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#126
Moiaussi

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Nathan Redgrave wrote...

O, the irony.

Anyway, there's nothing to suggest that Balak's attack on Terra Nova was endorsed by the Batarian Hegemony--at best, the "rebellion" he hints at in BDtS's Renegade ending could be a batarian equivalent to the Cerberus group. This is essentially why Shepard is going to trial--the Alliance wants to disconnect itself from whatever happened in the Bahak System. If the Alliance couldn't take Balak as an excuse to go to war, the Hegemony can't take Shepard as an excuse to go to war.

I get the feeling that after the Reaper invasion becomes a little more "real" to the denizens of the galaxy, even the Hegemony will be forced to put the Bahak System tragedy into its proper perspective, however.


This I agree with you on. I suspect that if we end up getting to know the Batarians better, we will find that their opinions aren't any more uniform than the Geth, Quarians, Krogans, Turians, or any other race we have seen in-game prejudice towards.

#127
Nathan Redgrave

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Moiaussi wrote...

This I agree with you on. I suspect that if we end up getting to know the Batarians better, we will find that their opinions aren't any more uniform than the Geth, Quarians, Krogans, Turians, or any other race we have seen in-game prejudice towards.


We saw some hints of that in ME2. I suspect the batarian/human conflict is going to be one of the big ones that Shepard will have to resolve one way or another by the end of ME3. I'm quite interested to see what'll come of it.

#128
packardbell

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Of course the batarians will want to spin this as much as they can.

#129
Dean_the_Young

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Nathan Redgrave wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Any Shepard's already done enough on behalf and for Cerberus so as to be hanged by any jury with an inclination to it.


What, saved the galaxy? Most of what "any" Shepard would do are entirely neutral actions that don't relate to Cerberus's goals as an organization in the first place. You know, that lovely sidequest-centric plot structure that ME2 went with. There are a few points where you can act either in support of or against Cerberus, such as the Rachni intel, Overlord, and the Collector Base, but for the most part it's just Shepard doing his usual thing and happening to have the Cerberus logo on his ship at the time.

No, working in general for Cerberus.

Giving them highly advanced technology from a variety of sources, including proprietary Council military ship-technology. Conducting lots of theft of credits which go into their bank accounts. Plenty of actions that directly or indirectly benefit them no matter what choice you do. Simply because these things are 'neutral' in terms of Paragon/Renegade doesn't mean they don't benefit Cerberus, or that they can't be used against Shepard.

If Shepard acts in support of Cerberus during this time, there isn't really any reason that the Alliance would know he had, so you're operating from the vague "You were with Cerberus!" accusation.

The Alliance and the Council have their own spy networks, even without whatever tidbits Cerberus cares to share. All three groups are reasons the Alliance can know or learn about what Shepard was doing: the first two for investigating on their own, the third for sharing for whatever reasons.

If Shepard acts in opposition to Cerberus, there are at least two occasions (Rachni intel, Overlord) where the Alliance would be aware of this fact, and it'd be kind of hard to make the vague "You were with Cerberus!" accusation stick when you were quietly slipping the Alliance vital intel and/or rescuing an unfortunate victim of Cerberus cruelty while you were at it. The big thing is Arrival: there's no two ways about that. The Cerberus connection is a bit more variable. 

That's more than a little seeing it with rose-tinged glasses. Differing with Cerberus on some things doesn't mean you didn't work together: it just means you disagreed on something. Nothing more, nothing less. Never mind that in both examples you site, it was Cerberus asking you to go in and deal with the problems as you saw fit.

The mark of close working together isn't uniform agreement, but continuing to work with despite disagreements on individual things. No one is obliged to believe you if you claim that, because you disagreed with someone on some specific things, all the other points you helped eachother are invalidated.

#130
Nathan Redgrave

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Dean_the_Young wrote...
No, working in general for Cerberus. 

Giving them highly advanced technology from a variety of sources, including proprietary Council military ship-technology. Conducting lots of theft of credits which go into their bank accounts.


Actually the theft of credits is entirely on Shepard, and goes directly into his account. But I get what you're saying. This said, what makes you think the Alliance is even aware of the gamey little loot system's real-world implications? I think you're thinking a little too deeply about it.

The Alliance and the Council have their own spy networks, even without whatever tidbits Cerberus cares to share. All three groups are reasons the Alliance can know or learn about what Shepard was doing: the first two for investigating on their own, the third for sharing for whatever reasons.


They aren't the Shadow Broker, dude, they aren't going to magically have access to every security cam in the galaxy. They'll know the general gist of what Shepard's been up to, but most of it is pretty much irrelevant to the Cerberus point. One way or another, for example, Shepard cured a massively dangerous alien-killing plague on Omega. Does that sound like Cerberus to you? And I'll be damned if the Alliance or Council have any idea what went down in a good half of the game's missions; their spy networks in the Terminus Systems can't possibly be that good.

That's more than a little seeing it with rose-tinged glasses. Differing with Cerberus on some things doesn't mean you didn't work together: it just means you disagreed on something. Nothing more, nothing less.


Does the term "espionage" mean anything to you?

Never mind that in both examples you site, it was Cerberus asking you to go in and deal with the problems as you saw fit.


In the first case, Cerberus Command decided to trust in your "discretion." Kind of stupid of them, really. Shepard, Paragon or Renegade, is almost bound to bite them in the ass; giving the intel back to Cerberus is actually the neutral choice. Renegade Shep keeps the intel for himself (I can definitely see him trying to use it as leverage at some point in the future).

The mark of close working together isn't uniform agreement, but continuing to work with despite disagreements on individual things. No one is obliged to believe you if you claim that, because you disagreed with someone on some specific things, all the other points you helped eachother are invalidated.


Giving vital intel to the Alliance, knowing it would hurt Cerberus's public image if it were circulated, is not a "disagreement." It's an active backhand to the daddybags. Anderson's message even calls it a "huge win for the Alliance."

Overlord is hazier territory, but no matter what the circumstances, I doubt either the Alliance or the Council would be particular angry about Shepard preventing a galactic Skynet from sweeping the extranet.

There is a world of difference between grudgingly working with the enemy of your enemy and compliantly working with the enemy of your former allies. Any halfway intelligent person can make that distinction. Moreover, I think it's important to point out that if Shepard's Spectre status is re-instated, he technically does have the license to conduct what essentially amounts to an espionage operation of his own volition, without the go-ahead of the Alliance and maybe even without the direct approval of the Council (Spectres have been said to act on their own).

This is why I'm saying it's more variable than the surefire backlash Arrival will bring. Shepard's actions while working with Cerberus can swing both ways, turning more in his favor or into a detriment to his cause. 

#131
Dean_the_Young

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Nathan Redgrave wrote...

Actually the theft of credits is entirely on Shepard, and goes directly into his account. But I get what you're saying. This said, what makes you think the Alliance is even aware of the gamey little loot system's real-world implications? I think you're thinking a little too deeply about it.

All it would take is a few bank traces, and security cameras/testimony, to be able to find it. Most crime is hidden in the world because the criminals themselves are hidden, but once an individual is identified further crimes are often far easier to identify, and Shepard certainly is someone of interest. No benefits of anonyminity.

We actually have no real basis to claim that the credits Shepard steals go only to his/her account: Cerberus could simply have set up a system where they skim a little (or a lot) off the top in-transition. So what Shepard thinks is an account worth 6000 credits could as well be worth 8000, but Cerberus just skims 25% without ever informing Shepard.

As you realized, though, it was a rhetorical point, and shouldn't be looked at too hard.

They aren't the Shadow Broker, dude, they aren't going to magically have access to every security cam in the galaxy. They'll know the general gist of what Shepard's been up to, but most of it is pretty much irrelevant to the Cerberus point. One way or another, for example, Shepard cured a massively dangerous alien-killing plague on Omega. Does that sound like Cerberus to you? And I'll be damned if the Alliance or Council have any idea what went down in a good half of the game's missions; their spy networks in the Terminus Systems can't possibly be that good.

They don't need to be the Shadow Broker to have intelligence networks. The Shadow Broker isn't the only person able to hack, to steal, and to investigate.

They'll only know 'the general' if they only ask general questions. But these are inter-galactic empires with the resources and expertise of entire mega-states behind them: where they put their focus to, they can do things not even the Broker can dig out.

Cerberus was willing enough to save the Council for its own ends: helping end a plague in the Terminus that is implicating humans is no stretch of the imagination given their past history of known (and unknown) involvements.



Does the term "espionage" mean anything to you?

Far more to me than you, for as far as your taking it. Shepard wasn't playing Cerberus: nearly every Cerberus secret Shepard found was at Cerberus's invitation until EDI was unlocked, and even she isn't an unbiased source. Teltin, Overlord, even the Minuteman station: all these locations and exposures therin were made known to Shepard by Cerberus's allowance. Shepard doesn't come across as an unwilling and reluctant associate: Shepard is very much someone Cerberus invites on the basis that despite various decisions Shepard is still valuable to Cerberus (and vice versa). 

In the first case, Cerberus Command decided to trust in your "discretion." Kind of stupid of them, really. Shepard, Paragon or Renegade, is almost bound to bite them in the ass; giving the intel back to Cerberus is actually the neutral choice. Renegade Shep keeps the intel for himself (I can definitely see him trying to use it as leverage at some point in the future).

And you still were asked to do it by them, and you still did it. No one is obliged to see it your way, as your personal rebellion/subtle undermining.

Giving vital intel to the Alliance, knowing it would hurt Cerberus's public image if it were circulated, is not a "disagreement." It's an active backhand to the daddybags. Anderson's message even calls it a "huge win for the Alliance."

Shepard never gives vital to the Alliance, nor is Cerberus's public image exactly in danger of overflowing in effect beforehand. Shepard gave a propoganda victory, and a debatable one at that.

You want espionage and conspiracies as interpretted by the outsider not inclined to believe you? Here's one: outing Cerberus with the data is precisely what a Cerberus plant would do to try and throw off the scent.

Cerberus's reputation? Largely irrelevant: not only was Cerberus, in fact, involved with Rachni experiments, but the people who would work with Cerberus do so despite, not because of, its overall reputation. Small scale compared to the Kohaku stuff.

On the other hand, the person who would reveal that... why, no one would question them. Why would such a person lie about their reasons for hurting Cerberus, even as they continue to funnel technology, weapons, and do favors for such a group?


You see it as vindication of your innocence and antagonism. The cynical see it as the expected actions of a Cerberus ally trying to hide himself.

There is a world of difference between grudgingly working with the enemy of your enemy and compliantly working with the enemy of your former allies. Any halfway intelligent person can make that distinction. Moreover, I think it's important to point out that if Shepard's Spectre status is re-instated, he technically does have the license to conduct what essentially amounts to an espionage operation of his own volition, without the go-ahead of the Alliance and maybe even without the direct approval of the Council (Spectres have been said to act on their own).

Of course there's a world of difference... for you. But no one, and I do mean no one, is obliged to see things your way. Anyone inclined to read malice will read malice no matter the actions. Anyone inclined to see conspiracies will see conspiracies. This isn't about intelligence, but projection: anyone, no matter how smart or dumb, can read motivations other than your own onto your actions.

Spectre status only applies in Council space, and does not cover treason against the Council species (singular and plural). Moreover, Spectres can always be hung out to dry for political considerations: even Saren knew that the Alliance would have his head if he simply killed Anderson during the training mission.

#132
Moiaussi

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Nathan Redgrave wrote...

Giving vital intel to the Alliance, knowing it would hurt Cerberus's public image if it were circulated, is not a "disagreement." It's an active backhand to the daddybags. Anderson's message even calls it a "huge win for the Alliance."


A competent prosecutor would argue that could have been a deliberate leak. Keep in mind that Cerberus gains among many of its supporters for doing extreme things that others won't. The leak could have been establishing 'street cred.' And if it is really damning evidence, there is the point that Shepard stayed on with them despite knowing they are involved in such operations.


Overlord is hazier territory, but no matter what the circumstances, I doubt either the Alliance or the Council would be particular angry about Shepard preventing a galactic Skynet from sweeping the extranet.


The point is that it doesn't work in Shepard's defence, since he was there at Cerberus' request and keeping the operation from overrunning all of civilization includes saving Cerberus and for that matter saving Shepard. Shepard cannot prove altruism.

Furthermore, it is evidence that Cerberus is dangerous and that Shepard should have been fighting against them instead of working for them.

There is a world of difference between grudgingly working with the enemy of your enemy and compliantly working with the enemy of your former allies. Any halfway intelligent person can make that distinction. Moreover, I think it's important to point out that if Shepard's Spectre status is re-instated, he technically does have the license to conduct what essentially amounts to an espionage operation of his own volition, without the go-ahead of the Alliance and maybe even without the direct approval of the Council (Spectres have been said to act on their own).

This is why I'm saying it's more variable than the surefire backlash Arrival will bring. Shepard's actions while working with Cerberus can swing both ways, turning more in his favor or into a detriment to his cause. 


Enemy of your enemy is problematic in that Cerberus has been labeled an enemy, and there is no obvious enemy that they are fighting against.

The Collectors don't really count, since Cerberus was conceiling the evidence every chance they had. Furthermore, they (appearantly) only had the one relatively weak ship, something that an Alliance task force could have easily handled. I mean, it was no match for a single frigate. That isn't really much of a threat (keeping in mind that the Reapers' existance isn't believed let alone their imminent arrival).

Spectre status is irrelevant, since it only protects at the Council's discretion.

Modifié par Moiaussi, 28 mai 2011 - 01:55 .


#133
DPSSOC

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Nathan Redgrave wrote...
Anyway, there's nothing to suggest that Balak's attack on Terra Nova was endorsed by the Batarian Hegemony


Except for the fact the Batarian Hegemony has been funding pirates/slavers/terrorists to attack humanity since we met them.

Nathan Redgrave wrote...
If the Alliance couldn't take Balak as an excuse to go to war, the Hegemony can't take Shepard as an excuse to go to war.


How do you figure?  There are two things that kept the Alliance from going to war over Terra Nova.  First the lack of success; to use a real world example 9/11 was not the first attack made by Islamic terrorists on the World Trade Centre, it was the effective one.  An attack in 1996 (if memory serves) was launched but failed and the result was decidedly different to that of 9/11 which succeeded.  Now I'm sure there was some reaction to it, but a failed terrorist attack isn't enough to propel a nation, let alone a species, into war.

Second the Alliance didn't (still doesn't) want a war with the Batarians.  The Batarians are a nuisance and the Alliance has (or at least had) a much larger threat looming over their heads.  The Alliance didn't want to start a war with the Batarians because they didn't want to weaken themselves against the Turians.  30 years is not that long and we know that some Turians are still sore about the war so when deciding whether or not to pick a fight over Terra Nova they had to consider the risk of the Turians taking advantage of a weakened and distracted Alliance.

It isn't so much that they couldn't it's that they chose not to, nothing demands the Batarians do the same.

#134
Dean_the_Young

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DPSSOC wrote...

Nathan Redgrave wrote...
Anyway, there's nothing to suggest that Balak's attack on Terra Nova was endorsed by the Batarian Hegemony


Except for the fact the Batarian Hegemony has been funding pirates/slavers/terrorists to attack humanity since we met them.

Strictly speaking, yes and no.

While the Batarians have been making an environment in which terrorism/piracy/slaving can exist easily, that doesn't necessarily mean they back any individual act in particular. It's one of the controlled risk aspects of creating such turbulence: the Hegemony could have been aiming for 'lower' scale instability, with the acts of Balak being an unplanned, unintended outlier.

#135
Nathan Redgrave

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DPSSOC wrote...

Second the Alliance didn't (still doesn't) want a war with the Batarians. 


This is a non-issue. The point is that the Batarian government couldn't be held responsible in any real way.

#136
PrinceLionheart

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packardbell wrote...

Of course the batarians will want to spin this as much as they can.


It's not exactly hard to spin nuking an entire system.

#137
DPSSOC

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Nathan Redgrave wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Second the Alliance didn't (still doesn't) want a war with the Batarians. 


This is a non-issue. The point is that the Batarian government couldn't be held responsible in any real way.


Sure they could.  It's known, or generally accepted at least, that the Batarian Hegemony funnels money and weapons to pirates/slavers and incentivizes them to target humanity.  Balak claims to be such a pirate.  You don't need anything more than that; we don't even need that much if we're being perfectly honest.  All the Alliance needs to have grounds to start a war is enough info to convince their people and, to an extent, their allies that the Batarians were responsible.  For the people that's easy; a Batarian did it, the Batarians are responsible.  For allies we have established past behaviour (Batarians fund Pirates), scope of the project (no way some 2-bit Pirate funded this on his own), and potentially a confession (Balak's claim that he's acting on behalf of the government).  All you need are 2 out of 3 to conivnce your allies not to stop you (though not support you).

#138
Nathan Redgrave

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DPSSOC wrote...

Sure they could.  It's known, or generally accepted at least, that the Batarian Hegemony funnels money and weapons to pirates/slavers and incentivizes them to target humanity.  Balak claims to be such a pirate.


No, he doesn't. Balak's only claims involved a "batarian rebellion," but he was vague on the details and certainly never mentioned the Hegemony.

You don't need anything more than that; we don't even need that much if we're being perfectly honest.  All the Alliance needs to have grounds to start a war is enough info to convince their people and, to an extent, their allies that the Batarians were responsible.


No--they need to convince people that the batarian government was responsible. Suspicion is not enough to do that with. No matter how "generally accepted" something is, you would need something a little more real if you wanted to bring that accusation to the table.

For the people that's easy; a Batarian did it, the Batarians are responsible.


By which logic the Alliance could be held accountable for Cerberus.

(Balak's claim that he's acting on behalf of the government).


He never claimed such.

#139
Moiaussi

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Nathan Redgrave wrote...

No, he doesn't. Balak's only claims involved a "batarian rebellion," but he was vague on the details and certainly never mentioned the Hegemony.

No--they need to convince people that the batarian government was responsible. Suspicion is not enough to do that with. No matter how "generally accepted" something is, you would need something a little more real if you wanted to bring that accusation to the table.


You seem to be approaching this as if there is some sort of huge Batarian sympathy movement, or as if popular opinion has no biases. The evidence is that if there are any biases, they are anti-Batarian, not pro.

By which logic the Alliance could be held accountable for Cerberus.


The Alliance openly condems Cerberus, labels them as terrorist and stages operations against them. There is no evidence of any of that from the Batarians with respect to piracy or terrorism in the Terminus systems or Verge.

#140
lolfanboi

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I think Batarians are the most similar species to humans.

Modifié par lolfanboi, 28 mai 2011 - 07:41 .


#141
DPSSOC

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Nathan Redgrave wrote...
No, he doesn't. Balak's only claims involved a "batarian rebellion," but he was vague on the details and certainly never mentioned the Hegemony.


Been a while, have to replay, could have sworn

Nathan Redgrave wrote...
No--they need to convince people that the batarian government was responsible.


You imply a disparity where none exists.  The Batarians work hard to control the media that get's out, as far as the Alliance public is aware there is no dissent among Batarians, no conflict, with regards to how they operate.  This means Batarian pirates are viewed as an extension of the government rather than a separate group.

Nathan Redgrave wrote...
Suspicion is not enough to do that with. No matter how "generally accepted" something is, you would need something a little more real if you wanted to bring that accusation to the table.


Sure it is.  People aren't bright (people the social construct not the plural person); look at the treatment of Japanese-Canadians in World War 2 or the McCarthy era in the US for a good example of just how far the people will go on baseless suspicion.  Suspecting the Batarian Hegemony of having funded Balak's attack isn't baseless.

Nathan Redgrave wrote...
By which logic the Alliance could be held accountable for Cerberus.


Yes they could.  However the Alliance publicly opposes Cerberus which, combined with a lot of luck, has kept this from happening.  The Hegemony on the other hand does not oppose the actions of people like Balak (publicly or otherwise) and in fact publicly encourage them.  Dean may be right and Balak went farther than the Hegemony would have liked (risking a war with the Alliance rather than just knipping at their heels), but they do encourage attacks against humanity.

#142
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Dean_the_Young wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Nathan Redgrave wrote...
Anyway, there's nothing to suggest that Balak's attack on Terra Nova was endorsed by the Batarian Hegemony


Except for the fact the Batarian Hegemony has been funding pirates/slavers/terrorists to attack humanity since we met them.

Strictly speaking, yes and no.

While the Batarians have been making an environment in which terrorism/piracy/slaving can exist easily, that doesn't necessarily mean they back any individual act in particular. It's one of the controlled risk aspects of creating such turbulence: the Hegemony could have been aiming for 'lower' scale instability, with the acts of Balak being an unplanned, unintended outlier.

And with this, Balak's actions could be seen as the result of the gross irresponsibiltiy of the Hegemony's stance on attacks on humans

#143
Dean_the_Young

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And by the same measure, the Council's response to the Geth invasion was a grossly irresponsible stance.

Grossly irresponsible stances don't change the (lack of) responsibility of origins of specific acts.

#144
Teknor

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lolfanboi wrote...

I think Batarians are the most similar species to humans.


Yes. They are pretty similar. No distinctive racial attribute unlike other races.

#145
Yakko77

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lolfanboi wrote...

I think Batarians are the most similar species to humans.


Except like the "skinjobs" of the new BSG, they take the worst traits of humanity and multiply it by a factor of at least x10 while still hating humanity for those traits which they compound.  The "skinjob"  Cylons wiped out 99.9% of humanity and yet were borderline "offended" when those who survived tried to kill as many of them as they could in order to survive.  Well excuse humanity for taking offense to having their culture, civilization, socierty and outright survival virtualy taken out.  For all its faults, humanity never carried out a crime worthy of the acts that the Cylons carried out in BSG  or the act that Balak tried to carry out on Terra Nova.  Thus far, it just seems that extremism from batarians is the rule and not the exception while humanity as a whole at least strives though often fails to resist such acts.  Take the incident in ME2 where you can rescue Mordins assistant, Daniel.  If you spare the batarians, they spout off about human nobility and how they didn't  know it existed.  Excuse me?!?!?  They were the ones about to SHOOT AN  UNARMED  DOCTOR AND THEY'RE  LECTURING  ME  ABOUT  "NOBILITY"?!?!?!?  That's the kind of extremism and outright brainwashing I pretty much expect from the vast majority of batarians.  If it's an issue in ME3, paragon or renegade, I will NOT  let their ignorance of humanity threaten humanity.  I WILL  take them out along with the Reapers if need be.  IF there's a way to enlighten them and get them to join the greater cause against the Reaper threat, then I'll take that route but I'm not holding my breath.  BW  did too good of a job creating a race that is easy to despise.  Iy'll take a lot for the batarians to redeem themselves.  For the most part, especially for my paragon/paragade Sheps, I  hope it's an option.

Modifié par Yakko77, 29 mai 2011 - 06:13 .