638 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Face it peeps, Arishok did an epic fail on multiple accounts. He deserves no respect.

Neither does anyone in DA2.

[Dean_the_Young]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

So the de facto ruler of Kirkwall does not care about an armed force of Qunari "heathens" with undeclared intentions and devastating weapons, neither does she care about the implications of what the fanatics amongst her own rank are doing?

Her incompetence is fascinating.

While Meredith had power, I don't think it would be right to say she wanted to rule Kirkwall. Not until afterwards, at least.

Until the Qunari invasion, I always saw Meredith as viewing the Templar role as similar to President Andrew Jackson's view of the Presidency: absolute in power, but narrow in scope. Maintaining the power she did was in pursuit of maintaining her desired status quo, and no more.

In such, she may not have cared, and seen it more as someone else's problem (which she would clean up if it came to that, but would not be proactive in).

[Fast Jimmy]

I completely disagree with this argument of logic.

Who, exactly, would have stopped the Arishok? The city guard had proven themselves completely ineffectual against his forces. The Templars and the Circle were making very little headway and even stated themselves that they would stand little chance attempting to attack the Viscount's Keep directly while the Qunari held it, resorting to a Hail Mary pass strategy of distracting the front guards to get Hawke in.

After the defeat of the Templars, the Divine may have gotten involved, but if you honestly think that a religious bureaucracy could respond with a strong, coordinated effort of reinforcements faster than the Arishok, leader of all the Qunari military forces and access to an army of strongly devoted military experts from Par Vollen, I think you may be misconstruing the situation.

The Arishok was well on his way to securing Kirkwall until he foolishly challenged Hawke. The Arishok proclaimed to all the leaders and most military heads of Kirkwall that Hawke was the only one in the whole city who was a worthy rival, a most true statement.

The Arishok is no more a stupid leader than the Reapers are inept at wiping out all galactic life. They just didn't take into consideration how the abilities and danger one powerful individual can drastically change the playing field.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
While Meredith had power, I don't think it would be right to say she wanted to rule Kirkwall. Not until afterwards, at least.

She was already ruling it de facto even if she didn't want it.

Until the Qunari invasion, I always saw Meredith as viewing the Templar role as similar to President Andrew Jackson's view of the Presidency: absolute in power, but narrow in scope. Maintaining the power she did was in pursuit of maintaining her desired status quo, and no more.

I'd say hundreds of armed Qunari, a lot of conversions, and fanatics amongst Chantry ranks trying to provoke war is quite destablilizing to the status quo.

In such, she may not have cared, and seen it more as someone else's problem (which she would clean up if it came to that, but would not be proactive in).

Like who? Weak Dumar? Inactive Elthina? The Guards whom the Templars outnumber and overpower?

Doesn't really change my mind of her being incompetent. She was the most powerful force in Kirkwall and whether she wanted it or not, her involvement in politics also entails a lot of responsabilities that no one else is capable of performing at the moment, in large part because of her involvement in politics in the first place (and the Chantry implicitly agreeing on a weak Viscount, a weakened military force for Kirkwall..etc).

[rak72]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Face it peeps, Arishok did an epic fail on multiple accounts. He deserves no respect.

Neither does anyone in DA2.

I respect Cullen.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
After the defeat of the Templars, the Divine may have gotten involved, but if you honestly think that a religious bureaucracy could respond with a strong, coordinated effort of reinforcements faster than the Arishok, leader of all the Qunari military forces and access to an army of strongly devoted military experts from Par Vollen, I think you may be misconstruing the situation.

Orlais and Nevarra are just around and they'd move in. Kirkwall is a key commercial hub in the Waking sea, why would Nevarra and Orlais ever tolerate it falling in qunari hands? Plus, it's an opportunty to spread influence.
They are closer to Kirkwall than Par Vollen is.

Second, that's assuming that the other 2 Qunari leaders are willing to start a war just for the Arishok, who unilateraly broke the treaty without their consent. Why would they? For the tome? They tolerated it being in Orlesian hands for a century. Are they preparing for a war soon? Probably, but 3 years after Act 2, they still didn't do anything, so it's unlikely that they think they are ready yet.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 25 mai 2011 - 12:52 .

[Rifneno]

Xilizhra wrote...

And if the darkspawn are sentient now?

Hmm.  Good point.  ****ing Architect.  *sigh*  Where's a good old fashioned doomsday asteroid when you need one?

[Realmzmaster]

Whether the Arishok deserves respect or not is debatable. The facts are he cannot go home without the tome. The Qun demands it. It just like Sten in DAO. He could not go home without his sword. He would be killed on sight for being soulless.

The Arishok's would be dead if he returned home without the tome. In fact his own men may have killed him for dereliction of duty if he ordered them to abandon the quest.

The Viscount gave the Quanri the compund so he could keep an eye on them rather than having them move at will through the city and establishing different stations.

The Aristok knew he had no chance at winning and that reinforcements were to far away. If he could not recover the tome he would go out in a blaze of glory as demanded by the Qun. I guess he thought today was a good day to die.

As for Quanri following different laws there was only one law for them and that was the Qun. Nothing else mattered.
The tome was not divine since they serve no deity, but for all intents and purposes it is the same. It is their most scared book. The tome is the foundation of everything Quanri. Therefore to them it is valuable beyond belief. The Arishok even states that it would be easier to sift through the ashes of the city to find it. So he was ready to level the city if necessary.

Others here stated that there are other copies of the book. The difference is if this is the original then all other copies must be made from it. Some cultures do not allow a copy to be made from a copy. All copies must be made from the original. I suspect the reason he did not use explosives is that he did not want to destroy the tome.
Gas could have possible been used  and kill off all the human population, but do not know what effect it would have on dwarves or elfs. The Arishok specifically states that the poison affects your kind when speaking to Hawke.
The Arishok is an interesting villian and every hero is defined by the villian faced.

[Dean_the_Young]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
While Meredith had power, I don't think it would be right to say she wanted to rule Kirkwall. Not until afterwards, at least.

She was already ruling it de facto even if she didn't want it.

Not quite. Ruling implies management, and its clear she leaves the primary management to the Viscount.  Even so, however, attitude is everything to leadership.

I'd say hundreds of armed Qunari, a lot of conversions, and fanatics amongst Chantry ranks trying to provoke war is quite destablilizing to the status quo.

To an extent yes, to an extent no. When the Qunari moved, she was ready to respond.

But the Qunari also had history, both in terms of being there and not causing problem despite practicing their ways, and in terms of opposition.  Depending on the time frame, the events that led to the uprising could have been exceptionally paced or incredibly short.

Not, of course, that they disprove or even imply that Meredith had no eyes watching the situation. Only that Hawke never comes across them.

Like who? Weak Dumar? Inactive Elthina? The Guards whom the Templars outnumber and overpower?

Resolve politically? Things were looking to be getting better until the end: there had always been tensions, but there was also the recent attempt to visit the Viscount. There may well still could have been.

Doesn't really change my mind of her being incompetent. She was the most powerful force in Kirkwall and whether she wanted it or not, her involvement in politics also entails a lot of responsabilities that no one else is capable of performing at the moment, in large part because of her involvement in politics in the first place (and the Chantry implicitly agreeing on a weak Viscount, a weakened military force for Kirkwall..etc).

I'd dispute that it's a sign of incompetence, rather a difference in perceived responsibilities. I have a hard time holding people to informal, subjective standards (like 'de fact authority' responsibilities).

[In Exile]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I am not sure respect is what I feel towards him (especially since in retrospect, his plan doesn't make much sense to me). But rather me being intrigued.

I think the idea is that he's a petulant child. He torches Kirkwall to hide his own failure and self-loathing for that failure.

And as a character, I found him vastly more interesting than the others. and  enjoyed our talks with him and seeing him develop as a character (unlike say Orsino and Meredith).

That's because he, well, develops as a character (though Meredith does okay for herself until she inhales some crazy with the idol).

[KnightofPhoenix]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Not quite. Ruling implies management, and its clear she leaves the primary management to the Viscount.  Even so, however, attitude is everything to leadership.

Day to day affairs maybe. On the important things, like I don't know, handling external enemies? She's the only one capable of handling such things (she made sure of it).

To an extent yes, to an extent no. When the Qunari moved, she was ready to respond.

She should have been more enthusiatic about preventing. Like keeping people like Petrice in line as Dumar is not equipped to handle it.

Not, of course, that they disprove or even imply that Meredith had no eyes watching the situation. Only that Hawke never comes across them.

I sinsicerily hope so because she can't get any more incompetent than this.

Resolve politically? Things were looking to be getting better until the
end: there had always been tensions, but there was also the recent
attempt to visit the Viscount. There may well still could have been.

I dont' see her caring about stopping Petrice and her Templar BF.
I hope she was at least trying.

Furthermore, that arrangement would havbe only been temporary. But that's not MEredith's fault. The Qunari are not interested in revealing why they are there.

I'd dispute that it's a sign of incompetence, rather a difference in perceived responsibilities. I have a hard time holding people to informal, subjective standards (like 'de fact authority' responsibilities).

Except it's not subjective. If she and the Chantry made sure they have a weak viscount and a weakened military force in Kirkwall, while making the Templars the most powerful force in the city. Then they are objectively the best suited to handle such a situation.

If they don't want to have this responsability, then they should know their place, withdraw from politics, allow Kirkwall to rebuild its military force adequately and allow for the election of a stronger Viscount to handle the affaris that they don't want to handle.

If they want to have that kind of power, they better accept the responsabilities that come with it. If not, yes it is incompetence. One that may have cost hundreds of lives.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 25 mai 2011 - 01:44 .

[Abispa]

Xilizhra wrote...

Since the Arishok wasn't a mage or harboring any, I doubt Meredith could care less.

I do believe Meredith's grand entrance in Act 2 was her running a Sarabas through with her sword.

[Xilizhra]

Abispa wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Since the Arishok wasn't a mage or harboring any, I doubt Meredith could care less.

I do believe Meredith's grand entrance in Act 2 was her running a Sarabas through with her sword.

Well, the actual attack finally led to her admitting that maybe this was a greater danger than the currently imprisoned mages, so she pulled herself out of the Gallows, though it seemed to be reluctant.

[Rifneno]

Xilizhra wrote...

Abispa wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Since the Arishok wasn't a mage or harboring any, I doubt Meredith could care less.

I do believe Meredith's grand entrance in Act 2 was her running a Sarabas through with her sword.

Well, the actual attack finally led to her admitting that maybe this was a greater danger than the currently imprisoned mages, so she pulled herself out of the Gallows, though it seemed to be reluctant.

And she had the best line of the entire quest.  "These creatures will pay for this outrage!"  You know things are bad when Meredith is the good guy.  Lord.

BTW, random thought since we're on the subject of saarebas.  That whole line about "not even your templars understand the extent of the danger"... anyone else wonder what that was all about?  More mad hornbeast ravings, or is there something we don't know?  Perhaps either kossith mages have something more dangerous that other races don't, or they've encountered some unique omnidemon that other races haven't.

[In Exile]

Rifneno wrote...
BTW, random thought since we're on the subject of saarebas.  That whole line about "not even your templars understand the extent of the danger"... anyone else wonder what that was all about?  More mad hornbeast ravings, or is there something we don't know?  Perhaps either kossith mages have something more dangerous that other races don't, or they've encountered some unique omnidemon that other races haven't.

No, that was just a "You don't sew up their mouths, so obviously you aren't taking the dangers of magic seriously' type deals. IMO.

[Wye]

Because they can easily be provoked.

[KnightofPhoenix]

In Exile wrote...

Rifneno wrote...
BTW, random thought since we're on the subject of saarebas.  That whole line about "not even your templars understand the extent of the danger"... anyone else wonder what that was all about?  More mad hornbeast ravings, or is there something we don't know?  Perhaps either kossith mages have something more dangerous that other races don't, or they've encountered some unique omnidemon that other races haven't.

No, that was just a "You don't sew up their mouths, so obviously you aren't taking the dangers of magic seriously' type deals. IMO.

Origins gave the impression that the Qunari are very logical, but really in DA2, they're acting like superstitious morons. I mean, hearing a mage talk makes you a potential threat to be killed immediately? What about all the other Qunari right behind you who heard him as well you moron.

[Abispa]

In Exile wrote...

Rifneno wrote...
BTW, random thought since we're on the subject of saarebas.  That whole line about "not even your templars understand the extent of the danger"... anyone else wonder what that was all about?  More mad hornbeast ravings, or is there something we don't know?  Perhaps either kossith mages have something more dangerous that other races don't, or they've encountered some unique omnidemon that other races haven't.

No, that was just a "You don't sew up their mouths, so obviously you aren't taking the dangers of magic seriously' type deals. IMO.

The Qunari have been at war with the Tevinter Imperium for centuries, and they probably have more experience than anyone with being the target of mages who aren't bound by the Chantry. Fenris said that mages in Tevinter practically brag about using blood magic, and while Kirkwall shows the damage a blood mage can do untrained or with limited resources, the blood mages of Tevinter would be another thing entirely. Also, the Rivani have been ruled by the Qunari for years, and seers within that culture OPENLY allow themselves to become abominations according to the codex. Though it's not clear how a planned abomination differs from hostile takeover since the only two examples we have are Anders and (possibly) Flemeth.

[Abispa]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Rifneno wrote...
BTW, random thought since we're on the subject of saarebas.  That whole line about "not even your templars understand the extent of the danger"... anyone else wonder what that was all about?  More mad hornbeast ravings, or is there something we don't know?  Perhaps either kossith mages have something more dangerous that other races don't, or they've encountered some unique omnidemon that other races haven't.

No, that was just a "You don't sew up their mouths, so obviously you aren't taking the dangers of magic seriously' type deals. IMO.

Origins gave the impression that the Qunari are very logical, but really in DA2, they're acting like superstitious morons. I mean, hearing a mage talk makes you a potential threat to be killed immediately? What about all the other Qunari right behind you who heard him as well you moron.

Wow, don't tell that to the farmers who found Sten without his sword.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Abispa wrote...
Wow, don't tell that to the farmers who found Sten without his sword.

But he admits it's a mistake and he is very regretful to have lost it like this. Immediately after in fact (hence why he did't run). 

[Rifneno]

Abispa wrote...

The Qunari have been at war with the Tevinter Imperium for centuries, and they probably have more experience than anyone with being the target of mages who aren't bound by the Chantry. Fenris said that mages in Tevinter practically brag about using blood magic, and while Kirkwall shows the damage a blood mage can do untrained or with limited resources, the blood mages of Tevinter would be another thing entirely. Also, the Rivani have been ruled by the Qunari for years, and seers within that culture OPENLY allow themselves to become abominations according to the codex. Though it's not clear how a planned abomination differs from hostile takeover since the only two examples we have are Anders and (possibly) Flemeth.

Don't forget Wynne.  I'd be downright shocked if Flemeth was an abomination really.

The problem with Tevinter is their ethics, the fact they have no concern for others.  Not their blood magic.  Blood magic can be good.  It's just that the Chantry has condemned it because they fear it, and so the only people we see using it are criminals.

[Abispa]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Abispa wrote...
Wow, don't tell that to the farmers who found Sten without his sword.

But he admits it's a mistake and he is very regretful to have lost it like this. Immediately after in fact (hence why he did't run). 

He went insane because, in his "very logical" culture depicted in DA:O, he would be known as "soulless" and "deserter" because no longer had possession of a piece of metal.

Modifié par Abispa, 25 mai 2011 - 03:06 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Abispa wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Abispa wrote...
Wow, don't tell that to the farmers who found Sten without his sword.

But he admits it's a mistake and he is very regretful to have lost it like this. Immediately after in fact (hence why he did't run). 

He went insane because, in his "highly logical" culture depicted in DA:O, he would be known as "soulless" and "deserter" because no longer had possession of a piece of metal.

Because he was careless enough to lose his custom made weapon in hostile lands.

But ok I concede, maybe they were not very logical. But still, I didn't get the impression they were as superstitious as DA2 made it look like.

[Abispa]

Rifneno wrote...

Abispa wrote...

The Qunari have been at war with the Tevinter Imperium for centuries, and they probably have more experience than anyone with being the target of mages who aren't bound by the Chantry. Fenris said that mages in Tevinter practically brag about using blood magic, and while Kirkwall shows the damage a blood mage can do untrained or with limited resources, the blood mages of Tevinter would be another thing entirely. Also, the Rivani have been ruled by the Qunari for years, and seers within that culture OPENLY allow themselves to become abominations according to the codex. Though it's not clear how a planned abomination differs from hostile takeover since the only two examples we have are Anders and (possibly) Flemeth.

Don't forget Wynne.  I'd be downright shocked if Flemeth was an abomination really.

The problem with Tevinter is their ethics, the fact they have no concern for others.  Not their blood magic.  Blood magic can be good.  It's just that the Chantry has condemned it because they fear it, and so the only people we see using it are criminals.

Morrigan does say in Witch Hunt that Flemeth isn't an abomination, but I took that to mean 1) that she's moved way beyond the abomination that Morrigan originally said she was, or 2) since Flemeth has been resurrected at least once, the abomination status doesn't apply to her new life.

And I wasn't talking about the ethics of Tevinter or of blood magic, only on their power and effectiveness in use against the Qunari in the centuries old war.

EDIT: Oh, yeah, I did forget about Wynne.

Modifié par Abispa, 25 mai 2011 - 03:13 .