638 réponses à ce sujet

[Vit246]

Dormiglione wrote...
They converted to the Qun. What the elves did was self justice because the corrupted guards violated an elve woman. Aveline said, she heard some rumor, but that should be investigated. Again passive.

Crossroads_Wanderer wrote...
Self-justice is just a softer term for vigilantism. In this case, the law enforcers were wrong, but the law was not. Murder is not right and they committed murder. If the elves felt that it was important to make a statement about the legal injustice, they should have practiced civil disobedience and submitted to punishment. Instead, they come off as remorseless killers who think themselves above the law because they kill and then do not accept proper punishment for it. And, yes, I think Aveline was very much wrong in that situation and was surprisingly often bad at her job.

I'm gonna play the devil's advocate here. Have you ever played the City Elf origin back in DAO? This is the exact same situtaion. Would you honestly have allowed your City Elf to submit to punishment by the Denerim city guard right there and then?

Modifié par Vit246, 09 juin 2011 - 12:06 .

[Crossroads_Wanderer]

Vit246 wrote...

I'm gonna play the devil's advocate here. Have you ever played the City Elf origin back in DAO? This is the exact same situtaion. Would you honestly have allowed your City Elf to submit to punishment by the Denerim city guard right there and then?

In the city elf origin, you have to kill him in self-defense. The murders who fled to the Qunari killed in revenge. The two are very different.

[LadyVaJedi]

I respect the Arishok's opinion but I don't agree with his views. I do feel that along with looking for Bella he is waiting for the perfect time to try a take-over as well.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Crossroads_Wanderer wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

I'm gonna play the devil's advocate here. Have you ever played the City Elf origin back in DAO? This is the exact same situtaion. Would you honestly have allowed your City Elf to submit to punishment by the Denerim city guard right there and then?

In the city elf origin, you have to kill him in self-defense. The murders who fled to the Qunari killed in revenge. The two are very different.

No you don't. You either attack him out of vengeance, or you take his money and leave.

[Vit246]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Crossroads_Wanderer wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

I'm gonna play the devil's advocate here. Have you ever played the City Elf origin back in DAO? This is the exact same situtaion. Would you honestly have allowed your City Elf to submit to punishment by the Denerim city guard right there and then?

In the city elf origin, you have to kill him in self-defense. The murders who fled to the Qunari killed in revenge. The two are very different.

No you don't. You either attack him out of vengeance, or you take his money and leave.

The City Elf kills the noble because he violated Shianni, his/her cousin. The elves kills the guardsman because he violated their sister. Its the same thing.

[dragonflight288]

The female city elf fights in self-defense at first, and then in Shianni's honor. The male purposefully sneaks in and slaughters the guards in an attempt to rescue the women.

EDIT: The only difference I see is that those elves killed a guard, a city elf warden kills a noble. Much higher offense in Thedas.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 09 juin 2011 - 03:51 .

[Skilled Seeker]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
snip.

Either way, it's impossible to say that the Arishok could have taken Kirkwall. All of Kirkwall's various factions had not mobilised yet before he was defeated. Had Hawke not been there, then this mass mobilisation would have occurred and the Qunari would have been squished regardless.

[Well]

Vit246 wrote...

Dormiglione wrote...
They converted to the Qun. What the elves did was self justice because the corrupted guards violated an elve woman. Aveline said, she heard some rumor, but that should be investigated. Again passive.

Crossroads_Wanderer wrote...
Self-justice is just a softer term for vigilantism. In this case, the law enforcers were wrong, but the law was not. Murder is not right and they committed murder. If the elves felt that it was important to make a statement about the legal injustice, they should have practiced civil disobedience and submitted to punishment. Instead, they come off as remorseless killers who think themselves above the law because they kill and then do not accept proper punishment for it. And, yes, I think Aveline was very much wrong in that situation and was surprisingly often bad at her job.

I'm gonna play the devil's advocate here. Have you ever played the City Elf origin back in DAO? This is the exact same situtaion. Would you honestly have allowed your City Elf to submit to punishment by the Denerim city guard right there and then?

Actually he did.Duncan used the Right of Conscription.RoC trumps arrest.

[Netem]

Well wrote...

Actually they just took the Keep.I doubt they did more than that.Otherwise there wouldn't be any mages or templars left.

Alright, I get you. I disagree, though.

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Either way, it's impossible to say that the Arishok could have taken Kirkwall. All of Kirkwall's various factions had not mobilised yet before he was defeated. Had Hawke not been there, then this mass mobilisation would have occurred and the Qunari would have been squished regardless.

Kirkwall's defenses are not some well-oiled machine that is brought out and used on a regular basis. There is well-documented friction between all the factions: mages vs templars, templars vs city guards, carta and coterie vs everyone.

I guess each faction could mobilize independently of one another, but that would make for a weak defense. Some could probably even try to work together, e.g. Meredith and Orsino, but without Hawke there it probably wouldn't have worked nearly as smoothly as it did.

I see it a little like a 300 scenario. I'm not saying that the Qunari automatically win because they have the superior war machine, I just don't think it's as clear cut as you make it out to be. In fact, it feels like it's one of those cases where the protagonist is the one deciding factor.

Modifié par Netem, 09 juin 2011 - 07:52 .

[Silentblaze]

I think the reason people like him is because he's from a land where there is no racial repression (a modern idea). There is segregation between genders and mages. However since we aren't constantly exposed to it (no female qunari or Saarebas standing around with dialog) he seems like an escape or mute from the constant endorsements of the Mage/Templar arguments. An oasis of sanity in the Kirkwall.

[Wulfram]

Vit246 wrote...

The City Elf kills the noble because he violated Shianni, his/her cousin. The elves kills the guardsman because he violated their sister. Its the same thing.

The City Elf kills the noble to stop the continued rape of Shianni and the other women.  Vaughan, being an idiot as well as a monster, will offer to pay you an extravagant amount of money for his life but won't free them - the only option other than killing him is to abandon them.

Modifié par Wulfram, 09 juin 2011 - 09:38 .

[Crossroads_Wanderer]

Wulfram wrote...
The City Elf kills the noble to stop the continued rape of Shianni and the other women.  Vaughan, being an idiot as well as a monster, will offer to pay you an extravagant amount of money for his life but won't free them - the only option other than killing him is to abandon them.

Ah, that's right. I knew there was some reason why it was morally reprehensible to not kill him, but I misremembered it as self-defense. In regards to the poster playing devil's advocate: while killing Vaughan in that scenario is a form of taking the law into your own hands, there was an active threat to others that your character removes by killing Vaughan. While it could be argued that the rapist guard was a threat to others, as far as I can remember, he didn't have a victim right then and there when the elves killed him. The difference is that, in one scenario, you are preventing harm that cannot be prevented without taking the law into your own hands, whereas, in the other scenario, the elves are theoretically preventing harm, but it could have been prevented in a more peaceful and just manner.

[Giggles_Manically]

As I recall I had fun times with Vaughan.





Round and round the alienage, the rapist chased the elves
All of the sudden POP!
Off went his head!

[Dormiglione]

Vit246 wrote...

Dormiglione wrote...
They converted to the Qun. What the elves did was self justice because the corrupted guards violated an elve woman. Aveline said, she heard some rumor, but that should be investigated. Again passive.

Crossroads_Wanderer wrote...
Self-justice is just a softer term for vigilantism. In this case, the law enforcers were wrong, but the law was not. Murder is not right and they committed murder. If the elves felt that it was important to make a statement about the legal injustice, they should have practiced civil disobedience and submitted to punishment. Instead, they come off as remorseless killers who think themselves above the law because they kill and then do not accept proper punishment for it. And, yes, I think Aveline was very much wrong in that situation and was surprisingly often bad at her job.

I'm gonna play the devil's advocate here. Have you ever played the City Elf origin back in DAO? This is the exact same situtaion. Would you honestly have allowed your City Elf to submit to punishment by the Denerim city guard right there and then?

Yes, i think i made 10+ playthroughs in Origins. I made playthrough with a male city elf and a playthrough with a female city elf.
And the Origin of the female city elf was "very upsetting"? It wasnt shown what happened, but it implied that my female city elf (warden) was violated by these "nobles".
So, its an absolute other point of view. Because as a female city elf, you were humiliated by this "nobles".

[Dormiglione]

Crossroads_Wanderer wrote...

Dormiglione wrote...

How do you know? Their could be as many free Qunari mage that lives like the apostate.

Do you mean Qunari who run from societies strictures and actually live as the Qunari equivalent of apostates, or do you mean that you think there are Qunari who, within their society, have the same degree of freedom that apostates have? I sincerely doubt that the latter is true, given what the Qunari in the Shepherding Wolves quest say. They truly believe that mages are dangerous and must be controlled completely. Given the uniformity of Qunari views, I doubt that this is simply one subculture within the Qun. If you mean the former, running from the laws that say you must be treated like an animal is no sort of freedom. I wouldn't say that apostates are truly free, either, as they have to hide what they are and are constantly under the threat of being discovered and killed or shipped back to the circle. The laws of both the Qun and the human cultures that enslave their mages are wrong.

So far i remember Sten told the warden that the Tal- Vashoth choosed long time ago to leave the Qun. And they were many who left, so many that they builded their own villages.
So i assume, that there are also female amongst the Tal-Vashoth and they would have children. I dont know what happens with mages that were "born as Tal-Vashoth", i dont think they get the same treatment.
Thats what i meant living like "apostate".

[EmperorSahlertz]

Crossroads_Wanderer wrote...

Wulfram wrote...
The City Elf kills the noble to stop the continued rape of Shianni and the other women.  Vaughan, being an idiot as well as a monster, will offer to pay you an extravagant amount of money for his life but won't free them - the only option other than killing him is to abandon them.

Ah, that's right. I knew there was some reason why it was morally reprehensible to not kill him, but I misremembered it as self-defense. In regards to the poster playing devil's advocate: while killing Vaughan in that scenario is a form of taking the law into your own hands, there was an active threat to others that your character removes by killing Vaughan. While it could be argued that the rapist guard was a threat to others, as far as I can remember, he didn't have a victim right then and there when the elves killed him. The difference is that, in one scenario, you are preventing harm that cannot be prevented without taking the law into your own hands, whereas, in the other scenario, the elves are theoretically preventing harm, but it could have been prevented in a more peaceful and just manner.

So vigilantism is okay in some cases?

[Wulfram]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So vigilantism is okay in some cases?

Stopping a rape in progress isn't vigilantism.

[dragonflight288]

Allow me to point out that those two elves did try and talk to the guards and report the one. Aveline said there had been rumors. They tried peaceful methods first, but because they were elves, no one was giving them the time of day.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Wulfram wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So vigilantism is okay in some cases?

Stopping a rape in progress isn't vigilantism.

Killing him is. 
For a commoner to kill a noble is a very serious crime even. I doubt the judge would even see it as vigilantism.

[Wulfram]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Stopping a rape in progress isn't vigilantism.

Killing him is.

Not if it is necessary to stop the rape.  Which it is in the CE origin.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Wulfram wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Stopping a rape in progress isn't vigilantism.

Killing him is.

Not if it is necessary to stop the rape.  Which it is in the CE origin.

Even then it is vigilantism. Vigilantism can be both legal and illegal. All the it requires is for a civilian to take the law within his own hands. Which is exactly what the CE does. It is vigilantism in its purest form.

[Wulfram]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Not if it is necessary to stop the rape.  Which it is in the CE origin.

Even then it is vigilantism. Vigilantism can be both legal and illegal. All the it requires is for a civilian to take the law within his own hands. Which is exactly what the CE does. It is vigilantism in its purest form.

I don't think getting into too much of a semantic debate is useful

Would you accept that there is a clear difference between killing someone to stop a rape and killing someone in vengeance?  Under modern law, the first is justified homicide and the second is murder.

[EmperorSahlertz]

There is indeed. And I don't hold the CE at fault for killing him. Quite the contrary actually. This whole arguement started with Crossroads_Wanderer decrying vigilantism, then supporting it in another case.

I'd say that both killings are justifiable. Since the city guards had no interrest in solving either crimes.

[Well]

Dormiglione wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

Dormiglione wrote...
They converted to the Qun. What the elves did was self justice because the corrupted guards violated an elve woman. Aveline said, she heard some rumor, but that should be investigated. Again passive.

Crossroads_Wanderer wrote...
Self-justice is just a softer term for vigilantism. In this case, the law enforcers were wrong, but the law was not. Murder is not right and they committed murder. If the elves felt that it was important to make a statement about the legal injustice, they should have practiced civil disobedience and submitted to punishment. Instead, they come off as remorseless killers who think themselves above the law because they kill and then do not accept proper punishment for it. And, yes, I think Aveline was very much wrong in that situation and was surprisingly often bad at her job.

I'm gonna play the devil's advocate here. Have you ever played the City Elf origin back in DAO? This is the exact same situtaion. Would you honestly have allowed your City Elf to submit to punishment by the Denerim city guard right there and then?

Yes, i think i made 10+ playthroughs in Origins. I made playthrough with a male city elf and a playthrough with a female city elf.
And the Origin of the female city elf was "very upsetting"? It wasnt shown what happened, but it implied that my female city elf (warden) was violated by these "nobles".
So, its an absolute other point of view. Because as a female city elf, you were humiliated by this "nobles".

Shianni was the only one violated.One girl was slain outright for refusing to go.The rest including the pc were to be saved for later.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Qunari had the strength when Kirkwall has one of the only two Circles of Magi in the Free Marches? If we look at the Chantry's own history, it was the Circle of Magi that was "the greatest advantage" that the Chantry led forces had against the Qunari in the New Exalted Marches.

Yes. The mages of Thedas are no longer the advantage they used to be against the Qunari. The Qunari have trained their own mages to match the power of Thedas', and the Arishok brought quite a few Saarebas with him. The advantage you speak of is just that: Historical fact, no longer true.

Where is it mentioned the Qunari trained the Saarebas to match the talents of the Circle mages?

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

As long as the elves are men, because if they're women, they can't possibly be warriors or even mages since they are women.

Men and women under the Qun are treated equally. A woman can't be a warrior, but a man can't be a priest. They share an equal amount of restrictions.

In the words of The Warden, it sounds oppressive.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's a lie to say they are waiting for a ship when they are searching for an artifact, since no ship is coming (as the Arishok points out to Hawke towards the end of Blackpowder Courtesy).

Except it is not a lie. They are waiting for a ship to come. The ship they are waiting for isn't enroute yet, but that doesn't mean they aren't waiting for it to happen.

You're contradicting what the Arishok tells Hawke; he explicitly says there is no ship coming, and that there is no escape from duty to the Qun.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The guards weren't prepared for a sneak attack that was planned years in advance, especially when the templars make an effort to be the only authority in Kirkwall with any real power.

Perhaps they should have been, given the rise of tensions over the years. You just further prove that the Qunari could take Kirkwall if it weren't for Hawke, due to the fractured nature of Kirkwall's military command.

I'm sure they were a little busy dealing with their daily duties, rampant crime, and the tensions between templars and mages.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Couldn't it be similarly argued that the Arishok owes the leadership of Kirkwall for similarly not killing the Qunari outright, then?

If they had had the power, yes. They didn't. The Arishok owes Kirkwall nothing.

You mean like an army of templars and the entire Circle of Kirkwall at their disposal? You seem to repeatedly inject your own theories as facts into this discussion. There's a treaty with the Qunari, and attacking the Qunari who landed, as well as the Arishok, may provoke a war because of the Llomerryn Accord.