24 réponses à ce sujet

[dragonflight288]

I figured this would be a great place for pro-mages and/or pro-templars to gather together and rationally come up with a better system than the Andrastian Circle of Magi.

I will post my thoughts on what NOT should be included in a new circle, and I suppose go from there.

First thing I believe should be banned is the Right of Tranquility in its entirety. Maybe keep it for volunteer apprentices who don't want to go through the Harrowing, but other than that, completely eliminate it.

Secondly, individual templars must NOT be allowed into the mages quarters without supervision. Inspections may be all right if the mage is suspected of being a blood mage or something, but a single templar and a single mage in a room...no.

Allow mages to have families, and not take the children practically from birth. And if they need to be seperated from their families, allow visits from parents.

The whole point of the circle is to keep mages safe from a prejudice world and to keep them safe in an environment that limites the risk of becoming abominations. So in a perfect world (which doesn't exist, as I'm fully aware), the chantry should STOP preaching that mages are cursed beings and magic causes nothing but misery. You will either get mages like Keili who hate themselves, or mages like Anders who hates the entire system and generally comes to believe its mages vs everyone. I won't get into Justice's influence there, not part of this thread.

Another thing, which doesn't directly affect mages, is to not supply lyrium to the templars. They can use their abilites without lyrium, so get rid of the addiction.

Thoughts?

[Silent X]

Everything you mentioned would certainly be a significant improvement, in my view.

Back before I hit Act III and it became apparent that the whole city of Kirkwall had gone completely insane, I pondered what I would do about the mage situation if I had my druthers. About as far as I got was deciding that, if possible, I would eliminate the Circle of Magi and try to integrate mages into society. There would still be templars, but rather than being the jailors of all mages, they would function more like a specialized police force and deal with mages who had actually committed crimes. Would such a system work? I don't know for sure, and I know it couldn't be implemented smoothly overnight. But it's what my Hawke would have striven for had everything not gone completely to hell. However, such a solution looks increasingly unlikely given the events of the endgame.

My bottom line is that I think it's wrong to imprison people who've done nothing wrong. The fact that they might isn't sufficient justification. Do we lock up everyone because anyone could hurt anyone? No, of course we don't. Yes, mages are potentially more dangerous, but they are born mages and they aren't born evil. The Chantry can get away with imprisoning them because they're a minority. That doesn't make it right.

Ultimately, I would want to end the confinement of mages in Circles, but I don't want to create a second Tevinter. I hope that later installments will give us some proactive options for resolving the mage-templar war.

[dragonflight288]

Nice views on magic. Mages DO need a place to study magic and learn the dangers of demons and the fade. The circle does a good job there. And should a mage become possessed during a Harrowing, the circle does have security measures to prevent it from getting out of hand.

Plus, some mages (Finn) don't really care about leaving the circle. They find the greatest joy using the resources of the circle to handle their own individual research projects. Like Finn and the eluvians.

But I agree in allowing mages to try and integrate themselves into society. The only problem is that so many people in Thedas is prejudiced against magic. Ser Perth in Redcliff refuses anything that may involve magic, but will accept useless trinkets as divine protection.

[Silent X]

You have a point about education being very important for mages, but I wouldn't want to forcibly take them from their families. If the Circle could be sufficiently repurposed as a school and not a prison, it could work. But I still wouldn't want to make sending mage children there mandatory. In an ideal system (again, definitely not going to happen overnight, but something to work toward, I hope), parents of children who manifested magical ability wouldn't have to be fearful, and could maybe have a choice between sending their children to the Circle (like a boarding school) or being set up with a tutor who could teach them at home.

You're right that the Circle isn't all bad for everyone. I'm afraid I don't remember Finn. Is he from Origins? It's been awhile since I played through the Circle there. As a school/university, I'd be all for it. But not as a prison. If participation were voluntary, and harrowed mages could live their lives like other people, it could work. And I think there would probably be some harrowed mages who would be willing to tutor young mages who didn't want to go to the Circle, or whose parents didn't want to send them.

Of course, the success of such a system would depend on the general populace learning to see mages as people and not monsters, which would take some work.

[The Baconer]

Off-topic: Same ****, different topic.

On-topic: I am a strong advocate of Tevinter-style governance.

[Dave of Canada]

If they approached most of my character(s) asking me to change / keep some features, here's how they'd handle it:

If society doesn't fear mages, they might think to themselves "Oh, mages aren't that bad" and keep them at home. What happens when something like Redcliffe happens, who'd suddenly be blamed? The mages! Society would probably loathe the mages should they find out that their entire town was wiped out because of a child accepted a lollipop from the Desire Demon. So, rather than leaving them to find out by sudden surprises, I'd have them keep talking about the dangers of magic.

With the fear, it creates a system where the people police mages themselves, they call upon templar and apostates have to be careful about showing any sign of magic or they'd suddenly have everybody rat them out to the templar.
I wouldn't remove the Rite of Tranquility either, it serves it's purpose when properly used. Blood Mages should be made tranquil or executed, at least with tranquillity they can live out their lives (inside or outside the Circle) while execution just ends them right there. Let's also not forget how some mages request to be made tranquil themselves.
Wouldn't let them keep families or children either, that places them at risk as they have something to lose. Demons might be able to use it against them, Connor is an example of what could happen. Mages in the Circle don't have much for demons to tempt them with. In addition to this, we already know the large majority of mages don't even care about having families.

If I'd change anything, it's maybe have inspections done by the Seekers on a yearly basis. Alternating the Seekers each year at random, meaning one Seeker wouldn't be constantly on the move every year and that chances of Seekers coming to different opinions being higher.

Each of them supporting one idea of a Circle (decided by the Grand Enchanter and White Divine), not allowing any for going too strict or any from going too liberal. This would stop Circles from being one-sided for either the Templar or the Mage, wouldn't want any of them gaining too much influence.

My extremist Hawke:
Disband the Circles, kill mages when magic is detected.

My extremist (mage) Hawke:
Let people who pass their Harrowing be able to leave the Circles.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 26 mai 2011 - 02:05 .

[Zanallen]

I would allow mages to live outside of the circles after their Harrowing and extensive training. This basic training would be control, avoidance of demons and practical skills like healing. If they wanted to stay within the circle, they would become a sort of magic military force. Within this force, they would be taught offensive magic. However, I would keep phylacteries in place to track down mages suspected of committing crimes. Mages would work for the crown in times of war and would be paid a small stipend during peace time. Every year or two, I would have mages check in with a circle to "renew their license".

[KnightofPhoenix]

Why didn't I notice this thread before? I was just talking about my ideas and I don't want to repeat myslf just yet. Pity. 

Dave of Canada wrote...
With the fear, it creates a system where the people police mages themselves

I'd substitute fear with caution.
Fear is irrational and clouds judgement. And can be too easily manipulated to become extreme. Fear breeds more fear. And at the risk of sounding like Yoda, it breeds even more problems and mutual hatred.

I don't think people fearing mages and mages fearing people as a result is a healthy system to have.

[dragonflight288]

If they approached most of my character(s) asking me to change / keep some features, here's how they'd handle it:

If
society doesn't fear mages, they might think to themselves "Oh, mages
aren't that bad" and keep them at home. What happens when something like
Redcliffe happens, who'd suddenly be blamed? The mages! Society would
probably loathe the mages should they find out that their entire town
was wiped out because of a child accepted a lollipop from the Desire
Demon. So, rather than leaving them to find out by sudden surprises, I'd
have them keep talking about the dangers of magic.

With the
fear, it creates a system where the people police mages themselves, they
call upon templar and apostates have to be careful about showing any
sign of magic or they'd suddenly have everybody rat them out to the
templar.
I wouldn't remove the Rite of Tranquility either, it serves
it's purpose when properly used. Blood Mages should be made tranquil or
executed, at least with tranquillity they can live out their lives
(inside or outside the Circle) while execution just ends them right
there. Let's also not forget how some mages request to be made tranquil
themselves.
Wouldn't let them keep families or children either, that
places them at risk as they have something to lose. Demons might be able
to use it against them, Connor is an example of what could happen.
Mages in the Circle don't have much for demons to tempt them with. In
addition to this, we already know the large majority of mages don't even
care about having families.

If I'd change anything, it's maybe
have inspections done by the Seekers on a yearly basis. Alternating the
Seekers each year at random, meaning one Seeker wouldn't be constantly
on the move every year and that chances of Seekers coming to different
opinions being higher.

Each of them supporting one idea of a
Circle (decided by the Grand Enchanter and White Divine), not allowing
any for going too strict or any from going too liberal. This would stop
Circles from being one-sided for either the Templar or the Mage,
wouldn't want any of them gaining too much influence.

My extremist Hawke:
Disband the Circles, kill mages when magic is detected.

My extremist (mage) Hawke:
Let people who pass their Harrowing be able to leave the Circles.

Hmm. An interesting system. And the tranquil do serve a function. In my original post, I got rid of it except for those who volunteer. Many mages may not like that system, with the fear of tranquility being forced on them. Blood mages (outside the grey wardens), well I suppose I would give them punishment based off the crimes they commit. One blood mage may only use his or her own life force and nothing more. Another may be like Quentin and be a serial killer. In Quentin's case, it would be tranquility or death. But in cases like Merrill, she hasn't committed any crimes. She has broken no laws (except the one of living outside the circle) and no punishment would be needed.

I like your idea of having the Seekers investigating the templars annually. That way, if a Knight-Commander won't crack down on their subordinates, the Seekers will. And may replace the Knight-Commander as needed.

But the rest of the system pretty much sounds like how it's run. Something big happens and everyone points fingers at the person in charge or the person with power. Mages and leaders apply. And if the chantry constantly preaches that magic is a curse, the prejudice greatly increases. I'm not such a shortsighted person not to realize that because magic is rare, prejudice will exist regardless.

But the dangers of magic should be taught from a young age. Connors situation was partly Isolde's fault for trying to have Connor learn ONLY enough to hide his talent, and he was only being taught recently. He probably wasn't taught all the dangers of the fade and dealing with demons. I don't know everything Jowan taught him, but I do know Isolde only wanted a small amount to be learned.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 26 mai 2011 - 02:18 .

[Nerdage]

1. Don't sever family connection when they're brought to the circle, and allow visits.

2. Once they're sufficiently trained, let them go, but have them check in with the local chantry every day/week/millennia (let someone else figure out the logistics bit, I'm just ideas).

3. Perhaps put them to use in whatever town they choose to live in as healers/fire-lighters (again, not my department..).

Otherwise, business as usual. Perhaps take authority over the right of tranquillity away from just one/two people, seems like it really deserves a proper trial.

[dragonflight288]

Match the punishment to the crime? Seems logical to me.

[Foolsfolly]

I figured this would be a great place for pro-mages and/or pro-templars to gather together and rationally come up with a better system than the Andrastian Circle of Magi.

I don't think BioWare was interested in establishing a new status quo. Interviews from the devs make me think they were really adamant about not having a status quo at the end of the game. So everything's still up in the air a small bit.

So no resolution, no trying to solve the problem, in fact they don't even focus on the problem outside of side quests until the first part of Act 3. After that it doesn't really care about the issue because it's about an insane woman over-reacting to an Abomination at that point.

[GavrielKay]

One big thing that would help the mages is to take religion out of the mix. Replacing the current Chantry run circles with state run boarding schools would be a vast improvement. Religion is best when giving people general moral guidelines rather than having their own army and prison system.

[In Exile]

GavrielKay wrote...

One big thing that would help the mages is to take religion out of the mix. Replacing the current Chantry run circles with state run boarding schools would be a vast improvement. Religion is best when giving people general moral guidelines rather than having their own army and prison system.

That brings politics into it. What do you think expansionist rulers will do once you've handed them their own private mage army? I agree that religion needs to go, but the counter-balance to the mages has to be a transnational organization.

[Foolsfolly]

Plus the politics of dealing with the religion and the mages. You want the people who believe in the Chant and the power and aid of the Chantry then a nation will behave a certain way. Kings and Queens will always be symbols of the status quo. So when you say 'state owned' you've really just changed the color of the hat not the one wearing the hat.

Likewise, there's no democracy or republic or due process in Thedas (that we've seen anyway). Why should the mages get a better system than the poor or the elves or the dwarves?

One side should win and establish the new status quo. To the victor the spoils.

[Rifneno]

I'm unconvinced the harrowing is even necessary.  If mages can give into demons at any time, then why is it such a big deal that they're forced to say no to a demon once, after having spent 20~ years as a mage?  I think it has to do with the fact the harrow actually sends mages into the Fade using lyrium.  I don't know the specifics but it sure sounds like they're being forced into a situation where they're in far more danger than they ever would be normally.

[Dave of Canada]

Rifneno wrote...

I'm unconvinced the harrowing is even necessary.  If mages can give into demons at any time, then why is it such a big deal that they're forced to say no to a demon once, after having spent 20~ years as a mage?  I think it has to do with the fact the harrow actually sends mages into the Fade using lyrium.  I don't know the specifics but it sure sounds like they're being forced into a situation where they're in far more danger than they ever would be normally.

Mages have to deal with demons every single moment (awake or sleeping), being defeated by the rage demon means that the mage in question would've lost (and become an abomination) should a demon have tried to possess them with brute force.

The Harrowing tests them to see if they'll be able to defend themselves in these situations, if they failed then they can slay the abomination before it causes any damages to everybody else. Mage or Templar. It's why they tranquil mages who are probably not going to pass the Harrowing (by not being adept at using spells or whatever), they don't want them to be possessed and execution for absolutely nothing isn't something they'd consider.

While speculation, it wouldn't surprise me to see non-Andrastian cultures having something similar (except for maybe the Saarebas) to test their mages. I doubt they'd want to leave the mage to roam around or learn more dangerous magics if he doesn't know how to defend himself against basic threats that are always trying to get in.

I don't know if Mouse was supposed to be part of the Warden's test, I doubt they'd summon a Pride Demon for a lone apprentice to fight.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 26 mai 2011 - 06:59 .

[TEWR]

you fiend! We had the "Siding with the Templars is fine, siding with Meredith isn't thread" and now you've destroyed it! I'm going to go cry now.....


anyway, you've already seen a lot of my posts on how the lot of both mages and the general populus can be improved while still retaining the same level of safety the Circles provide.

[Plaintiff]

- The Chantry is inherently biased against mages so the first step is to disassociate from it entirely and form their own internal governance system.

- The second step is to negotiate with the dwarves directly to break the Chantry's monopoly on lyrium.

- Simultaneously, they should negotiate with nobles to purchase property, petition for support, etc etc so they can expand and start establishing facilities in other, more populated areas. Isolation is a big part of the problem.

- Start an information campaign to counteract the centuries of mage-hate generated by the Chantry.

- As mentioned above, expand and construct facilities in other areas to cut-down on the whole "yanking children away from their families forever" thing. Also establish a system that allows for private tuition, for those who want and can afford it.

- Allow visits for family members and approved leave for students.

- Emphasize the Circle's benefits: education, free accomodation and food, etc.

- Allow mages time outside the tower to mingle with local non-mages. Young students would go in groups, with chaperones. Older students would be allowed time out on their own, with a curfew in place. It should be understood that students who break curfew will face consequences, execution should NOT be one of them.

- Instruct mage students to ignore the biases of the chantry. Empower them to see their abilities as a gift, rather than a curse, and instruct them in all the ways it can help people.

- The way The Harrowing works is utterly retarded. Instead of blindsiding them with that bull**** (or worse, assuming they'll fail). Instruct them in warding demons, and supplement this instruction with regular practical exercises conducted in the Fade, with an accompanying instructor.

- Allow mages to leave once their tuition is complete. Have a certification system in place so mages can demonstrate that they have completed their training and have earned the right to autonomy without supervision.

[Foolsfolly]

Rifneno wrote...

I'm unconvinced the harrowing is even necessary.  If mages can give into demons at any time, then why is it such a big deal that they're forced to say no to a demon once, after having spent 20~ years as a mage?  I think it has to do with the fact the harrow actually sends mages into the Fade using lyrium.  I don't know the specifics but it sure sounds like they're being forced into a situation where they're in far more danger than they ever would be normally.

Agreed. Especially since the demons are aware of the Harrowing and seemingly await for mages to undergo it. At least, that's what I gathered from the Pride Demon in the Mage Origin in the first game.

[Plaintiff]

Foolsfolly wrote...
Pride Demon

Actually, they prefer "Spirit of Self-Esteem".

[Vit246]

The only real purpose I can see for the Harrowing is to assure and appease the non-magical Andrastian population that Harrowed mages have proven themselves against demons, whether the Harrowing actually proves or does anything. Actually, I can imagine it at least provides basic training and experience for mages to defend against spirits in a relatively controlled environment.

Modifié par Vit246, 26 mai 2011 - 07:40 .

[TEWR]

The Harrowing is flawed greatly. Plaintiff's idea on how to properly do the Harrowing combined with the Dalish way of defending yourself in the Fade would be the best way of making sure mages can defend themselves against spirits in the Fade.

[Foolsfolly]

Plaintiff wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...
Pride Demon

Actually, they prefer "Spirit of Self-Esteem".

:D:D:D

[dragonflight288]

Actually, they prefer "Spirit of Self-Esteem".

HAHAHA, that was a good one.

The way The Harrowing works is utterly retarded. Instead of blindsiding them with that bull**** (or worse, assuming they'll fail). Instruct them in warding demons, and supplement this instruction with regular practical exercises conducted in the Fade, with an accompanying instructor.

I'm guessing there may be a small problem with that with the lyrium use. So long as the Circle receives lyrium from the chantry, they will only have a small portion of it, and they do need lyrium for several spells, like helping Connor.