252 réponses à ce sujet

[Mecher3k]

AwesomeEffect2 wrote...

- No more DAO underwear ( lol que? )
- Companions and other NPCs show how they care for the main character ( yea because in DA:O no one cared at all for you )
- Less linear skill trees ( Not really, just the UI was different )
- Being able to change appearance ( Derp )
- Better male and female body shapes ( I have other things for that so never paid attention )

[Davasar]

It drove away many who would have bought a true successor to DAO.

Oh, and it also ensured that many will not pre-order Biowares products sight unseen.

And it drove away it's much of its core audience.

Great Job

[Whisky]

Generating hate.

[Sengoku no Maou]

A deeper look into the workings of the Qun and the Qunari.
Aveline
Mages and templars finally going at it.
The combat (minus the exploding bodies)

Modifié par Sengoku no Maou, 28 mai 2011 - 07:23 .

[Anti-villain]

Combat was faster (although the waves of enemies taints this somewhat).
-The companions were to me as interesting as the DAO companions, particularly Varric and Aveline (although none were as good as Morrigan, Alistair, Shale or Sten).
-The re-design of the Deep Roads.
-The idea of further exploring the mage/templar conflict.

[Daveros]

bEVEsthda wrote...

Now the first thread like this had a lot of people, who liked DA2, posting about the things they adored. Since many of those things are exactly the same things that make a lot of us others blow out temple veins, they ARE NOT THINGS DA2 did "right". They may well be *Things I liked in DA2*, but they are definitely not hings done "right".   

 

I absolutely challenge this. It seems to me that you are saying: "If you like it, but I do not, it cannot be the correct thing to have done.", which is just ridiculous.

I think Dragon Age 2 did more right than just about any sequel I have ever played. It took the game in a direction that stopped it from being a repetitive indulgance solely for fans of the older schools of RPG and made it into a very interesting property. It needs polishing, yes, but it's streets ahead of DA:O already.

If all you're going to focus on is not being able to change armour on your companions, or NPCs not running from the rain ("What? The weather doesn't change in ten years? My God, I can't play this game!"), then you'll miss one of the best games of recent years; and it'll be all your own fault.

[neppakyo]

Daveros wrote...

I absolutely challenge this. It seems to me that you are saying: "If you like it, but I do not, it cannot be the correct thing to have done.", which is just ridiculous.

I think Dragon Age 2 did more right than just about any sequel I have ever played. It took the game in a direction that stopped it from being a repetitive indulgance solely for fans of the older schools of RPG and made it into a very interesting property. It needs polishing, yes, but it's streets ahead of DA:O already.

If all you're going to focus on is not being able to change armour on your companions, or NPCs not running from the rain ("What? The weather doesn't change in ten years? My God, I can't play this game!"), then you'll miss one of the best games of recent years; and it'll be all your own fault.

So, you're ok with a story told badly, with gaping plot holes, spotted with immersion breakers?

Best game in recent years? Sorry. No. Wrong. Its fine that you like it (kudos that you can, but sorry I have higher standards). Its an average game, bug filled, broken story, no choices that matter at all. As far as bioware studio quality games? Worst one for them. Same pile as The Sonic game.


Happy that people enjoy it, I am if it doesn't come across.

Modifié par neppakyo, 30 mai 2011 - 03:17 .

[Daveros]

neppakyo wrote...

So, you're ok with a story told badly, with gaping plot holes, spotted with immersion breakers?

Best game in recent years? Sorry. No. Wrong. Its fine that you like it (kudos that you can, but sorry I have higher standards). Its an average game, bug filled, broken story, no choices that matter at all. As far as bioware studio quality games? Worst one for them. Same pile as The Sonic game.


Happy that people enjoy it, I am if it doesn't come across.

The story wasn't badly told, it just wasn't what you wanted. Gaping plot holes? I'm struggling to think of any; the plot happened exactly as it should have, how it was set up and how it was told. What, you didn't like it? That's not a plot hole.

Immersion breaking is a tough one to call. I tend to notice I'm playing a game most of the time - things like clipping pull me out of a game more rapidly than Templars not reacting to what's going on around them. YMMV, so you can have that one.

Best game in recent years? Absolutely. I'm sorry you didn't like it (It's a shame you didn't, but you may not have the same taste that I do, shock horror.). It's a great game, with less bugs than Origins where there's still parts of the game I haven't played due to them not ever firing (And the less than can be said about gifts the better.). It's got a wonderful story that actually respects its audience (No, it didn't hold your hand, it challenged you. Good on it.). As far as Bioware Studios goes, it's pretty darn good - although there's always going to be some stiff competition.

[Anathemic]

Daveros wrote...

neppakyo wrote...

So, you're ok with a story told badly, with gaping plot holes, spotted with immersion breakers?

Best game in recent years? Sorry. No. Wrong. Its fine that you like it (kudos that you can, but sorry I have higher standards). Its an average game, bug filled, broken story, no choices that matter at all. As far as bioware studio quality games? Worst one for them. Same pile as The Sonic game.


Happy that people enjoy it, I am if it doesn't come across.

The story wasn't badly told, it just wasn't what you wanted. Gaping plot holes? I'm struggling to think of any; the plot happened exactly as it should have, how it was set up and how it was told. What, you didn't like it? That's not a plot hole.

Immersion breaking is a tough one to call. I tend to notice I'm playing a game most of the time - things like clipping pull me out of a game more rapidly than Templars not reacting to what's going on around them. YMMV, so you can have that one.

Best game in recent years? Absolutely. I'm sorry you didn't like it (It's a shame you didn't, but you may not have the same taste that I do, shock horror.). It's a great game, with less bugs than Origins where there's still parts of the game I haven't played due to them not ever firing (And the less than can be said about gifts the better.). It's got a wonderful story that actually respects its audience (No, it didn't hold your hand, it challenged you. Good on it.). As far as Bioware Studios goes, it's pretty darn good - although there's always going to be some stiff competition.

Best game in recent years? The best game in recent years? Yeah no. Diablo 2 is still leagues ahead of the fail action rpg imitation that is DA2.

[neppakyo]

Daveros wrote...

neppakyo wrote...

So, you're ok with a story told badly, with gaping plot holes, spotted with immersion breakers?

Best game in recent years? Sorry. No. Wrong. Its fine that you like it (kudos that you can, but sorry I have higher standards). Its an average game, bug filled, broken story, no choices that matter at all. As far as bioware studio quality games? Worst one for them. Same pile as The Sonic game.


Happy that people enjoy it, I am if it doesn't come across.

The story wasn't badly told, it just wasn't what you wanted. Gaping plot holes? I'm struggling to think of any; the plot happened exactly as it should have, how it was set up and how it was told. What, you didn't like it? That's not a plot hole.

Immersion breaking is a tough one to call. I tend to notice I'm playing a game most of the time - things like clipping pull me out of a game more rapidly than Templars not reacting to what's going on around them. YMMV, so you can have that one.

Best game in recent years? Absolutely. I'm sorry you didn't like it (It's a shame you didn't, but you may not have the same taste that I do, shock horror.). It's a great game, with less bugs than Origins where there's still parts of the game I haven't played due to them not ever firing (And the less than can be said about gifts the better.). It's got a wonderful story that actually respects its audience (No, it didn't hold your hand, it challenged you. Good on it.). As far as Bioware Studios goes, it's pretty darn good - although there's always going to be some stiff competition.

Taken from another thread about gaping plot holes.

LobselVith8 wrote..

"Considering how guards and templars don't even recognize that Hawke is a mage for most of Acts I and II, and the same is true for Bethany until the end of Act I, would it have been that different? I get more of an apostate POV from Bethany than I do as an apostate Hawke, and even then it's only a few lines from her explaining how it feels to be an illegal mage rather than seeing templars hunting them or dealing with the difficulties of life as an apostate. It may as well be non-existant.

Does Thrask recognize that Hawke is a mage if he's an apostate and uses magic right in front of him? No. Does Cullen recognize a mage Hawke when he uses magic in front of him? No. Does the Arishok recognize a mage Hawke? No. Where is the altering nature of magic in the storyline when it's ignored for the most part? Even a mage Warden governing the nearby arling of Amaranthine as the new Arl is ignored, despite the fact that it should be at least mentioned in a story that has an entire Act focused on the dichotomy between the mages and the templars."

http://social.biowar...8268/15#7495057

[ironysteeth]

Played through the game twice. I enjoy the various abilities in the talent trees. Also, on the rogue "approach strike", I LOVE IT. It's kinda like playing "Frogger" but you squish the baddies instead pouncing away from them. Its like you jump in the air then its "Ribbit" and squish. Didnt squish it? backstab follow up. Did you pounce yourself into a troublesome trio of baddies? That's alright Evade. Thats a back pounce away, and the 3some baddies are sucking in your contrails and get dizzy. have your 2hander guy scythe them down . Have to say it's a blast playing the rogue. Always on the move, always looking tactically at the the battle field. Always looking for stun/stagger oppurtunities, and finishing off the stun/staggered/glyphed victims of the party mage.

[Daveros]

neppakyo wrote...

Taken from another thread about gaping plot holes.

http://social.biowar...8268/15#7495057

None of that feels like a "plot" hole, to me. Yes, it may break immersion but it's no "plot" hole. None of my companions ever mention that I've just spawned an ubermassive Dog right in front of their eyes from nothing, but that's not a plot hole.

And seriously, it's not something I even noticed before people kept pointing it out here. How many people would actually notice if it wasn't up in bloody neon on the forums?

[neppakyo]

So, the story and plot about mage vs templar, and how the templars are crushing the mages, making them tranquil.. and if you happen to be amage, and have mage companions that isn't a plot hole?

*shakes head*

[Daveros]

neppakyo wrote...

So, the story and plot about mage vs templar, and how the templars are crushing the mages, making them tranquil.. and if you happen to be amage, and have mage companions that isn't a plot hole?

*shakes head*

I have as much of a problem with walking into the Viscount's office with a sword strapped to my back (and then going through his bin) as I do with walking up to a Templar with a staff in my hands. You know how much that is? None.

Both, theoretically, should have consequences; but it's still a game. Once they can tackle the problem I will be glad, but it's a limitation of the game which is quite clearly signposted along the way. It's got nothing to do with the plot.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

What about fighting and using Blood Magic in front of them?

That certainly has plot implications. The cosmetic look of you being Mage-like is forgivable to a degree, although other games are able to keep things consistent in this area but casting magic in front of them, Blood Magic no less, is a different matter, especially when the crux of the story is about the relationship between Templars and Mages.

I'm not sure about a technical limitation rather than a "we didn't have time or a we couldn't be bothered" problem. After all, Athkatla.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 30 mai 2011 - 04:19 .

[neppakyo]

mrcrusty wrote...

What about fighting and using Blood Magic in front of them?

That certainly has plot implications. The cosmetic look of you being Mage-like is forgivable to a degree, but casting magic in front of them, Blood Magic no less, is a different matter, especially when the crux of the story is about the relationship between Templars and Mages.

I'm not sure about a technical limitation rather than a "we didn't have time or a we couldn't be bothered" problem. After all, Athkatla.

Even in the witcher, you draw your sword, and the guards will come and warn you to put it away, and if you don't..

Nothing of the sort in DA2. If they had something like that, you know makes you be low key and if you happen to do something, templar guards come for you.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

I don't think a comparison to the Witcher 2 is needed when a Bioware game from 10 years ago did it already.

[Daveros]

mrcrusty wrote...

What about fighting and using Blood Magic in front of them?

That certainly has plot implications. The cosmetic look of you being Mage-like is forgivable to a degree, but casting magic in front of them, Blood Magic no less, is a different matter, especially when the crux of the story is about the relationship between Templars and Mages.

I'm not sure about a technical limitation rather than a "we didn't have time or a we couldn't be bothered" problem. After all, Athkatla.

Do any characters, outside of your main party and quest related characters, ever react to what's going on around them? If they did, I would most certainly agree with you. It's not a problem exclusive to Dragon Age 2, either.

It's a limitation of the game, not a plot hole, and certainly not a deal breaker.

[neppakyo]

mrcrusty wrote...

I don't think a comparison to the Witcher 2 is needed when a Bioware game from 10 years ago did it already.

True, but Baldurs gate gets people accusing you of having rose tinted nostalgia glasses.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Daveros wrote...

mrcrusty wrote...

What about fighting and using Blood Magic in front of them?

That certainly has plot implications. The cosmetic look of you being Mage-like is forgivable to a degree, but casting magic in front of them, Blood Magic no less, is a different matter, especially when the crux of the story is about the relationship between Templars and Mages.

I'm not sure about a technical limitation rather than a "we didn't have time or a we couldn't be bothered" problem. After all, Athkatla.

Do any characters, outside of your main party and quest related characters, ever react to what's going on around them? If they did, I would most certainly agree with you. It's not a problem exclusive to Dragon Age 2, either.

It's a limitation of the game, not a plot hole, and certainly not a deal breaker.

Oh, I see your point. That's okay then.

It's not a plot hole, it's that Dragon Age 2 was either poorly thought out, poorly executed or the developers just didn't care for reactivity and consistency.

neppakyo wrote...

mrcrusty wrote...

I don't think a comparison to the Witcher 2 is needed when a Bioware game from 10 years ago did it already.

True, but Baldurs gate gets people accusing you of having rose tinted nostalgia glasses.

I find that stupid when talking about technical or design limitations. If anything, it should be much better in Dragon Age 2 because it's newer. Older games can do less than newer ones because of the tech.

But fine. Other contemporary examples of NPC reactivity?

Any Elder Scrolls game.

Any Fallout game.

Any Assassin's Creed game.

Any GTA game.

Any Witcher game.

And so on.

Not an impossible technical limitation. Either Bioware didn't have the time to put it in, or they didn't care to put it in. End of story.

Another prime example is playing as Nosferatu in Vampire: The Masquerde - Bloodlines.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 30 mai 2011 - 04:28 .

[RaenImrahl]

neppakyo wrote...

So, the story and plot about mage vs templar, and how the templars are crushing the mages, making them tranquil.. and if you happen to be amage, and have mage companions that isn't a plot hole?

*shakes head*

To me, the term "plot hole" implies some negligence or unintended mistake on the part of the writers.  For better or worse, I don't think this is the case in DA2 where mage characters and companions are concerned.  Given the story they chose to tell in DA2, I think it would have been difficult... or better, unenjoyble for the gamer... if mage Hawke or mage companions were totally under the heel of the templars from day one.  The alternative... to preserve the in game "logic" of the situation... would be to NOT allow gamers to play mages.  Imagine the bloody outcry if *that* had happened.

So I don't see it as a plot hole so much as a conscious choice... albeit one you can disagree with... by the writers.  Writers do this all the time.  In Tolkien's work, did it make sense of Aragorn to be tramping around half of Middle Earth armed with a broken sword?  On the face of it, no-- but Tolkien chose to do that (or at least strongly implied that) so he could have the sword reforged and revel Aragorn's role in prophesy. 

I haven't played DA2 yet as a mage.  So in my play-through, I had Bethany with me.  Around the end of Act I/beginning of Act II, there was some pretty significant mage-templar stuff with her. So they did address it in the game, though not, maybe, to the extent that the in-game "logic" would dictate.  Hence, it was a choice, for good or ill.

Modifié par RaenImrahl, 30 mai 2011 - 05:06 .

[Daveros]

mrcrusty wrote...

Oh, I see your point. That's okay then.

It's not a plot hole, it's that Dragon Age 2 was either poorly thought out, poorly executed or the developers just didn't care for reactivity and consistency.

I can agree with that. I put it down to the short turn around time, and I can live with that as I love the game. I would most definitely prefer a game which did react according to what was happening, but good examples of this still aren't common.

It's just not a plot hole, that's all.

[neppakyo]

RaenImrahl wrote...

neppakyo wrote...

So, the story and plot about mage vs templar, and how the templars are crushing the mages, making them tranquil.. and if you happen to be amage, and have mage companions that isn't a plot hole?

*shakes head*

To me, the term "plot hole" implies some negligence or unintended mistake on the part of the writers.  For better or worse, I don't think this is the case in DA2 where mage characters and companions are concerned.  Given the story they chose to tell in DA2, I think it would have been difficult... or better, unenjoyble for the gamer... mage Hawke or mage companions were totally under the heel of the templars from day one.  The alternative... to preserve the in game "logic" of the situation... would be to NOT allow gamers to play mages.  Imagine the bloody outcry if *that* had happened.

So I don't see it as a plot hole so much as a conscious choice... albeit one you can disagree with... by the writers.  Writers do this all the time.  In Tolkien's work, did it make sense of Aragorn to be tramping around half of Middle Earth armed with a broken sword?  On the face of it, no-- but Tolkien chose to do that (or at least strongly imply that) so he could have the sword reforged and revel Aragorn's role in prophesy. 

I haven't played DA2 yet as a mage.  So in my play-through, I had Bethany with me.  Around the end of Act I/beginning of Act II, there was some pretty significant mage-templar stuff with her. So they did address it in the game, though not, maybe, to the extent that the in-game "logic" would dictate.  Hence, it was a choice, for good or ill.

Good points! It just feels like a plot hole to me, or plain laziness. But what you said makes sense as well, and personally to me it was an ill choice.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

To me it borders on a plot hole, especially since games have the interactive element. What you do/see in gameplay is still part of the story.

But I can accept the argument it's not. It's just immersion breaking for me either way.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 30 mai 2011 - 04:32 .