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[Protodega]

Everyone may not remember this little exchange, but in act 2 if you talk to Grand Cleric Elthina you can criticize her for being useless. Her response to goes something on the lines of  "the chantry is not a domineering father, with the whip always in hand, she is a loving mother, who knows her children learn best when allowed to learn themselves". The conversation ends there, but I've always wanted to ask, if that's true, then why did the Chantry declare an Exalted March on the Dales for their refusal to submit to their religion? I'm having trouble feeling sorry for her mess of contradictions. Especially when she uses this line of reasoning to justify her own inaction.

[Rifneno]

Clearly Elthina has a morbid sense of humor. 

[TEWR]

You bas and your religions. Anaan esaam Qun.


Anyway, the whole "reason" for the Exalted March on the Dales is something I find to be a steaming pile of ****.

[brain_damage]

Rough love? You steal a cookie from the cookie jar and your mother SETS YOU ON FIRE AND EATS YOUR SIBLINGS BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD. That kind of mother.

[caradoc2000]

"The Chantry is Mother, the Chantry is Father"

[Augustei]

Protodega wrote...

Everyone may not remember this little exchange, but in act 2 if you talk to Grand Cleric Elthina you can criticize her for being useless. Her response to goes something on the lines of  "the chantry is not a domineering father, with the whip always in hand, she is a loving mother, who knows her children learn best when allowed to learn themselves". The conversation ends there, but I've always wanted to ask, if that's true, then why did the Chantry declare an Exalted March on the Dales for their refusal to submit to their religion? I'm having trouble feeling sorry for her mess of contradictions. Especially when she uses this line of reasoning to justify her own inaction.

Because that exalted march wasn't declared until the elves were besieging Val Royeaux, had sacked the town of red crossing and impaled chantrys mothers and killed thousands pretty much.
Its still in debate as to what caused this to happen however, the elves say chantry missionaries wouldn't leave them alone in trying to convert them but the storyteller in Origins does mention that he is certain the elves played some part in their own downfall

[Dave of Canada]

Because you're telling the Dalish side of the story, the Chantry has a different side of it. It's impossible to tell which side is correct since both of them are filled with heavy propaganda that's probably aged horribly.

[Augustei]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Because you're telling the Dalish side of the story, the Chantry has a different side of it. It's impossible to tell which side is correct since both of them are filled with heavy propaganda that's probably aged horribly.

Yeah but the elves are high nosed annoying snobs who would proably never admit they were wrong.. Im taking the chantrys side on this one lol

[Fast Jimmy]

Wow... you just said someone other than the Chantry was high nosed and annoying snobs!

I'm a little confused by your tactics... so I'm going to keep acting tough until I figure them out!

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I'm pretty sure she was just talking about the situation at hand. Not the history of the Chantry in general.

[Plaintiff]

That's the great thing about religion. You can change your story to suit the situation and almost nobody will notice.

[dragonflight288]

Merrill puts it very well, it's full of holes.

So yes, the Chantry is a gentle mother, with a large army of templars addicted the lyrium provided by the chantry. And a domineering philosophy. "When the Chant reaches all four corners of the world, we will earn the maker's forgiveness."

Umm....right. And if they continue actions that he abandoned them for, say preaching prejudice and dominance, and attacking the Dalish. That makes perfect sense.

As for the Dalish vs Chantry war, I hold both sides responsible for the war as neither side wants to admit their guilt so they try and lay blame on the other, and both are high strung, self-righteous snobs.

[BigEvil]

caradoc2000 wrote...

"The Chantry is Mother, the Chantry is Father"

OMG, it's all starting to make sense. The Omega tattoo on Jack's back. Cerberus is the remnant of the Chantry, and they're in league with the Psi-Corps. Someone has to warn Sheridan!

[Fast Jimmy]

BigEvil wrote...

OMG, it's all starting to make sense. The Omega tattoo on Jack's back. Cerberus is the remnant of the Chantry, and they're in league with the Psi-Corps. Someone has to warn Sheridan!

I know, that's what I thought at first too.

But if you think back, to
the time you took me to the lake, and taught me how to go fishin'...
you'll realize that has nothing to do with this!

The answer, is N'Sync!

[LobselVith8]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Protodega wrote...

Everyone may not remember this little exchange, but in act 2 if you talk to Grand Cleric Elthina you can criticize her for being useless. Her response to goes something on the lines of  "the chantry is not a domineering father, with the whip always in hand, she is a loving mother, who knows her children learn best when allowed to learn themselves". The conversation ends there, but I've always wanted to ask, if that's true, then why did the Chantry declare an Exalted March on the Dales for their refusal to submit to their religion? I'm having trouble feeling sorry for her mess of contradictions. Especially when she uses this line of reasoning to justify her own inaction.

Because that exalted march wasn't declared until the elves were besieging Val Royeaux, had sacked the town of red crossing and impaled chantrys mothers and killed thousands pretty much.
Its still in debate as to what caused this to happen however, the elves say chantry missionaries wouldn't leave them alone in trying to convert them but the storyteller in Origins does mention that he is certain the elves played some part in their own downfall

The elves say the templars were sent into their nation when they kicked out the missionaries. Armed and armored soldiers were sent into sovereign territory sounds like a reason for a war. Of course the Exalted March against the Dales is contested, but Orlais has a history of conquering other nations since it's inception under then King Drakon I, using the Third Blight to take over Nevarra, taking over Ferelden with full support of the Chantry for over a century and plotting to take over the nation after the Fifth Blight now. Of the two, Orlais has a long history of taking over other nations.

[Silent X]

I think the view Elthina espouses there is her sincere belief. She has one interpretation of what the Chantry is/should be about; some other Andrastians have a much more aggressive view. The same holds true in the real world. Members of the same religion may hold very different views; within one faith, some will believe that their religion requires them to be kind and forgiving, while others will believe it requires them to kill everyone who disagrees with them. There's a whole range in between, too, of course.

I don't find it impossible that Elthina could believe the Chantry is a loving mother while others believe it is the stern father with whip in hand. I think Elthina strove to stay out of the mage-templar conflict because she sincerely believed her intervention would make things worse rather than better. Was she right? Could she have resolved things? We'll never know for sure. While she was ultimately ineffectual, I do think she was trying to do what she thought would yield the least violent outcome.

[dragonflight288]

Uh huh. You may have a point. It is kind of hard to argue with results, and the results weren't pretty. But I do get your point about her intentions.

[Plaintiff]

Last I checked, a "loving mother" would step in when one of her "children" starts beating the others with a big stick.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Plaintiff wrote...

Last I checked, a "loving mother" would step in when one of her "children" starts beating the others with a big stick.

It's easier to wait for the absentee father to do that, even though she believes he's not supposed to be back until she cleans all four corners of the house.

[Plaintiff]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Last I checked, a "loving mother" would step in when one of her "children" starts beating the others with a big stick.

It's easier to wait for the absentee father to do that, even though she believes he's not supposed to be back until she cleans all four corners of the house.

And lo, the Maker spake thusly unto Andraste: "****, you best get back in the kitchen and fix me a damn sammich".

[GavrielKay]

Plaintiff wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Last I checked, a "loving mother" would step in when one of her "children" starts beating the others with a big stick.

It's easier to wait for the absentee father to do that, even though she believes he's not supposed to be back until she cleans all four corners of the house.

And lo, the Maker spake thusly unto Andraste: "****, you best get back in the kitchen and fix me a damn sammich".

That whole exchange made me laugh 

I generally respect people who believe that religion should be the carrot rather than the stick, but Elthina's job wasn't to offer carrots to everyone and hope they played nice.  If she didn't have the personality to fulfill her duty she should have taken a nice position as a mountain hermit who handed out wisdom to pilgrims.

There are extremists and moderates in just about every organization, but if someone accepts a position of responsibility within that organization, they ought to be prepared to do what is necessary.

[Sowtaaw]

dont be surprise if the chantry try to convert the qunari, i think will end badly for the chantry.

[Phoenix_Loftian]

The results are the only truth. Elthina's non-intervention and blissful ignorance toward the lawless Templars and atrocities committed toward the Qunari and Mages ended-up creating those fiasco's. She honestly had that death coming and I was absolutely revolted that the DLC character ended-up being some plant of the Chantry that only ever speaks empty platitudes and is essentially a hypocritical spoiled brat.

[dragonflight288]

The results are the only truth. Elthina's non-intervention and blissful ignorance toward the lawless Templars and atrocities committed toward the Qunari and Mages ended-up creating those fiasco's. She honestly had that death coming and I was absolutely revolted that the DLC character ended-up being some plant of the Chantry that only ever speaks empty platitudes and is essentially a hypocritical spoiled brat.

Ever played the game Jade Empire? They cover the difference of details in a situation where results are the same if you ask Smiling Mountain in the game about the Path of Discord.

The way he puts it is, "An evil man may not help a person in trouble because he does not care. A man on the low path may not help him, because he feels the man should prove he's strong enough to survive on his own."

Protaganist: What's the difference? The man dies each time.

Smiling Mountain: The difference is in the details. That same man may help if the odds are unreasonable, or may do so to incur favor. There is thought in his actions.

Granted, I won't deny that results are incredibly hard to argue with. We all saw Elthina's inaction, and the horrific results of it. And I'm pretty sure she didn't put too much thought into the whole situation. But one small detail I'm sure we can all agree on is that Elthina as a person had no malicious intents.

And yes, I don't like Sebastian either.

[Protodega]

Silent X wrote...

I think the view Elthina espouses there is her sincere belief. She has one interpretation of what the Chantry is/should be about; some other Andrastians have a much more aggressive view. The same holds true in the real world. Members of the same religion may hold very different views; within one faith, some will believe that their religion requires them to be kind and forgiving, while others will believe it requires them to kill everyone who disagrees with them. There's a whole range in between, too, of course.

I don't find it impossible that Elthina could believe the Chantry is a loving mother while others believe it is the stern father with whip in hand. I think Elthina strove to stay out of the mage-templar conflict because she sincerely believed her intervention would make things worse rather than better. Was she right? Could she have resolved things? We'll never know for sure. While she was ultimately ineffectual, I do think she was trying to do what she thought would yield the least violent outcome.

The problem with this is the wording. She doesn't say "I think the chantry should be a loving mother" she says "it IS a loving mother". She may wish reform, and that would be noble, but making false statements about the positions of her own organization shows she's either misinformed or delusional.