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[HSHAW]

blothulfur wrote...

Anaan esaam Qun.

You listen not to the wisdom of the Qun but heed the ravings of one lyrium touched, I despair for the bas and sometimes think you are beyond enlightenment. But worry not the Qun shall endure and conquer even prophecy, this is a constant in an ever changing world.

Ataash qunari.

I'm still looking for the "convert to the Qun" dialogue option.

[Fast Jimmy]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Chugster wrote...

i lost all respect when he asked me to hand over Izzy to answer for her crime, right after he refused to hand over 2 elves to answer for their crimes, i really hate hypocrites and relish taking that horned **** down

Good point. Arishok is a cowardly hypocrite on so many levels.

T o be fair, the elves had a much better reason to do what they did than Isabella did to steal the Tome.


People are also to quick to criticize the Arishok about taking the Tome and leaving. The Arishok are usually not too sentimental. They have no known religious artifacts. Why should we assume, then, that the Tome is just an artifact?

I and others have suggested that the Tome has either power or knowledge that the Orlesian Chantry didn't know how to use or unlock in the centuries they owned it and that the Qunari want it back because it represents an extreme leg up in battle, allowing them to spread the influence of the Qun.

After all, let's not forget... the Qunari lost the Tome in their last attempt to conquer Thedas. They haven't taken one attempt to break that treaty and attack the other countries since then. I suggest that losing the Tome was the reason the Qunari signed the peace treaty in the first place. With the Tome back in their possession, they could go back to the Ariqun, have her unlock its power/secrets, and resume their directive to bring the world under the Qun.

Giving up Kirkwall, one city in all of Thedas, to gain the ability to resume world domination, is a no-brainer. To assume someone is an idiot, you assume that you know more than they do. Which may very well not be the case. We only know what Bioware has told us so far.

[Xilizhra]

The Arishok are usually not too sentimental.

Except for the whole "asala" thing with the Warden's Sten, which seems to be a recurring pattern.

[Fast Jimmy]

The Asala is also a weapon, valued because of its function in war.

I would say, if anything, that strengthens my case.

[blothulfur]

Anaan esaam Qun.

The dwarf Varrics lies hide the true path of wisdom and submission to freedom that Hawke chose when he left Kirkwall aboard the dreadnoughts that waited for our Arishoks homecoming, he rose to power through sacrificing his previous life and becoming a champion of the Qun.

In the beresaad Hawke strives and struggles to make a better world free of the petty politics of Kirkwall and its innefectual templars and whining mages. Welcome home brother here in Par Vollen you have purpose and an honoured place equal amongst us.

Ataash qunari.

[Chugster]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Chugster wrote...

i lost all respect when he asked me to hand over Izzy to answer for her crime, right after he refused to hand over 2 elves to answer for their crimes, i really hate hypocrites and relish taking that horned **** down

Good point. Arishok is a cowardly hypocrite on so many levels.

T o be fair, the elves had a much better reason to do what they did than Isabella did to steal the Tome.

true, but they did break the law...and Hawke would have seen to it that they had a fair trial...but he still refused to give up what we considered to be criminals and then demanded us to give up what he considered a criminal...

mitigating cercumstances aside...he was still a hypocrite...he ignored our rules and then expects us to follow his?

[Fast Jimmy]

Chugster wrote...

mitigating cercumstances aside...he was still a hypocrite...he ignored our rules and then expects us to follow his?

Pretty much.

But at the end of the day, Hawke is standing there defending a criminal hussy who steals invaluable relgious artifiacts and the Arishok is defending criminals who suffered extreme injustice and whom the human system of laws had completely failed.

He had no qualms about not taking the law into his own hands when humans broke their own laws to kill Kossith Qunari. But new recruits are often seen as young children in the eyes of the Qun. Sacrificing soldiers to maintain diplomacy is acceptable in the Qun, though not preferable. Handing over "children" of the Qun, who are simply civilians until their role is decided, to guards of a justice system that has shown racist and unfair treatment of the elven race time and time again would be putting those children at risk.

I'm curious as to what happened to these elves once the smoke cleared after Act 2. It never mentions them, but I wonder if they left with the Qunari, or were locked up and executed by the humans who promised them a fair trial.

[Speakeasy13]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Lets see. He ambushes and kills a peaceful diplomatic party when he declares war, something honourable civilized beings would not do. He brutally murders the Viscount, despite the Viscount appeasing him ever since he landed in Kirkwall. Then there's the fact that he declares war at all and decides to take over the city where he is a guest just because he hasn't managed to find an unrelated book and he doesn't like the society. There is no logic at all behind such a move, he had no chance of taking over and this would be viewed as a declaration of war, meaning Thedas would go to war with the Qunari again. He didn't consult with the other 2 leaders of his people over this decision and just got blinded by rage and took matters into his own hands, ultimately leading to his humiliating death or withdrawal and no good accomplished whatsoever, though a serious blow to Qunari reputation and morale.

So why do people respect him?

Personally I respect him out of the simple principle of cultural relativism. That he was the spiritual leader of his people, whose culture is different from mine. That alone is enough for me to respect him. And to disrespect him will be viewed as to disrespect the Qunari culture as a whole. They do not function under the same cultural assumptions as ours, and we should not analyze his actions using our logic and morality. They're different, and we just have to respect those differences.

I guess the real life parallel will be I can never understand the Islamic logic and morality when it comes to gender equality and indvidualism (but then again I could never understand certain Christian values either). But I'd just have to respect that Muslims believe in different things than me, and my values aren't always better, no matter how much I believe in them.

[Skilled Seeker]

Speakeasy13 wrote...
Personally I respect him out of the simple principle of cultural relativism. That he was the spiritual leader of his people, whose culture is different from mine. That alone is enough for me to respect him. And to disrespect him will be viewed as to disrespect the Qunari culture as a whole. They do not function under the same cultural assumptions as ours, and we should not analyze his actions using our logic and morality. They're different, and we just have to respect those differences.

Well the Arishok certainly didn't respect the culture of Kirkwall or it's leaders. Respect is earned not given and it has to be mutual.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I know it's kind of nitpicky but the Arishok isn't the spiritual leader of the Qunari, that's the Ariqun. Presumably she's back in Par Vollen. The Arishok is supposed to be more like their military leader.

[Speakeasy13]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Well the Arishok certainly didn't respect the culture of Kirkwall or it's leaders. Respect is earned not given and it has to be mutual.

How do we know? We weren't there when they made first contact. The same rule of respect "earned not given" can be applied to humans in general. It doesn't seem like we've done anything to earn the Arishock's respect either.

We have no control over what others do. We can only behave ourselves. Others' behavior is no justifcation at the end of the day for our own lack of cultural sensitivity. And certainly should not be used as an excuse.

Modifié par Speakeasy13, 25 mai 2011 - 02:20 .

[Nerdage]

Of all the crazy people Hawk kills, the Arishok's probably the tallest. That's my guess.

I didn't respect him, I thought he was delusional, him and the rest of those fanatics. Live and let live, I guess..

Well, you know.. Until they start killing everybody.

[Skilled Seeker]

Speakeasy13 wrote...

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Well the Arishok certainly didn't respect the culture of Kirkwall or it's leaders. Respect is earned not given and it has to be mutual.

How do we know? We weren't there when they made first contact. The same rule of respect "earned not given" can be applied to humans in general. It doesn't seem like we've done anything to earn the Arishock's respect either.

We have no control over what others do. We can only behave ourselves. Others' behavior is no justifcation at the end of the day for our own lack of cultural sensitivity. And certainly should not be used as an excuse.

I don't know about you but I don't respect people that don't show respect. Arishok acts like an arrogant douche the first time you meet him. It seems you believe everyone should be respected, regardless of their views or actions. In that case the thread isn't aimed at you unless the Arishok garners a special kind of respect from you.

[Dormiglione]

I respect the arishok for what he is and was. The arishok and the qunari didnt choose to go to kirkwall and stay there. It was because Isabella had stolen the tome.
The qunari stayed in Kirkwall, but they got attacked by the fanatics of the chantry, provocated by killing their negotiators who went to the viscount.
The arishok has a codex, he doesnt sell you apples and delivers then watermelons.
The Arishol attacked Kirkwall after he was told that Isabella fled again with the tome.

So what were his options? He couldnt go back to Par Vollen and none of the Qunari would leave the Arishok on his own. What he did was to sacrifice himself to allow the other Qunari to leave Kirkwall and go Home. Why did he attack Kirkwall? To conquer Kirkwall? No, he went on his own suicide mission, granting his people to be free to leave.

I can tell who has my full disrespect. Fenris, always whining, so much self-pity, i enjoyed to kill him in act3.

[brain_damage]

Have you SEEN the size of those horns? Any person who can walk up straight with those horns pn his head deserves unlimited amounts of respect.

[Sanarion]

Was I the only person who found the whole Elf thing a little...off? It wasn't a huge plot hole, more of a plot road-bump, but it surprised me that Aveline wouldn't have looked into that more. From the Codex, we know she was very effective in rooting out corruption in the guards, and "The guard were more trusted than ever before" or something like that. Aveline also isn't biased against elves, as seen by the fact she approves of killing Kelder, and allows the Elf Girl, Lia, to actually join the guard, something that has to be pretty new. I'd think she'd be quicker to act if one of her guardsmen had, in fact, raped a girl.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I guess the idea was that she's the highest authority in the corrupt guards ensured it was never brought all the way to her attention other than rumors.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 25 mai 2011 - 06:45 .

[Skilled Seeker]

Sanarion wrote...

Was I the only person who found the whole Elf thing a little...off? It wasn't a huge plot hole, more of a plot road-bump, but it surprised me that Aveline wouldn't have looked into that more. From the Codex, we know she was very effective in rooting out corruption in the guards, and "The guard were more trusted than ever before" or something like that. Aveline also isn't biased against elves, as seen by the fact she approves of killing Kelder, and allows the Elf Girl, Lia, to actually join the guard, something that has to be pretty new. I'd think she'd be quicker to act if one of her guardsmen had, in fact, raped a girl.

Yeah that whole scenario felt rather forced and rushed since it literally came out of the blue and there was no prequel quest to the event or anything Hawke could do about it. It was just the excuse the Arishok needed to go on his suicide run really, nothing more, nothing less.

Modifié par Skilled Seeker, 25 mai 2011 - 06:45 .

[Beerfish]

I have zero respect for the Arishok. I have more respect for the likes of Petrice, Meredith and Orsino.
He is an incompetent, bumbling loser that drinks too much, hides behind some kind of bizarre code that forgives all of his misdeeds and mistakes while absolutely blasting others that make the same or lesser mistakes. The 'Qun' morphs and changes to suit him on a day by day basis and is far from 'borders and certainty' that Ketojan talks about. I always enjoy saying out loud to the screen "You sure as hell won't be." when with his dying gasp he says 'We will return....' while pointing his claw at me. (Don't the Qunari cut their damn nails?)

[DiebytheSword]

I disagree with the Arishok philosophically, and that is to say I do not agree with what I have seen of the Qun. The man is, however, consistent with his moral code: he will do what he says he will do. There is no uncertainty when dealing with him, all of the characters in the game sense it too, they know exactly when he will blow his top. He pulls no punches, and does not lie. There are tragic circumstances that happen because of the inflexibility of the Qun and the mess that is Kirkwall, and death on both sides cannot fall only at his feet.

That said, I disagree with him, I believe his certainty is ham-fisted and inflexible, I see their civilization stagnating, and being the civilization that must fail rather than must be, but I will still respect him as a worthy advisary.

[dragonflight288]

If the qunari society is stagnating, but they have the best technology in the world, then how are they improving and inventing?

I guess that with Sten, the Arishok, all we see are the military parts of Qunari society. And they dedicate themselves entirely too their roles.

In Origins, Leliana and Sten have some fun banter, with Sten asking if she judged all qunari based off of him. She says that she did. She had been asking if the Qunari have music or art. He said they do. He's a soldier, That's his role. He focuses everything he is into being the best soldier he can be.

The Arishok is a military leader with a mission. He doesn't go to anyone for help for the same reasons he won't sell the explosive powder. It's his task to track down the tome and Isabella. Asking for help is a sign of weakness to his fellows. He will focus entirely on accomplishing the mission without help, then leave.

I personally want to travel to Par Vollen and see Qunari society with every role in sight before I make any decisions on converting to the Qun.

I respect the Arishok because of his honesty, dedication, and general toughness in battling him.

[Beerfish]

Does not lie? He is about as evasive as you can be on a regular basis. He lets the poisotn gas get stolen becauze he knows the cultprits will think it it gatlock. (He assumes it is Javaris doing it.)

The case of the elves and the viscounts son vs Isabela. Because it benenfits him he protects the elves and takes in Saemus and yet when it comes tiem to deal with isabela he wants to take her as well.

He blasts kirkwall for being a terrible den of inequity bit his tal vasoth are out roaming around robbing and killing but suddenly they do not fall under his responsiblity well, because they are not of the Qun.

He is extremely inconsistent, you never know where he stands on an issue until after the fact and because he is stern and speaks few words he hoodwinks people into thinking he is followng this 'code' that changes as it suits him.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I thought it was pretty clear where he stood on mots issues, and I figured dealing with his was fairly straightforward. He certainly doesn't respect Krikwall's laws and that inflexibility is a problem but he never really pretended that he did. The difference between the Tal'Vashoth and the fanatics is that they've abandoned his command and fled into the sword coast. The fanatics are still citizens of Kirkwall. There are a great deal of human raiders and bandits along the sword coast as well but I don't remember him holding the Viscount responsible for them.

[Rifneno]

Speakeasy13 wrote...

How do we know? We weren't there when they made first contact. The same rule of respect "earned not given" can be applied to humans in general. It doesn't seem like we've done anything to earn the Arishock's respect either.

We have no control over what others do. We can only behave ourselves. Others' behavior is no justifcation at the end of the day for our own lack of cultural sensitivity. And certainly should not be used as an excuse.

I have cultural sensitivity for one that asks me not to, say, wear a hat in the presence of their priests. When it comes to mass murdering scum like the Arishok, my cultural sensitivity ends with the words "open fire."

I can't believe I'm saying this... I taste bile as the words try to form... but I agree with Beerfish on this subject.

[Xilizhra]

Rifneno wrote...

Speakeasy13 wrote...

How do we know? We weren't there when they made first contact. The same rule of respect "earned not given" can be applied to humans in general. It doesn't seem like we've done anything to earn the Arishock's respect either.

We have no control over what others do. We can only behave ourselves. Others' behavior is no justifcation at the end of the day for our own lack of cultural sensitivity. And certainly should not be used as an excuse.

I have cultural sensitivity for one that asks me not to, say, wear a hat in the presence of their priests. When it comes to mass murdering scum like the Arishok, my cultural sensitivity ends with the words "open fire."

I can't believe I'm saying this... I taste bile as the words try to form... but I agree with Beerfish on this subject.

Remember, this is a subject that Orsino and Meredith agreed on.