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[Crossroads_Wanderer]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So vigilantism is okay in some cases?

If you consider that killing in self defense is technically a form of vigilantism, then yes, there are certain circumstances in which it is acceptable. As I mentioned, when there is an immediate threat, vigilantism is justified. The city guard was not an immediate threat, so killing him was an overreaction and was not justified.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

There is indeed. And I don't hold the CE at fault for killing him. Quite the contrary actually. This whole arguement started with Crossroads_Wanderer decrying vigilantism, then supporting it in another case.

I'd say that both killings are justifiable. Since the city guards had no interrest in solving either crimes.

Except that I clarified my position in the post you responded to above. I pointed out that there was good reason to kill Vaughan in the CE origin, but that there wasn't in the case of the elves killing the city guard.

[dragonflight288]

And I honestly can't think of anything to rebut that point. The City Elf Warden commits a greater offense as the person killed is a nobleman. Heir to the arling.

But I can honestly sympathize with those elves. If the guards refuse to listen to them because a guard raped their sister, chances are that Aveline won't be getting the news because the guards involved don't want her to know because she will crack down on them. She admits there are rumors, and she can't punish a guard based on gossip.

And we've seen the magistrate constantly letting his son off the hook, despite dozens of elven women being murdered, because the magistrate is either protecting his son or protecting his own position by avoiding the scandal of having a family member tried as a murderer.

The elves don't get any justice in Kirkwall. I think they were wrong, but I can understand them.

And I can see the Arishok using the situation to attack the heart of the problem, nobles feeding constantly on the poor people, only complaining when their meal is interrupted, basking in their corrupted system as it keeps them powerful. The Arishok and the Qunari may seem like the only hope to the elves.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Crossroads_Wanderer wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So vigilantism is okay in some cases?

If you consider that killing in self defense is technically a form of vigilantism, then yes, there are certain circumstances in which it is acceptable. As I mentioned, when there is an immediate threat, vigilantism is justified. The city guard was not an immediate threat, so killing him was an overreaction and was not justified.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

There is indeed. And I don't hold the CE at fault for killing him. Quite the contrary actually. This whole arguement started with Crossroads_Wanderer decrying vigilantism, then supporting it in another case.

I'd say that both killings are justifiable. Since the city guards had no interrest in solving either crimes.

Except that I clarified my position in the post you responded to above. I pointed out that there was good reason to kill Vaughan in the CE origin, but that there wasn't in the case of the elves killing the city guard.

So vigilantism is okay, or even the right choice, in some cases?

[dragonflight288]

What is right isn't necessarily what's easy. There are exceptions to every rule, so yes, vigilantism is all right in some cases, but not most.

In the case of the two elves defending their sister's honor....correct motive, wrong action. They at least should submit themselves to justice because murder is murder.

[Crossroads_Wanderer]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So vigilantism is okay, or even the right choice, in some cases?

Yes. As much of a hard-ass as I may sound like, I do believe that sometimes the right action or, at least, the best action, is based in circumstance.

However, as I have explained, the circumstances do not warrant the actions of the elves who killed the guard.

[Wulfram]

What I'd have done with the elves is to have Hawke quietly smuggle them out of the city. Fugitives taking refuge with the Qunari in the city is a challenge to Kirkwall justice which cannot be allowed. Fugitives who simply run away are a normal occurance of little import - and if they really want to join the Qun, then they can make their way to Par Vollen.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Then who gets to decide when vigilantism is okay and when it isn't? Is there a guideline to that, or is it all then just based on someone's gutfeeling? And if there is a guideline, shouldn't it just be incorporated into the law, and then keep the rest of it illegal?
That is the problem with vigilantism.

[Well]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Then who gets to decide when vigilantism is okay and when it isn't? Is there a guideline to that, or is it all then just based on someone's gutfeeling? And if there is a guideline, shouldn't it just be incorporated into the law, and then keep the rest of it illegal?
That is the problem with vigilantism.

Actually that  was the only time I sided with Arishok.What the elfs did was right.There was no justice for them.In DAO Vahn was toast also.Even when I didnt have a elf.I killed him in the cell.Call it what you want.He was a rabid dog and needed to be put down.

[Dormiglione]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Then who gets to decide when vigilantism is okay and when it isn't? Is there a guideline to that, or is it all then just based on someone's gutfeeling? And if there is a guideline, shouldn't it just be incorporated into the law, and then keep the rest of it illegal?
That is the problem with vigilantism.

Its really simple: follow your heart. When you come along a situation where civil courage is needed its you who decide what you will do. And based on your action you are moving in a grey zone.

[EmperorSahlertz]

From a personal point of view I can see the purpose of vigilantism. From a societal point of view however, it is never a good thing.

[dragonflight288]

And that's what makes the debate so fun since everyone can see both sides.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Well, I'm just too much of a society-supporter to let my own desires and needs "threaten" society, I guess

[KnightofPhoenix]

We have to remember the context. Kirkwall is virtually lawless. Its civil government is failing, its guards are useless despite Aveline's efforts, gangs roam infest its streets, the Templars are too busy catching mages...etc.

There was no real law enforcement that the elves could have appealed to. And in such a case, I find vigilantism perfectly acceptable, and I think the Arishok doesn't mind it because he sees it as a symptom of Kirkwall's ****tyness.

[Wulfram]

Aveline's "After the deep roads" codex states that "She has removed the stain of Captain Jeven's corruption and turned the guardsmen into effective enforcers of law and order "
so the Kirkwall guard isn't supposed to be useless, despite how it may sometimes appear in the game.

Of course, it's understandable that the elves wouldn't have yet developed much trust for it, particularly in the circumstances.

Modifié par Wulfram, 10 juin 2011 - 04:23 .

[sphinxess]

The Arishok shut down any investigation to see if there was a corrupt guard. All we really know is what the 2 Elves tell the Arishok, its not even first hand information, if they had actually killed the guard to steal his armor or something Im sure they would have been honest and told the truth <yeah right>. What gives him the right to do so? He is not part of a embassy - no matter his rank he is just supposed to just be part of a group of <supposdly> shipwrecked soldiers and sailors.

But thats the whole problem - they are like a bunch of spoiled children using their belief in the Qun to allow them more than anyone else <we get to keep anyone that converts no matter what the crime plus get to grab anyone that isn't part of the Qun <Isabella> if they commit a crime against us.

They don't feel any laws of Kirkwall apply to them - however they won't clean up their own messes like the Tal-vashoth attacking caravans <oh no those aren't our people anymore>

His lie by omission that they were waiting for a ship works for the first year - most of the attacks against his group occur after everyone realizes that they aren't planning to leave at all, yet he wont tell anyone what they really need to find

So why respect him? He's like a cult leader - very convinced he knows the right way to live life - thats enough for some people..

[EmperorSahlertz]

You realize the Qunari ARE fighting the Tal-Vasoth outside Kirkwall, right?

And again he isn't lying about the ship. He is waiting for an eventual ship to finally bring him home. There isn't a ship comming, but he is waiting for one show up.
And he doesn't tell anyone about his MO because that would be more than a little bit stupid, to tell a city full of fanatics that there was a heretical script somewhere within the city.
Nor does he allow anyone but the Qunari to judge the Qunari, which the Elves uses to their immediate advantage, but I doubt the Qun have any illustrious roles waiting for a couple of killers.

[Wulfram]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Nor does he allow anyone but the Qunari to judge the Qunari, which the Elves uses to their immediate advantage, but I doubt the Qun have any illustrious roles waiting for a couple of killers.

Why?  The Arishok clearly has no problems with killing Kirkwall guards.

[EmperorSahlertz]

He killed them because they stood in the way of capturing Hawke.
And what the Elves did was a remarkable show of self-justice, spurred by a desire for vengeance. Selfishnes. Not exactly a prized character trait amongst the Qunari. Those Elves did not have a bright future to look forward to in the Qun.

[Wulfram]

They were unable to remain blind to the "dysfunction" of the Kirkwall system, and took steps to rectify an injustice. They had far more justification for their killing than the Arishok had for the murder of the guardsmen accompanying Hawke and Aveline.

Modifié par Wulfram, 10 juin 2011 - 07:11 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Well the Qunari were unable to remain passive too you know. They are commited to the Qun and believe their philosophy superior to all others. Then they find themselves in the most dysfunctional cesspit of a city Thedas has to offer, and they can't really do anything about it, even though they "know" they have the answer to Kirkwalls problems.

[dragonflight288]

Just like the Dalish Elves being the last elves...the chantry with the chant of light, the dwarves and their paragons, everyone thinks their way is superior to everyone else.

I like to think of their section of Kirkwall like an embassy in a real life country. The moment you set foot in that embassy, you are essentially in another country. If that were the case, then the Arishok did have legal rights to keep the elves. Which is why Aveline was asking him to return them.

[EmperorSahlertz]

True. But I don't think they have quite as elaborate diplomatic laws in Thedas ;-) They seem more like a "might makes right" kind of people.

[dragonflight288]

I happen to agree with that. They were there to look for the tome, not to conquer. If they showed up wanting to take Kirkwall, the game would have been very different as they simply would. But the qunari did have diplomats meeting the viscount. Only Sister Petrice arranged for the diplomats to be kidnapped, tortured, and executed. And repeatedly preached hatred against the qunari.

The Qunari were respecting the laws, the locals weren't. After three years, they simply lost patience.

[sphinxess]

simfamSP wrote...

The Arishock ways are alien to us. That is why we do not understand him. He is neither Muslim, Christian, Jewish etc... he is different. I respect him because of his character, though his decisions were not the wisest, the thorn at his side - The Chantry. Weren't helping anyway.

I think he could have taken the city. If it weren't for Hawke. He had most of the nobles in one room. And the Templars would probably argue with the mages in between all this chaos.

"Yes messengers. He was willing to wait 3+ years doing nothing. He
could have waited a few more months to tell the others of his plans, see
if they agree with him, request reinforcements to successfully invade
Kirkwall. His actions affect all Qunari and he carries great
responsibilty as a result. He should not make such important decisions
in haste without the other leaders of his people having a say."

You are correct, but again, as I've said before. His ways are alien, we would never understand him I think. That's why he's such a great character.

The only Nobles he has in the room are the ones in that single building he didnt have the forces to sweep the Noble district - their personal guards alone would have handled a few hundred.

His forces last about as long as expected - a few hours once he attacks. I always got the idea it was a intentional suicide once he realizes the book has left the city with Isabela. Its game mechanics that makes Kirkwall look like a town with only 1-2000 people.