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[Rifneno]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I thought it was pretty clear where he stood on mots issues, and I figured dealing with his was fairly straightforward.

Wait, hold the phone.  What?  Straightforward?  That's the LAST thing that ****** is!  4 years he's in Kirkwall, telling the city he's waiting for a ship to arrive to take them back while sitting on his self-righteous, cowardly behind not looking for the tome.  We never get the slightest hint that the qunari are making an actual effort to look for the tome and that oxbeast went out of his way to lie to the local authorities who might actually, ya know, help him.  Why?  Because he not respect them.  Good lord.  The qun is a disease and the qunari should be purged.

[Abispa]

Dragonflight288 did bring up a good point about the Arishock playing a specific role in Qunari society. One of the things I don't like about the Qun is that it assigns a person a role and THAT IT. The person is does what s/he is supposed to do and s/he better do it well. As a soldier his role in the Qun was probably incredibly limited and Act II was the best he could do. I'm not saying that makes him worthy of your respect, and it definitely doesn't reflect well on the Qun.

According to the codex the reason most Qunari do no speak to foreigners is because the Qun demands that whatever you do, you do it well. Well most can't speak common well, so therefore they don't speak at all.

I am curious to see the Qun civilization beyond the soldiers and sarabas. Presumably the scientists, who apparently lead the world in innovations not using magic, aren't restricted in the same ways a soldier. Musicians and artists, and the females, are something I have a great deal of difficulty imagining since all we see are the soldiers.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Rifneno wrote...
 We never get the slightest hint that the qunari are making an actual effort to look for the tome and that oxbeast went out of his way to lie to the local authorities who might actually, ya know, help him.  Why?  Because he not respect them.

Yes, and no. Since the Kirkwall government is weak and the only one who made sure can do a thing about it (Meredith) doesn't seem itnerested, then revealing their purpose and intentions might alert the fanatics. Now imagine if Petrice found out about the Tome. What do you think she or someone like her would do?

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 26 mai 2011 - 12:27 .

[Xilizhra]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Rifneno wrote...
 We never get the slightest hint that the qunari are making an actual effort to look for the tome and that oxbeast went out of his way to lie to the local authorities who might actually, ya know, help him.  Why?  Because he not respect them.

Yes, and no. Since the Kirkwall government is weak and the only one who made sure can do a thing about it (Meredith) doesn't seem itnerested, then revealing their purpose and intentions might alert the fanatics. Now imagine if Petrice found out about the Tome. What do you think she or someone like her would do?

Something... worse than selling it to Tevinter?

[Fast Jimmy]

Abispa wrote...

Musicians and artists, and the females, are something I have a great deal of difficulty imagining since all we see are the soldiers.

Actually, from the way the Codexes and Wiki articles read, it sounds like the females ARE the musicians, artists, craftsmen and priestesses. Soliders are male, priestesses are always female, craftsmen and merchants can be either, but even they seem to lean more towards women assuming these roles.



I am actually curious to see what the female Kossith look like. I think I might be a little ticked off if they wind up looking like Desire Demons, with tiny, demure bodies with horns. From the Sten converstaion with Morrigan in DAO, reproduction seems to be a rather... rough... process with the Kossith. I think you are going to need big, burly women to breed with the huge, violently amarous Kossith.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Yes, and no. Since the Kirkwall government is weak and the only one who made sure can do a thing about it (Meredith) doesn't seem itnerested, then revealing their purpose and intentions might alert the fanatics. Now imagine if Petrice found out about the Tome. What do you think she or someone like her would do?

Something... worse than selling it to Tevinter?

Pissing on it.
Then selling it to Tevinter.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Rifneno wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I thought it was pretty clear where he stood on mots issues, and I figured dealing with his was fairly straightforward.

Wait, hold the phone.  What?  Straightforward?  That's the LAST thing that ****** is!  4 years he's in Kirkwall, telling the city he's waiting for a ship to arrive to take them back while sitting on his self-righteous, cowardly behind not looking for the tome.  We never get the slightest hint that the qunari are making an actual effort to look for the tome and that oxbeast went out of his way to lie to the local authorities who might actually, ya know, help him.  Why?  Because he not respect them.  Good lord.  The qun is a disease and the qunari should be purged.

We also never the hint that many of the NPCs in the game move from the very spot they are standing in their entire lives. I figured some things are resonable to infer. If he doesn't respect the local authority presumably he doesn't tell them because he doesn't think they would help. Or perhaps even complicate matters if he thinks they are all corrupt.

[Abispa]

Rifneno wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I thought it was pretty clear where he stood on mots issues, and I figured dealing with his was fairly straightforward.

Wait, hold the phone.  What?  Straightforward?  That's the LAST thing that ****** is!  4 years he's in Kirkwall, telling the city he's waiting for a ship to arrive to take them back while sitting on his self-righteous, cowardly behind not looking for the tome.  We never get the slightest hint that the qunari are making an actual effort to look for the tome and that oxbeast went out of his way to lie to the local authorities who might actually, ya know, help him.  Why?  Because he not respect them.  Good lord.  The qun is a disease and the qunari should be purged.

Samus was found by the Winters on the Wounded Coast, and he told Hawke that he and his Qunari "friend" were both looking for something. Samus was looking for a way to make his royal daddy upset and the Qunari was seeking answeres for the Arishock. I assume that the "answer" was the possible location of the Tome.

And while it does look like the Qunari are just standing around, they can apparently get into the Chantry, they did find Hawke with Ketojan, they do have bands hunting for Tal Vashoth, and they did interrupt the Tevinter purchase of the Tome, so it is possible they were searching the city those four years.

[Zeevico]

This depends upon the meaning of the word respect.

I will say that the Qunari are not beyond lying. They lied to stay in Kirkwall. Their purpose is to recover an artifact. They are not waiting for a ship to take them back to Par Vollen.

One thing the game never explains is how the Qunari stayed so long in Kirkwall. What did they live on? Their good looks?

[Fast Jimmy]

The souls of little children.




And cookies, of course.

[Foolsfolly]

Lets see. He ambushes and kills a peaceful diplomatic party when he declares war

You lost me at that point.

I was so angry at Aveline at that point. She's going to act all big and bad because three elves took the law into their own hands. Exactly what have I been doing for the last 3-4 years, Aveline?

If she did her damn job she would have arrested the rapists and the elves would have never done what they did.

But instead she charges up to the Arishok and makes demands of him, in an unstable political situation where multiple people on both sides have already died she does this.

Thanks Aveline.

So, OP. I disagree with you immediately and I will say this.

The Arishok is cool, well voiced, extremely well written, and is a villain you can understand and even empathize with. He's one of the best things about the game. I wish Meredith and Orsino were half as interesting as the Arishok.

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 26 mai 2011 - 04:48 .

[Foolsfolly]

Rifneno wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I thought it was pretty clear where he stood on mots issues, and I figured dealing with his was fairly straightforward.

Wait, hold the phone.  What?  Straightforward?  That's the LAST thing that ****** is!  4 years he's in Kirkwall, telling the city he's waiting for a ship to arrive to take them back while sitting on his self-righteous, cowardly behind not looking for the tome.  We never get the slightest hint that the qunari are making an actual effort to look for the tome and that oxbeast went out of his way to lie to the local authorities who might actually, ya know, help him.  Why?  Because he not respect them.  Good lord.  The qun is a disease and the qunari should be purged.

Actually, the Qunari find the tome before Isabela and Hawke do. They already have the area surrounded when we arrive and had apparently infiltrated the....dock/factory/warehouse/foundry/whatever-that-map-is and ambush the Tevinters.

So they're definately looking even if they don't want to broadcast it to a city that hates them and to a ton of zealots who'd likely burn the book if they knew of it.

[Rifneno]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Lets see. He ambushes and kills a peaceful diplomatic party when he declares war

You lost me at that point.

I was so angry at Aveline at that point. She's going to act all big and bad because three elves took the law into their own hands. Exactly what have I been doing for the last 3-4 years, Aveline?

If she did her damn job she would have arrested the rapists and the elves would have never done what they did.

But instead she charges up to the Arishok and makes demands of him, in an unstable political situation where multiple people on both sides have already died she does this.

Thanks Aveline.

So, OP. I disagree with you immediately and I will say this.

The Arishok is cool, well voiced, extremely well written, and is a villain you can understand and even empathize with. He's one of the best things about the game. I wish Meredith and Orsino were half as interesting as the Arishok.

She should arrest them for what, exactly? Because someone SAID they committed a crime? There is zero evidence. Even in today's criminal justice system with advanced technological investigations, mistakes in sexual assault cases are very common. Figuring out guilt in a DA setting would be a nightmare.

If the Arishok is a good example of the qunari, then they should be wiped out to a man. Total genocide. No survivors. They are a worse blight upon Thedas than what Thedas actually calls a blight.

[Rifneno]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Actually, the Qunari find the tome before Isabela and Hawke do. They already have the area surrounded when we arrive and had apparently infiltrated the....dock/factory/warehouse/foundry/whatever-that-map-is and ambush the Tevinters.

So they're definately looking even if they don't want to broadcast it to a city that hates them and to a ton of zealots who'd likely burn the book if they knew of it.

Whose fault is it that they're hated? Their own. As soon as they made contact with races that don't deserve to be utterly destroyed, they immediately attacked in an attempt to forcibly convert. They have no interest in coexisting, so neither do many humans (or elves, or dwarves). We know also that the treaty is meaningless to them. They don't consider it worth keeping because non-qunari are little more than animals to them, so in fact they do intend to continue that bloodthirsty campaign as soon as they're able. The fears of those "zealots" is well founded.

[Foolsfolly]

She should arrest them for what, exactly? Because someone SAID they committed a crime? There is zero evidence.

Yeah, stupid victims and their testimony.

[Rifneno]

Foolsfolly wrote...

She should arrest them for what, exactly? Because someone SAID they committed a crime? There is zero evidence.

Yeah, stupid victims and their testimony.

Good God.  Go google "burden of proof."  Clearly you need an education.

[Zeevico]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

The souls of little children.




And cookies, of course.

They were promised cake, but it was a lie. Hence the uprising.

[Foolsfolly]

Rifneno wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

Actually, the Qunari find the tome before Isabela and Hawke do. They already have the area surrounded when we arrive and had apparently infiltrated the....dock/factory/warehouse/foundry/whatever-that-map-is and ambush the Tevinters.

So they're definately looking even if they don't want to broadcast it to a city that hates them and to a ton of zealots who'd likely burn the book if they knew of it.

Whose fault is it that they're hated? Their own. As soon as they made contact with races that don't deserve to be utterly destroyed, they immediately attacked in an attempt to forcibly convert. They have no interest in coexisting, so neither do many humans (or elves, or dwarves). We know also that the treaty is meaningless to them. They don't consider it worth keeping because non-qunari are little more than animals to them, so in fact they do intend to continue that bloodthirsty campaign as soon as they're able. The fears of those "zealots" is well founded.

Let's look at our own world for a moment, whenever two completely different cultures meet for the first time there is enslavement, war, disease, and great misunderstandings.

So to argue by saying as soon as they made contact they attacked, well that happens when cultures meet.

The thing about their religion being militaristic and forced upon people, yes that's true. And it's true of our own history and the Chantry (who's Divine Marches force Andraste down everyone's throat or they die). The Chantry does not co-exist with anything, anyone annoys them enough and they wipe it out and force the Maker on them. Because their belief is entirely "when everyone sings the Chant the Maker will return." If they are to convert everyone then they'll have salvation. That's not a cherry and co-existing dogma, that's a "I want heaven so you have to either die or become one of us."

As for the treaty, yeah it's going to be broken. So will the treaty between Orlais and Ferelden. War is very much tied to the human experience. Treaties are signed and broken all the time. The thing that matters is that they didn't invade and they haven't invaded since. Despite the fact that the treaty isn't worth anything there has been peace.

And they don't intend to invade as soon as they're able. The Qun demands that they will take over everything. Just as the Chantry says it must spread around the world. They're two very different religions with the same goal. As Fenris says, "If the Qunari wanted to invade they would." They don't want to invade, otherwise they would have, they will invade in the future because the Qunari are the nation that must be.

It's a worthwhile distinction to make. Now that the Arishok can be dead and the relic can be lost, I imagine the Qunari will want war. And with the Chantry in ruins and the nations of Thedas at war with mages....I don't imagine the Qunari are going to find a tough opponent in their conquest.

Do I want the Qunari to invade? No. Just like I don't want the Chantry to take over everything.

But I understand why they would broadcast their goal in Kirkwall. I understand their point of view, just as I understand Petrice's point of view and the Viscount's. The Qunari did lie about why they were there but if you found yourself in Qunari lands and your best friend was a mage you'd lie to them about your friend being a mage. Because you know what they'd do to a mage. In Kirkwall, a city that really hates Qunari for no reason other than existing, they'd lie about being after a holy relic. Petrice and her zealots would totally tear the city apart looking for it and then they'd destroy it.

Then there'd be war.

The Viscount and Grand Cleric wouldn't, I know they'd help the Arishok find the book. Aveline would too! But it's the zealots that would destroy it and the Viscount and Grand Cleric are completely unable to control their own people. Even the Arishok must know this, after all the Viscount is completely unable to safeguard his own guests (like the Qunari delegate which were trying to bridge their differences).

And as for the looking down on non-Qunari as animals, humans look down on elves constantly. Dwarves look down on casteless. Dalish look down on City Elves. Everyone looks down on Mages.

The DA universe has discrimination in it. Picking on one race for their discrimination without acknowledging that it's rampant in the setting is unfair. In fact, the fantasy racism is one of the things I really like about this series. I wish they'd go into it more.

[Zeevico]

Related addendum: Act 1, the Saarebas incident. You are declared a danger due to your exposure to the Saarebas even if you hand him peacefully to the Qunari.
It follows that:
(1) You must be killed; and
(2) So must Petrice and the Templar; but
(3) The Arishok doesn't take issue with either of (1) or (2).

Why is this, I wonder?

Modifié par Zeevico, 26 mai 2011 - 05:44 .

[Foolsfolly]

Rifneno wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

She should arrest them for what, exactly? Because someone SAID they committed a crime? There is zero evidence.

Yeah, stupid victims and their testimony.

Good God.  Go google "burden of proof."  Clearly you need an education.

Nice insult, dude.

We know nothing about the crime. Is it just this one elf's word against the guard? Or is there more evidence and the guard not acting because the victim was a minority? We don't know. We know the guard weren't interested in the crime until the elves went Qunari.

Convient timing there.

But there was no investigation into it at all. That's why the victim's brothers went vigilante because the guard didn't care. And they never do in this game. Look at the serial killer in Acts 1 and 2, there's one Templar who knows there's something wrong and every guard in Kirkwall uncaring or completely disbeliving.

They do their patrols and fight ninja encounters actual investigations and running down leads? Nah, that's for Hawke to do.

[Foolsfolly]

Zeevico wrote...

Related addendum: Act 1, the Saarebas incident. You are declared a danger due to your exposure to the Saarebas even if you hand him peacefully to the Qunari.
It follows that:
(1) You must be killed; and
(2) So must Petrice and the Templar; but
(3) The Arishok doesn't take issue with either of (1) or (2).

Why is this, I wonder?

The actual answer is that the game requires all the players listed to be around in Act 2.

If you're looking for a story answer, you're not going to find one easily without inventing a few reasons yourself. Perhaps the simpliest would be that that Qunari (I forget his title) acted out his prejudices and did not behave strictly according to the Qun.

When you admit you're a mage he says something about spouting words that could spread corruption and the Saarbas had no ability to speak until after you kill those Qunari. So if their belief is that corruption spreads by words than the Saarabas could not spread corruption.

Besides, it's an unending cycle otherwise. The group that kills the Saarabas and the bas it might have infected could themselves be infected. And the group that's sent to kill them could be too. It's unending.

[Rifneno]

Zeevico wrote...

Related addendum: Act 1, the Saarebas incident. You are declared a danger due to your exposure to the Saarebas even if you hand him peacefully to the Qunari.
It follows that:
(1) You must be killed; and
(2) So must Petrice and the Templar; but
(3) The Arishok doesn't take issue with either of (1) or (2).

Why is this, I wonder?

Because the qunari are murdering scum.

It really wouldn't surprise me if it turns out they're the "big bad" we have to take down at the end of the series.  Or if they're the ones responsible for the darkspawn.  They've got an approach to magic that makes Meredith look moderate, and they don't bother telling people important information because to those savages anyone not of their murderous qun isn't worthy of knowing.

[Plaintiff]

I don't respect the Arishok. I find the philosophy of the Qun utterly repugnant for a myriad of reasons and the only nice thing that can be said about the Qunari is that they make no secret of their intention to slaughter and/or forcibly convert the rest of the world. This is a good thing because it removes any misgivings I might've otherwise had about killing them upon introduction.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Rifneno wrote...

If the Arishok is a good example of the qunari, then they should be wiped out to a man. Total genocide. No survivors.

You know, when you say things like this, there really isn't much I can see your posts as but an attempt to troll.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 26 mai 2011 - 08:09 .

[Zeevico]

Rifneno wrote...

Zeevico wrote...

Related addendum: Act 1, the Saarebas incident. You are declared a danger due to your exposure to the Saarebas even if you hand him peacefully to the Qunari.
It follows that:
(1) You must be killed; and
(2) So must Petrice and the Templar; but
(3) The Arishok doesn't take issue with either of (1) or (2).

Why is this, I wonder?

Because the qunari are murdering scum.

It really wouldn't surprise me if it turns out they're the "big bad" we have to take down at the end of the series.  Or if they're the ones responsible for the darkspawn.  They've got an approach to magic that makes Meredith look moderate, and they don't bother telling people important information because to those savages anyone not of their murderous qun isn't worthy of knowing.

I'm not saying that I think the Arishok is wrong. I just think it's inconsistent for the Saarebas' handler to attack Hawke for this reason while the Arishok does not.

Modifié par Zeevico, 26 mai 2011 - 09:55 .