144 réponses à ce sujet

[KenKenpachi]

Its not the numbers that matter in any case. The Bartarians were looking for any reasson to go to war. Humanity or rather the systems Alliance is more of a.....watch dog. Say more like Modern European Armies, Versus Russia or the US.

Its like Batartians use terror attacks and the like that they can go "Oh it was a bunch of crazies on the run." As it knows the Systems Alliance more concerned with economic issues is not willing to fight over it. I'll wager even if the 4.4 million were killed short of harsh letters the system Alliance would not do anything. On the other hand the Bartarians are using said attacks to goad the alliance to action, so it can go to war, for a just reason. Its flimsy on paper but it would hold up in that the Bartarians and Systems Alliance can have a 1-on-1 even if humanity is on the council.

Its like America or the UK (former) in Vietnam, and the later in the Falklands. Other Nato Members sat those conflicts out and offer no, or limited support. Saying these were actions of one member. So with Shepards actions the Batarians an have an even War or sue for economic (unfair and one-sided) compensations.

[Moiaussi]

KenKenpachi wrote...

Its not the numbers that matter in any case. The Bartarians were looking for any reasson to go to war. Humanity or rather the systems Alliance is more of a.....watch dog. Say more like Modern European Armies, Versus Russia or the US.

Its like Batartians use terror attacks and the like that they can go "Oh it was a bunch of crazies on the run." As it knows the Systems Alliance more concerned with economic issues is not willing to fight over it. I'll wager even if the 4.4 million were killed short of harsh letters the system Alliance would not do anything. On the other hand the Bartarians are using said attacks to goad the alliance to action, so it can go to war, for a just reason. Its flimsy on paper but it would hold up in that the Bartarians and Systems Alliance can have a 1-on-1 even if humanity is on the council.

Its like America or the UK (former) in Vietnam, and the later in the Falklands. Other Nato Members sat those conflicts out and offer no, or limited support. Saying these were actions of one member. So with Shepards actions the Batarians an have an even War or sue for economic (unfair and one-sided) compensations.

Your premise is blatantly untrue. The Batarians had an excuse to go to war, namely Alliance colonization of the Traverse. They backed down without even so much as a show of force.

In fact given how quickly the Batarians backed down and fell back on privateers and guerilla war, it is reasonable to conclude that the Batarian governement is trying to avoid open warfare at all costs.

Empires only need excuses to go to war when there are neutral parties. Given the Alliance is not even just an associate member but a full member of the Council, there aren't really any neutral parties to dance around.

The Batarians are much more likely to want trade concessions and/or reparation payments, as well as rolling heads of course.

[100k]

Lets not forget that they tried to kill several thousand civilians in ME2 with the dual missile strike.

[Someone With Mass]

100k wrote...

Lets not forget that they tried to kill several thousand civilians in ME2 with the dual missile strike.

I think that happened in the Terminus system, though. The Alliance doesn't give a crap about what happens there.

[KenKenpachi]

Moiaussi wrote...

Your premise is blatantly untrue. The Batarians had an excuse to go to war, namely Alliance colonization of the Traverse. They backed down without even so much as a show of force.

In fact given how quickly the Batarians backed down and fell back on privateers and guerilla war, it is reasonable to conclude that the Batarian governement is trying to avoid open warfare at all costs.

Empires only need excuses to go to war when there are neutral parties. Given the Alliance is not even just an associate member but a full member of the Council, there aren't really any neutral parties to dance around.

The Batarians are much more likely to want trade concessions and/or reparation payments, as well as rolling heads of course.

Thats why I pointed it out that way. Lets say you have Nation A, and Nation B.

Nation A is up and coming, peaceful fits in well with others. Nation B is a jerk, has been on everyone's nerves for a long time. 

Now lets say A gets whown more Favor than B. B is a dick and will walk off at first. But then belatedly facepalm at what it has done. So what would happen if it just went out and attacked Nation A? Everyone down from Z will be all on them like white on rice, on a paper plate in a snow storm.  If on the other hand they can use filmsy but but it was terroist and goad nation A into attacking first, then A is the aggressor. And thus may have limited outside support. 

Thats why I listed the above Wars, its much like the  Current events in Iraq and Libya. US (in later NATO) attacks first and while others are "Supportive" real firepower and troops is pretty thin. On Afghanistan, its a full blown multi national force.

So if the Bartarians openly just try and kick in the alliance's teeth it will not be War with the Allaince. But with the Alliance, the Salarians, the Turians, and the Asari. Batarians bite the dust, or hold on to JUST what they have. On the other hand if the Alliance who is an upstart, starts crap, the other Big three can just look the other way or offer Moral Support. Moral Support is useless in terms of bullets.

Look at the history for the System Alliance any purely "Human" problem, no help. They give us the Traverse bad crap happens....We are sorry but hey you know the risks.  Meanwhile when the Cithidal is directly threatend.  Oh we all are friends lets kick some ass. If the Bartarians get the allaince to attack or have a cause to go to war, a legitimate cause that well sell well in public opinion no one will back the Alliance unless its in danger of falling.  I mean just as the terroist are Batarian on the other hand does not give cause to attack Batarian space, or at least one that would get backing.

Modifié par KenKenpachi, 25 mai 2011 - 10:54 .

[Yakko77]

Alpha-Centuri wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Shepard DIDN'T WANT to blowup the relay, he had no choice, Balak WANTED to destroy Terra Nova.

The batarians don't know that. Probably wouldn't care, either.

This.

"Intentions don't matter. It's the end result we are all judged by. Evil
in the name of good is still evil. And when you dance with the devil
you seldom get to pick the tune."

- Sherrilyn Kenyon

The path to hell is paved with good intentions.

Not saying Shep deserves to go to hell for what s/he did but it may lead to dire consequences despite the intent.  Of course we know things would've been worse without destroying the Relay but as others have pointed out, the batarians  are very impuslive and reactionary and don't likely care.

Modifié par Yakko77, 25 mai 2011 - 11:11 .

[KotorEffect3]

If the batarians still want to go to war once the reapers have shown up then they deserve to be wiped out.

[Dave666]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

PrinceLionheart wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

DaBigDragon wrote...

BlackwindTheCommander wrote...

 So I've been thinking, are the events of Arrival really something we have to worry about going to war with the Batarians over? 

Granted, 300,000+ civillian casuallities is horrific, but Batarian extremists tried to kill 4.4 million human colonists by doing the same exact thing. Did the humans declare war on the Batarian government? Nope.

I think the Batarians can suck it up, especially since there are bigger baddies to worry about come ME3.

Well, yes they did try and kill everything on Terra Nova, but the key difference is they did not succeed whereas Shepard actually did end up killing a mass amount of civilians.

Difference is Shepard did it to save more lives (the rest of the galaxy) where as Balak tried to kill 4.4 million humans because he hates humans and wanted to make a political statement.  Yes intent does matter.

Having good intentions when you commit a war crime doesn't mean you didn't commit a war crime. So no, just saying "Deal with it" shouldn't be the solution to this.

Also the key difference between Balak and Shepard in this scenario is that Balak was a rogue extremist under no one's authority. He's either dead or on the Alliance's most wanted list. Shepard was on an official mission for the Alliance when he nuked an entire solar system.

Actualy Shepard was not on an official mission for the alliance when he blew up the relay, he was out there doing a personal favor for Hackett.  Hackett makes it very clear when contacts Shepard that this is a favor and not an alliance operation.  Shepard isn't even with the alliance at this point.  Second of all Hackett didn't tell Shepard to blow up the relay he told Shepard to rescue Dr Kenson.  Those Batarians would have ended up being reaper chow anyway and then the reapers would have killed trillions more if Shepard hadn't blown up the relay.  The real crime would have been if Shepard didn't blow up the relay.  Why is this even up for debate? 

Indeed.  Theres an old quote about how 'All it takes for evil to triumph is for good to do nothing'.

Killing 300,000 people is horrendous, no question, but not blowing up that Relay would have been a trillion times worse.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Oddly enough, I've always felt that the Batarians would be appropriate as a race that DOES believe in the Reapers... if only because they're too paranoid not to.

"Repent!  The end is nigh!"

Could have been foreshadowing that at least some Batarians do know, or it could have just been the crazy guy stood on the street corner shouting 'The end is nigh'.

[eye basher]

the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

[KotorEffect3]

eye basher wrote...

the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

In case you are forgetting there was a reaper fleet on it's way to that relay,  in my mind Shepard only deserves condemnation if he had not destroyed the relay, not to mention there is a good chance that many if not most of those 300 k batarians would have been turned into husks or indocrtinated by the reapers.  There are some fates worse than death.

[AlexMBrennan]

Shepard has some proof that the general Reaper threat is real but here he has a few visions (from frequently using prothean artefacts not designed for humans?) and decides to blow up a system (cf rapture nutcases). Arguing that this saved lives is after the fact and hence invalid. Try again.
Conveniently the game doesn't give the player any choice here.

[KotorEffect3]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Shepard has some proof that the general Reaper threat is real but here he has a few visions (from frequently using prothean artefacts not designed for humans?) and decides to blow up a system (cf rapture nutcases). Arguing that this saved lives is after the fact and hence invalid. Try again.
Conveniently the game doesn't give the player any choice here.

You are one arrogant little bastard aren't you?  Sorry but the fact that Shepard saved lives is very valid  just because you don't like it doesn't mean it isn't valid and you can dismiss it.  And this DLC was a bridging DLC meaning ME 3 is going to act like it happened whether you purchased it or not so bioware had to make it so the story in the DLC was consistant to make the events between ME 2 and ME 3 consistant for everyone because believe it or not some people don't have access to DLC.

[lolwut666]

Ugh...

300.000 people died.

That's plenty of reason to go to war no matter who you are.

The fact that humanity didn't go to war because of what the batarians did before that only means they didn't want to. That doesn't mean they weren't justified in doing so, just like the batarians are now.

[KotorEffect3]

In a few months squabbles between humanity and batarians will be the least of each species worries

[lolwut666]

Nobody believes the Reapers, and some have never even heard of them.

So, in the meantime, a war with the batarians is a big deal.

[Moiaussi]

lolwut666 wrote...

Nobody believes the Reapers, and some have never even heard of them.

So, in the meantime, a war with the batarians is a big deal.

Of course the Reapers show up in the system anyway, so any responding Batarian fleets will either be eliminated or will be reporting an invasion force. I suppose any surviving Batarians could mistake the Reapers for Alliance vessels, but why would more arrive then head immediately towards Earth rather than press the attack into Batarian space?

If the relay hadn't been blown up it is a safe bet that the Reapers wouldn't have simply waved hi to the Batarians in passing.

[lolwut666]

@Moiaussi

"If" doesn't matter, though. It didn't happen, and nobody knows it will happen, so the attention is naturally on the batarians.

[Moiaussi]

lolwut666 wrote...

@Moiaussi

"If" doesn't matter, though. It didn't happen, and nobody knows it will happen, so the attention is naturally on the batarians.

My understanding is that the Reapers showed up anyway and this was only delaying their trip from the Bahak system to Earth. Unless they literally all arrived at once despite the relay's destruction, the Batarians likely are discovering they have problems of their own. From Dev comments it sounds like the Reapers will be hitting other empires too, and presumably that would include the Batarians.

It is possible that they were already coopted I suppose....

[Big I]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

If the batarians still want to go to war once the reapers have shown up then they deserve to be wiped out.

That same logic could be used to justify exterminating the quarians, since they're trying to retake Ranoch during a Reaper invasion.


People should also remember that regardless of whether Shepard was acting in an official Alliance capacity or not the Project itself was undeniably an Alliance plot to blow up the Bahak system.

[AlexMBrennan]

You are one arrogant little bastard aren't you?

I can't comment on that.

Sorry but the fact that Shepard saved lives is very valid just because you don't like it doesn't mean it isn't valid and you can dismiss it.

At the time when Shepard made the decision to kill 300k people neither he nor anyone else had any evidence for an imminent Reaper invasion other than visions from a *Reaper* artefact. The fact that the *player* knows that the Reapers will arrive a few hours after that decision is irrelevant when judging Shepard's decision. The fact that it saved lives does *not* mean that it was the right decision.

He only had *visions* from a Reaper artefact and decided to nuke a relay and 300k baterians. That isn't going to look good to anybody else other than *him* (since he had these visions and believes them) and the *player* (omniscient viewpoint again).

And this DLC was a bridging DLC meaning ME 3 is going to act like it happened whether you purchased it or not so bioware had to make it so the story in the DLC was consistant to make the events between ME 2 and ME 3 consistant for everyone because believe it or not some people don't have access to DLC.

That's true but also immaterial - whether Shepard's action is reasonable depends on what he and other know at the time and not on BW's motives for forcing Shepard to take that action.

[SalsaDMA]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Trying to detonate a WMD is trying to detonate a WMD. It is not, however, detonating a WMD, which has far higher consequences in and of itself.

That's naive.

If you take such a stance in determining your reaction, then you are basicly inviting people to go ahead and attempt to use WMDs against you untill they suceed.

Someone pulls a gun to your face and pulls the trigger.

a) he kills you, dead. Tough luck for you. As far as you are concerned at this point, any consequences done to guy pulling the gun is meaningless for you.

his gun jams, you survive. Your luck, but doesn't change that if the guy had had things go as he wanted to, you'd be dead. Any consequences done to the guy means you need to ensure he, or others, doesn't attempt the same thing again, unless you fancy being dead, ofc. (hey, some people are like that).

[CroGamer002]

Why do many people still talk like everyone knows about the Reapers?

[lolwut666]

Mesina2 wrote...

Why do many people still talk like everyone knows about the Reapers?

It seems like meta-gaming has become second nature for some people.