength 3 years later, but Hawke and his plot armor prevented it.

And the Elves are treated as fair as any by the Arishok. He doesn't regard an Elf of the Qun as any less than a Kossith of the Qun, nor does he regard an Elf not of the Qun as any more than a human not of the Qun. That is  a fair treatment.

Nor did the Arishok ever lie. He did not lie when he said he was waiting for a ship to bring him home, however he didn't tell the entire story. That isn't a lie, that is politics. The Arishok was wise not to divulge anything of his true purpose, as that twit to Dumar would probably have spilled the beans rather quickly to the Chantry, which would have proceeded to hunt for the tome aswell to burn as heretical texts, causing a large scale war with the Qunari.
Also, the City Guard isn't just police, they are effectively a standing army, and they got their asses handed to them by the less well-equiped Qunari, without much of their technology.

Edit: Furthermore, the Arishok never asked for anything from Kirkwall, not even the quarters they were given at the docks. He merely accepted what was given to him. The Arishok owes Dumar nothing for accepting something that wasn't asked for. It could be argued that he replied to the kindness, by refraining from tearing Kirkwall down to the ground, though. So they are even.

Lol....

[Jarek_Cousland]

Who cares if his actions are justifiable or not?


At the end of the day I made him look like a pansy in front of his whole crew, and all they did was walk away with they're heads sunk low.


Game, blouses.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

When the Qunari initially landed, they most likely had the strength to take the city. They also had the strength 3 years later, but Hawke and his plot armor prevented it.

The Qunari had the strength when Kirkwall has one of the only two Circles of Magi in the Free Marches? If we look at the Chantry's own history, it was the Circle of Magi that was "the greatest advantage" that the Chantry led forces had against the Qunari in the New Exalted Marches.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And the Elves are treated as fair as any by the Arishok. He doesn't regard an Elf of the Qun as any less than a Kossith of the Qun, nor does he regard an Elf not of the Qun as any more than a human not of the Qun. That is  a fair treatment.

As long as the elves are men, because if they're women, they can't possibly be warriors or even mages since they are women.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Nor did the Arishok ever lie. He did not lie when he said he was waiting for a ship to bring him home, however he didn't tell the entire story. That isn't a lie, that is politics.

It's a lie to say they are waiting for a ship when they are searching for an artifact, since no ship is coming (as the Arishok points out to Hawke towards the end of Blackpowder Courtesy).

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Also, the City Guard isn't just police, they are effectively a standing army, and they got their asses handed to them by the less well-equiped Qunari, without much of their technology.

The guards weren't prepared for a sneak attack that was planned years in advance, especially when the templars make an effort to be the only authority in Kirkwall with any real power.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Edit: Furthermore, the Arishok never asked for anything from Kirkwall, not even the quarters they were given at the docks. He merely accepted what was given to him. The Arishok owes Dumar nothing for accepting something that wasn't asked for. It could be argued that he replied to the kindness, by refraining from tearing Kirkwall down to the ground, though. So they are even.

Couldn't it be similarly argued that the Arishok owes the leadership of Kirkwall for similarly not killing the Qunari outright, then?

[Crossroads_Wanderer]

 I think those that bring up Meredith and Orsino as a comparison to try to refute the arguments against the Arishok are misguided. Pretty much all of the major players in the game are in some way wrong. I see Hawke's role as trying to bring some good out of the cesspool of religious fanaticism and evil that is Kirkwall - and that cesspool includes the Qunari. The evils of Meredith and Orsino are obvious. Meredith is twisted by her fanaticism and Orsino believes that his status as a victim justifies his actions to victimize others. The Arishok isn't quite as obvious, because he isn't the frothing-at-the-mouth mad sort of evil, but he is evil.

The Arishok is a leader in a culture that enslaves its own people. Being a member of the Qun or accepting death is no choice at all and is slavery. Being assigned a role without the benefit of personal choice or freedom is tantamount to slavery. Being enslaved and mutilated for having the gift of magic is evil - just as much as it is in human culture. In fact, the Qunari are, on average, worse than humans in their treatment of their mages. I would say that Tranquil have it worst of all, but not all human mages are made Tranquil, whereas all Qunari mages are treated as Saarebas.

The Arishok lies, both blatantly and by omission, from the very beginning. He says that his people are waiting for a ship, but there is no ship on its way. He doesn't tell you what he is in the city for until near the end of Act 2. He allows chemical warfare to be committed, using his weapon, and he is fully aware of it every step of the way. If you want to talk about honor, an honorable person doesn't leave a minimally guarded weapon where it can be got to by fanatics and then shrug and act like it isn't his problem when said fanatic gases a neighborhood. He holds some of the responsibility for that act. He hides fugitives from the law. The law enforcers are also wrong in that instance, but that doesn't excuse the fact that he shelters murderers. He attacks a city from within and without a declaration of war, often choosing civilian targets. His reason for attacking the city seems to be that it doesn't follow the Qun, so it must be converted or destroyed. For those who sympathize with the Qun, consider this from another angle: if a religion that you did not sympathize with, but possessing great military backing, came to a city and told everyone to convert or die, what would you think? Even if you think that the Qun is a wonderful religious philosophy, the ends do not justify the means, and conversion at sword-point is not a justifiable means.

The fact that the Qunari fight others who are wrong, does not make them right. They are just as wrong as their opponents; it just may be easy to be blinded to that when a fundamentalist, politically dominant church is what they stand against. They, too, are fundamentalists with far too much power in their hands.

Or maybe people are simply looking for someone to look up to in the game. There are no heroes in DA2. There are plenty of evil people, a few opportunists, and a few people struggling to survive, but no one is a shining beacon of good.

Modifié par Crossroads_Wanderer, 08 juin 2011 - 02:08 .

[Skilled Seeker]

Well said. As I always say, everyone's an assh*le in Kirwall. And the Arishok has the biggest assh*le of them all.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

When the Qunari initially landed, they most likely had the strength to take the city. They also had the strength 3 years later, but Hawke and his plot armor prevented it.

The Qunari had the strength when Kirkwall has one of the only two Circles of Magi in the Free Marches? If we look at the Chantry's own history, it was the Circle of Magi that was "the greatest advantage" that the Chantry led forces had against the Qunari in the New Exalted Marches.

Yes. The mages of Thedas are no longer the advantage they used to be against the Qunari. The Qunari have trained their own mages to match the power of Thedas', and the Arishok brought quite a few Saarebas with him. The advantage you speak of is just that: Historical fact, no longer true.

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And the Elves are treated as fair as any by the Arishok. He doesn't regard an Elf of the Qun as any less than a Kossith of the Qun, nor does he regard an Elf not of the Qun as any more than a human not of the Qun. That is  a fair treatment.

As long as the elves are men, because if they're women, they can't possibly be warriors or even mages since they are women.

Men and women under the Qun are treated equally. A woman can't be a warrior, but a man can't be a priest. They share an equal amount of restrictions.

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Nor did the Arishok ever lie. He did not lie when he said he was waiting for a ship to bring him home, however he didn't tell the entire story. That isn't a lie, that is politics.

It's a lie to say they are waiting for a ship when they are searching for an artifact, since no ship is coming (as the Arishok points out to Hawke towards the end of Blackpowder Courtesy).

Except it is not a lie. They are waiting for a ship to come. The ship they are waiting for isn't enroute yet, but that doesn't mean they aren't waiting for it to happen.

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Also, the City Guard isn't just police, they are effectively a standing army, and they got their asses handed to them by the less well-equiped Qunari, without much of their technology.

The guards weren't prepared for a sneak attack that was planned years in advance, especially when the templars make an effort to be the only authority in Kirkwall with any real power.

Perhaps they should have been, given the rise of tensions over the years. You just further prove that the Qunari could take Kirkwall if it weren't for Hawke, due to the fractured nature of Kirkwall's military command.

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Edit: Furthermore, the Arishok never asked for anything from Kirkwall, not even the quarters they were given at the docks. He merely accepted what was given to him. The Arishok owes Dumar nothing for accepting something that wasn't asked for. It could be argued that he replied to the kindness, by refraining from tearing Kirkwall down to the ground, though. So they are even.

Couldn't it be similarly argued that the Arishok owes the leadership of Kirkwall for similarly not killing the Qunari outright, then?

If they had had the power, yes. They didn't. The Arishok owes Kirkwall nothing.

[Wulfram]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Men and women under the Qun are treated equally. A woman can't be a warrior, but a man can't be a priest. They share an equal amount of restrictions.

Indeed. Both men and women are slaves under the Qun.

[Skilled Seeker]

lol nowhere in the game does it say that the Qunari have been training their mages to match those of Thedas. Gameplay =/= lore.

Now all the mages in the Free Marches were in Kirkwall during the time of the attack as those from Starkhaven had been transferred. They numbered many hundreds. Add to that all the Templars that would be needed to control them, add to that the City Guard, add to that the Coterie and various criminal ruffians that clearly don't want the Qunari taking over. That amounts to a sizable army well into the thousands. All those against a few hundred Qunari at the very most, consisting of underequipped kossith and malnourished elves with no combat experience. You would be a fool to say the Arishok stood any chance whatsoever.

Modifié par Skilled Seeker, 08 juin 2011 - 09:45 .

[Dormiglione]

Crossroads_Wanderer wrote...

 I think those that bring up Meredith and Orsino as a comparison to try to refute the arguments against the Arishok are misguided. Pretty much all of the major players in the game are in some way wrong. I see Hawke's role as trying to bring some good out of the cesspool of religious fanaticism and evil that is Kirkwall - and that cesspool includes the Qunari.

And Hawke failed in all attempts. Meredith died, Orsino died, many mages died, son of the viscount and the viscount died, Leandra died, Elvina died. Distruction and Death accompanied Hawke.

Crossroads_Wanderer wrote...
The evils of Meredith and Orsino are obvious. Meredith is twisted by her fanaticism and Orsino believes that his status as a victim justifies his actions to victimize others. The Arishok isn't quite as obvious, because he isn't the frothing-at-the-mouth mad sort of evil, but he is evil.

The Arishok is a leader in a culture that enslaves its own people. Being a member of the Qun or accepting death is no choice at all and is slavery. Being assigned a role without the benefit of personal choice or freedom is tantamount to slavery.

Its not slavery. When you grew up living with the Quanri, living the Qun, than it becames automatically part of you. They are nt enslaved, they live by the Codex of the Qun.

Crossroads_Wanderer wrote...
Being enslaved and mutilated for having the gift of magic is evil - just as much as it is in human culture. In fact, the Qunari are, on average, worse than humans in their treatment of their mages.

I agree. I give you that.

Crossroads_Wanderer wrote...
I would say that Tranquil have it worst of all, but not all human mages are made Tranquil, whereas all Qunari mages are treated as Saarebas.

How do you know? Their could be as many free Qunari mage that lives like the apostate.

Crossroads_Wanderer wrote...
The Arishok lies, both blatantly and by omission, from the very beginning. He says that his people are waiting for a ship, but there is no ship on its way. He doesn't tell you what he is in the city for until near the end of Act 2.

Like other said: Politics, he is a leader and he was well informed about what was going on in the city.

Crossroads_Wanderer wrote...
He allows chemical warfare to be committed, using his weapon, and he is fully aware of it every step of the way.

Not true, the poison was stolen by the fanatics. They killed the Qunari guards and killed many citizens. Blame the viscount for knowing about the radical groups, but staying passive.

Crossroads_Wanderer wrote...
If you want to talk about honor, an honorable person doesn't leave a minimally guarded weapon where it can be got to by fanatics and then shrug and act like it isn't his problem when said fanatic gases a neighborhood. He holds some of the responsibility for that act.

As does the guard, the templars, the viscount, the chantry and the nobility.

Crossroads_Wanderer wrote...
He hides fugitives from the law. The law enforcers are also wrong in that instance, but that doesn't excuse the fact that he shelters murderers.

They converted to the Qun. What the elves did was self justice because the corrupted guards violated an elve woman. Aveline said, she heard some rumor, but that should be investigated. Again passive.

Crossroads_Wanderer wrote...
He attacks a city from within and without a declaration of war, often choosing civilian targets. His reason for attacking the city seems to be that it doesn't follow the Qun, so it must be converted or destroyed. For those who sympathize with the Qun, consider this from another angle: if a religion that you did not sympathize with, but possessing great military backing, came to a city and told everyone to convert or die, what would you think? Even if you think that the Qun is a wonderful religious philosophy, the ends do not justify the means, and conversion at sword-point is not a justifiable means.

And again the Qunari didnt came overnight and invaded Kirkwall. They stranded years ago in Kirkwall. They endured all insults, the kidnapping of their people that died.
When did the Arishok lose his patience. Remember? It was as Hawke told him that Isabella went away with the tome. At this time the Arishok was already 4-6 year in Kirkwall. He couldnt go back to Par Vollen without the tome, it was like he was banned from Par Vollen.
Now, what were his options? It was not the best decision he took attacking Kirkwall, but he was desperated, angry, lost patience and went on his suicide mission. Granting all other surviving Qunari the possibility to return to Par Vollen.

Crossroads_Wanderer wrote...
The fact that the Qunari fight others who are wrong, does not make them right. They are just as wrong as their opponents; it just may be easy to be blinded to that when a fundamentalist, politically dominant church is what they stand against. They, too, are fundamentalists with far too much power in their hands.

Or maybe people are simply looking for someone to look up to in the game. There are no heroes in DA2. There are plenty of evil people, a few opportunists, and a few people struggling to survive, but no one is a shining beacon of good.

And only the Arishok and Varric gained my respect.

Modifié par Dormiglione, 08 juin 2011 - 11:03 .

[Clangeddin86]

The respect that goes to the Arishok depends on views we have on responsabilities.
The figure that contrasts the Arishok is not Hawke, but (paradoxally) the Viscount.
The Viscount represents that kind of fake leader behind whom the real powers hide. He's weak, and his weakness leads to huge disfunctions in the society he should protect/serve/rule/watever, and his refusal to... "Embrace his destiny" (as in, performing his role in the intended manner) is what eventually leads to his demise and the demise of his son.
The Arishok is that attempt to get rid of these slimey figures who are nothing but tools to eliminate transparency in the relations withing those who rules and those who don't. Qunaris may be a "dictatorship", but they are clear, they are coherent, they are WYSIWYG.

There is a thinly veiled references in the contrast between modern democracies and some eastern countries (read China), and even tho we may never trade the two "ways of life" (none of us would I think) maybe we have an "hidden" desire to see some of the things that happen "over there", "over here" as well.

For example in China, those CEOs who screwed with Milk (that caused death of countless children), were put to death very quick. Here in Italy, after Thyssenkrup pretty much killed they workers, the worst they'll ever get is a slap on the wrist.

Also, seeing a figure of power paying always causes some satisfaction for those who don't have any, and the Arishok has the "merit" of killing the Viscount, and indirectly ordering the death of Sister Petrice (another slimey ****), this may one of the reasons why people respect the Arishok.

[Well]

Clangeddin86 wrote...

The respect that goes to the Arishok depends on views we have on responsabilities.
The figure that contrasts the Arishok is not Hawke, but (paradoxally) the Viscount.
The Viscount represents that kind of fake leader behind whom the real powers hide. He's weak, and his weakness leads to huge disfunctions in the society he should protect/serve/rule/watever, and his refusal to... "Embrace his destiny" (as in, performing his role in the intended manner) is what eventually leads to his demise and the demise of his son.
The Arishok is that attempt to get rid of these slimey figures who are nothing but tools to eliminate transparency in the relations withing those who rules and those who don't. Qunaris may be a "dictatorship", but they are clear, they are coherent, they are WYSIWYG.

There is a thinly veiled references in the contrast between modern democracies and some eastern countries (read China), and even tho we may never trade the two "ways of life" (none of us would I think) maybe we have an "hidden" desire to see some of the things that happen "over there", "over here" as well.

For example in China, those CEOs who screwed with Milk (that caused death of countless children), were put to death very quick. Here in Italy, after Thyssenkrup pretty much killed they workers, the worst they'll ever get is a slap on the wrist.

Also, seeing a figure of power paying always causes some satisfaction for those who don't have any, and the Arishok has the "merit" of killing the Viscount, and indirectly ordering the death of Sister Petrice (another slimey ****), this may one of the reasons why people respect the Arishok.

Apparently they missed Mao after The Great Leap Foward.So it is really selective.

[themonty72]

WELL YOU STILL AT IT I SEE. Post my comments after act 2

Modifié par themonty72, 08 juin 2011 - 05:39 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Wulfram wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Men and women under the Qun are treated equally. A woman can't be a warrior, but a man can't be a priest. They share an equal amount of restrictions.

Indeed. Both men and women are slaves under the Qun.

Slavery implies they are forced. Qunari choose to be.

Skilled Seeker wrote...

lol nowhere in the game does it say that the Qunari have been training their mages to match those of Thedas. Gameplay =/= lore.

Now all the mages in the Free Marches were in Kirkwall during the time of the attack as those from Starkhaven had been transferred. They numbered many hundreds. Add to that all the Templars that would be needed to control them, add to that the City Guard, add to that the Coterie and various criminal ruffians that clearly don't want the Qunari taking over. That amounts to a sizable army well into the thousands. All those against a few hundred Qunari at the very most, consisting of underequipped kossith and malnourished elves with no combat experience. You would be a fool to say the Arishok stood any chance whatsoever.

/facepalm
Go read your lore again. It very clearly and explicitly states that the Qunari had trained their Saarebas towards the end of the Qunari Wars.

And you are a fool to expect that any criminal organization would ever join in a fight. Thousands of sieges has happened throughout our history, where if the besiegers would be unfavorable victors, and yet the criminal organizations did nothing. You know why? Because if they did, they would have exposed themselves, and would be killed by their own city anyway. So that strikes the carta and coterie  off your list.

The mages did try to assist yet they were all slaughtered (the ones that tried) by a few underequipped Qunari. A bunch of dead mages (more than the 7 which were sent to stop the fifth blight) lies in front of the stairs to the council chambers, common Qunari warriors looming over them, not even an Arvaarad amongst them, and not a single dead Qunari amongst the bodies. Yeah, what a great help those mages proved to be.

And the Qunari have always been outnumbered. That is nothing new. But even when outnumbered only a few of them died during the Qunari wars, while the human nations suffered terrible losses. The QUnari only retreated because they were being pushed on too many fronts for their few numbers to cover. So an unseasoned army of a few thousands at absolute best, would not fare well against an army of seasoned Qunari. Quite the opposite. However Hawke is there with his plot armor to mess up all their plans.

I say it again. You should read up on the lore, before you try these debates.

[Wulfram]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Slavery implies they are forced. Qunari choose to be.

And if they don't "choose to be", then they are killed or used as labourers after their minds are destroyed by qamek.

[Skilled Seeker]

Again you're using gameplay cinematics and trying to blend it with the lore. No. Your argument is invalid. Otherwise I could point to the fact that the mages that were killed were all apprentices and Orsino alone kicked major ass.

Give me a source that states Saarebas are now equals to Thedas' mages?

We see the Carta fighting Qunari in high town. They didn't slink away and hide.

Also discounting Hawke, if you choose to sneak into the Viscount's keep, the small squad of Templars with Meredith and Orsino alone dispatch all those Qunari guarding the gate. The Qunari outnumbered them! So obviously the kossith aren't so mighty, they only did so well because they were the ones attacking and they had the element of surprise. When defending, they were swiftly eliminated.

Modifié par Skilled Seeker, 08 juin 2011 - 08:03 .

[Vit246]

Here's my 2 cents on the Arishok. Wall of text coming. Take what you will from it.

He arrives, though not exactly by choice, in Kirkwall pursuing a thief with an army under his control. An army of an aggressive expansionist race that waged a long brutal war about 300 years ago that lasted for over a 100 years. The Qunari signed the peace treaty afterwards only because it was now convenient and the humans believed in it. Sten made it clear that the treaty is just a piece of paper that they have no intention of keeping in the long run, and their "honor" demands they wage war again in the future to conquer and convert all of Thedas once they are ready. No one trusts them because the Qunari are, above all, religious fanatics that will never stop at converting all of Thedas, much like the Chantry. Back to the point, the Arishok arrives in a human city with a foreign army, looking ready to fight and conquer, but he does not. He also does not give out any official explanation for why he is here or what he is searching for. The Viscount, adhering to the peace treaty, also merely a puppet ruler of the Chantry and Templars, gives the Arishok a compound in the Docks as an offering, using whatever power he has at the sufferance of the Templars. He is effectively a guest in Kirkwall at the behest of its rulers.

For 4 years, the Arishok never officially explains to anyone, not even the rulers of Kirkwall, why he is here or what he is searching for. He lies about waiting for a ship when there is no ship on the way. When Hawke asks him, the Arishok claims it is a "demand of the Qun" and a matter that only the Qunari understand, and that anyone else is incapable of understanding. In case anyone forgot, this is why he is here:

A thief stole a sacred relic from the Qunari and the Arishok cannot leave Kirkwall without the relic.

An act of stealing a sacred relic is something that the Arishok considers beyond the understanding of the humans. His mission will take as long as needed. Right or wrong, this is vital information that he keeps from the human leaders of Kirkwall because he thinks them incapable of understanding and does not respect or acknowledge them as political equals. He "let them rot" without this information. Even after he admits he is here because a thief stole from them, he ever explains what it is, never informs the Viscount about it, never asks for their aid. The Arishok does not seem to understand that the most of Kirkwall would love nothing more than to see the Quanri gone from the city and would do almost anything for that to happen. Maybe if the Arishok explained himself, the relic could've been found with Kirkwall's aid and the conflict could've been avoided.

The Arishok keeps the conflict tense with his silence. For all the people of Kirkwall know, the Qunari are lying, secretly spying on them and preparing to take over with an army and forcing them to convert to a heathen religion and if they don't convert, they are either killed or turned into mindless laborers. They have plenty of reasons to be nervous and fear them. Given the Qunari reputation, it's not inaccurate. The rumors and speculation fuel the paranoia of citizens and the Chantry, leading to attacks. The Arishok says he has made no threat, but he already has in some ways. No explanation for why he is here. A foreign army at his hand ready to conquer. Tal-Vashoth who left his army, robbing and murdering along the Wounded Coast. In response to attempted theft of the gunpowder recipe, he replaces it with a recipe of poisonous gas as a "decoy". Let me repeat, the Arishok replaces a recipe of a dangerous weapon with a recipe of another dangerous weapon, knowing that it would be stolen and used. The Arishok claims "It is no longer their problem." and that "fixing their mess is not a demand of the Qun!", but they ARE responsible. Why did he not replace the gunpowder with a recipe for something entirely harmless as a decoy? Why did he carelessly threaten the lives of innocents with a poison gas decoy? He shares responsibility for providing the thieves with the poison gas and the death of innocents. In response to accusations that "it was their fault, that they were careless with their trap", the Arishok brushes them off, saying "Even without the saar-qamek, there would've been death". I imagine the deaths would have been minimal had he used a harmless decoy, but he did not. He never shuts up with his temper tantrums about how flawed and imperfect Kirkwall is when the Qunari are no different with their black-and-white view and Tal-Vashoth. And he wonders why people attack him.

I'm not gonna bother much with the situation of the elven fugitives who went to the Qunari for protection, b/c that is a very gray issue. I will say this: Both the law and the Arishok are wrong. The law failed to provide justice for the elves, and the Arishok saw fit to shelter the elves only because they converted to the Qun, basically interfering with an outside matter. This says to me that the Arishok is a hypocrite, not wanting any interference with his mission but all-willing to disregard and interfere with non-Qunari law and issues if he feels like it.

At the end, right or wrong, the Arishok has the gall to demand that Hawke give up Isabela, after he recently refused to give up the 2 elves. After everything he did, he does not deserve an honorable duel or death.

I don't respect the Arishok because there is almost nothing respectable or honorable about him. I also don't like the Qun. A person either converts or dies. Under the Qun, no one is free to choose a role, and for the unlucky ones who don't like their role, they are free to "deny and die". I also hate the way Qunari treat their mages. Since that is what awaits for mages like Bethany and Hawke, I will always oppose the Qunari and their Qun.

Modifié par Vit246, 08 juin 2011 - 11:45 .

[Well]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Again you're using gameplay cinematics and trying to blend it with the lore. No. Your argument is invalid. Otherwise I could point to the fact that the mages that were killed were all apprentices and Orsino alone kicked major ass.

Give me a source that states Saarebas are now equals to Thedas' mages?

We see the Carta fighting Qunari in high town. They didn't slink away and hide.

Also discounting Hawke, if you choose to sneak into the Viscount's keep, the small squad of Templars with Meredith and Orsino alone dispatch all those Qunari guarding the gate. The Qunari outnumbered them! So obviously the kossith aren't so mighty, they only did so well because they were the ones attacking and they had the element of surprise. When defending, they were swiftly eliminated.

No fair using facts.

[Netem]

I have a question, which I think is sort of related, though not strictly on topic.

If someone presented it like a math problem, I could get behind the idea that
mages + templars + city guard > Qunari.

However, the Viscount expressively says that he does not believe Kirkwall has the necessary manpower to evict the Qunari, and at the end of act two, the Qunari has indeed taken the city.

So why do you argue that the Arishok does not have that power? Or are you just arguing that he couldn't possibly hold the city for very long?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Again you're using gameplay cinematics and trying to blend it with the lore. No. Your argument is invalid. Otherwise I could point to the fact that the mages that were killed were all apprentices and Orsino alone kicked major ass.

Give me a source that states Saarebas are now equals to Thedas' mages?

We see the Carta fighting Qunari in high town. They didn't slink away and hide.

Also discounting Hawke, if you choose to sneak into the Viscount's keep, the small squad of Templars with Meredith and Orsino alone dispatch all those Qunari guarding the gate. The Qunari outnumbered them! So obviously the kossith aren't so mighty, they only did so well because they were the ones attacking and they had the element of surprise. When defending, they were swiftly eliminated.

Cinematics is lore, gameplay is not neccesarily lore. You need to learn to discern between the two. That Hawke can make a person explode in a shower of blood with a strike from his sword isn't neccesarily lore, that he entered the Gallows through the front gate during the final fight, is.
And no Orsino alone did not kick ass. His mates weren't as fortunate though. They rather sucked actually. Also, Orsino's first attempt had failed. And his "ass kicking" included thowing a fire ball at the Qunari then running away...

"...Kirkwall was attacked in a daring night raid where the Qunari used their leashed saarebas mages in an unprecedented display of sorcery. The walls were torn down and the city was taken, and for the next four years, Kirkwall endured the most brutal occupation in its history. "
History of Kirkwall: Chapter 3

The Carta fighting the Qunari does not mean they have joined the "army" of Kirkwall. They attack Hawke at the same time remember? They were fighting everyone.

And we don't know what happened outside the throne room. It is equally possible that the Templars and Orsino was getting pounded, but were relieved by reinforcements, or that they merely fought them to a standstill that Meredith could withdraw from. Or that the Qunari fighting stopped once they recieved news of the Arishok's death. What happened out there is an unknown.

[Crossroads_Wanderer]

Dormiglione wrote...
And Hawke failed in all attempts. Meredith died, Orsino died, many mages died, son of the viscount and the viscount died, Leandra died, Elvina died. Distruction and Death accompanied Hawke.

I partially agree. Hawke didn't magically fix everything, but s/he takes out the worst of the trouble-makers. After Hawke leaves, the city is still in turmoil, but the worst of the fanatics are gone, leaving the door open to civilized discourse at some point in the future.

Its not slavery. When you grew up living with the Quanri, living the Qun, than it becames automatically part of you. They are nt enslaved, they live by the Codex of the Qun.

It is indoctrination and slavery. When children are raised in cults, they usually strongly believe in the things they were raised to believe, but they had no choice and no exposure to other ideas, so we consider it wrong to raise children like that. People need to be exposed to other ideas to form a balanced view of the world and to make decisions properly. The Qun are not given that balanced view of the world. They are immersed in their own insular culture until adulthood, at which point, their views have hardened and they generally cannot be swayed from believing in what they were raised to believe. I'm not saying that they must be swayed from believing those things, as some people may make an educated decision to follow the Qun, but Qunari are not given the choice to make an educated decision. They are forced into it by indoctrination, indoctrination means a lack of freedom, and therefore, it is slavery.

How do you know? Their could be as many free Qunari mage that lives like the apostate.

Do you mean Qunari who run from societies strictures and actually live as the Qunari equivalent of apostates, or do you mean that you think there are Qunari who, within their society, have the same degree of freedom that apostates have? I sincerely doubt that the latter is true, given what the Qunari in the Shepherding Wolves quest say. They truly believe that mages are dangerous and must be controlled completely. Given the uniformity of Qunari views, I doubt that this is simply one subculture within the Qun. If you mean the former, running from the laws that say you must be treated like an animal is no sort of freedom. I wouldn't say that apostates are truly free, either, as they have to hide what they are and are constantly under the threat of being discovered and killed or shipped back to the circle. The laws of both the Qun and the human cultures that enslave their mages are wrong.

Like other said: Politics, he is a leader and he was well informed about what was going on in the city.

Politics is not an adequate excuse for lying. There is something called lying by omission, and it is exactly what the Arishok does. Why is it acceptable for politicians to lie, when it isn't for anyone else? We should be holding our politicians to higher standards, not lower ones.

Not true, the poison was stolen by the fanatics. They killed the Qunari guards and killed many citizens. Blame the viscount for knowing about the radical groups, but staying passive.

The Arishok makes it clear that he knew that the poison was poorly guarded and he expected it to be distributed in a manner that would make it quite dangerous to the city. The final method of distribution wasn't quite what he expected, but it was actually less destructive than what he expected. He could have guarded the poison more closely, he could have pursued the thieves, but he wanted the disaster to happen.

As does the guard, the templars, the viscount, the chantry and the nobility.

Less so than he is. The Viscount has a relatively high degree of responsibility for the disaster, as he was directly aware of the fanatics and he was too weak a leader to do anything about it, but I don't believe the rest of those groups were aware. The rest of those groups are responsible for their own evils, but the fanatics who are acting up in response to those evils are responsible for their own actions, and not the people they are reacting to.

They converted to the Qun. What the elves did was self justice because the corrupted guards violated an elve woman. Aveline said, she heard some rumor, but that should be investigated. Again passive.

Self-justice is just a softer term for vigilantism. In this case, the law enforcers were wrong, but the law was not. Murder is not right and they committed murder. If the elves felt that it was important to make a statement about the legal injustice, they should have practiced civil disobedience and submitted to punishment. Instead, they come off as remorseless killers who think themselves above the law because they kill and then do not accept proper punishment for it. And, yes, I think Aveline was very much wrong in that situation and was surprisingly often bad at her job.

And again the Qunari didnt came overnight and invaded Kirkwall. They stranded years ago in Kirkwall. They endured all insults, the kidnapping of their people that died.
When did the Arishok lose his patience. Remember? It was as Hawke told him that Isabella went away with the tome. At this time the Arishok was already 4-6 year in Kirkwall. He couldnt go back to Par Vollen without the tome, it was like he was banned from Par Vollen.
Now, what were his options? It was not the best decision he took attacking Kirkwall, but he was desperated, angry, lost patience and went on his suicide mission. Granting all other surviving Qunari the possibility to return to Par Vollen.

Losing one's patience is no excuse for killing hundreds of innocent bystanders. You may think it's understandable (I don't), but that doesn't make him any less wrong.

And only the Arishok and Varric gained my respect.

Clearly, the Arishok did not gain my respect. Varric didn't really gain my respect, either. He was an opportunist and gave little consideration to morality, but he reminded me of a less intellectual version of a good friend and I think he was the best of a flawed lot of companions, so he gained my fondness.

Modifié par Crossroads_Wanderer, 08 juin 2011 - 10:57 .

[Well]

Netem wrote...

I have a question, which I think is sort of related, though not strictly on topic.

If someone presented it like a math problem, I could get behind the idea that
mages + templars + city guard > Qunari.

However, the Viscount expressively says that he does not believe Kirkwall has the necessary manpower to evict the Qunari, and at the end of act two, the Qunari has indeed taken the city.

So why do you argue that the Arishok does not have that power? Or are you just arguing that he couldn't possibly hold the city for very long?

Actually they just took the Keep.I doubt they did more than that.Otherwise there wouldn't be any mages or templars left.