60 réponses à ce sujet

[WhiteKnyght]

I know a lot of people say DAII has no story because the game is divided up into separate parts and each part has its own stuff happening and your choices don't always matter. But in a real life simulating perspective, it is more realistic because the game is about the life of Hawke over the course of seven years and what he/she experiences during his/her time in Kirkwall, not just a fantasy hero tasked with some overwhelming goal that he has to achieve within an unrealistic amount of time.

I mean really, how many of you guys can say that you've had big life changing problems in your lives that get magically resolved in five minutes because you kicked the right butt? In DAII Hawke lives in Kirkwall trying to work, provide for and protect his family, and make his way like many others, but lives around tensions between the Qunari and Kirkwall and the Templars and Mages and he keeps getting drawn in. And over time those tensions rise and conflict breaks out. 

And how many of you can say you have 100% control over the events of your lives and the others around you? I see the complaints about how choices don't matter, but how many of your RL opinions have the kind of influence you desire from this?

DAII is partly a fantasy-life-simulation in some senses. Not just an Action-Adventure RPG. I think the reason so many people do not understand this and expected it to live up to some sort of plot linearity that games have had for practically forever.

Long story short, in DAII, different things happen, people come and people go, and you get sucked into other people's stuff without much of a say in the issue. Just like real life.

[dgcatanisiri]

I totally agree. The problem is that everyone was expecting a fantasy epic, which traditionally involve becoming some utterly invincible hero who forces the world to change. DA2 is different because it is NOT about a 'Chosen One.' Just a man (or woman), who is fighting not for some noble purpose but simply to go on.

[AkumaBear]

It is certainly interesting that Hawke can actually spend time with his/her family, which isn't something you often do in a video game.

[Plaintiff]

I greatly appreciate DA2s efforts to break away from the traditional RPG formula. It really worked for me, in fact. I vastly prefer it to Origins.

But to my understanding, realism isn't what people are looking for when they pick up a fantasy game.

[Riloux]

Not really. After his family members either die or get pissed and run away from him, why does he stay in Kirkwall? He's rich and Kirkwall is a ****hole. He could go anywhere he wanted. Not very realistic.

Besides, I'm tired of people ****ting on fantasy 'save the world' games. They're fun, and that's why they're popular. Sure, Dragon Age: Origins had kind of a cliche premise, but it wasn't so much about the destination as it was about the journey. The meat of the game, the middle, was plenty original.

Modifié par Riloux, 26 mai 2011 - 07:34 .

[Foolsfolly]

Realism is not essentially preferable in fiction.

Stories have themes, emotional (and possibly action) beats, a plot, and a progression of events we call plot.

Life has none of these. No one's life has a plot or theme. There's just a series of events many of them repetitive (like going to work, driving from work, paying bills, eating, buying groceries, etc.).

Fiction is not real life. Fiction does not owe it to real life to obey real life's logic and progression.

So saying DA2 is more realistic because it's plot is lacking means nothing. A lacking plot is a problem for a story.

This is doubly so for video games where realism is beside the point. The point is gameplay and having the gameplay work (IE is not broken and glitched to holy hell) and that it's fun.

What you're thinking of is actually verisimilitude, which isn't quite realistic. This can be achieved by having deeper characters, social issues, and the setting feeling more alive than your average cardboard box. In this respect the DA setting has a hand up on something like the WarCraft setting. There are deep characters, social issues, and even political intrigue from time to time. The design of levels, Kirkwall, and the static-ness of everything undercut that in DA2 but that's not another issue entirely.

Back to topic for a closing bit: just because the plot's unfocused doesn't make it realistic and actually is a writing problem. The game feels like three episodes of a show or three issues of a comic book instead of a single story.

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 26 mai 2011 - 11:11 .

[Sinophile]

Plaintiff wrote...

I greatly appreciate DA2s efforts to break away from the traditional RPG formula. It really worked for me, in fact. I vastly prefer it to Origins.

But to my understanding, realism isn't what people are looking for when they pick up a fantasy game.

I believe that the OP is using "realistic" incorrectly, and is really talking about en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verisimilitude
Case in point: How come Phoenix down didn't work on Aeris when Sephiroth put a sword through her?

Also, let us remember the tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AcceptableBreaksFromReality

[Johnny20]

I wake up every day and it's "realistic". Who cares about realism, this is a fantasy RPG.

[Wulfram]

The thing is the game tells you it's a fantasy epic.

Let me guess: Your precious Chantry's fallen to pieces, and put the entire world on the brink of war. And you need the one person who could help you put it back together.

And even if the general outcome is accepted to be something which was beyond Hawke's power to change, the way all the specifics work out identically no matter what Hawke does makes it more like Fate than anything realistic.

Modifié par Wulfram, 26 mai 2011 - 11:48 .

[Darker_than_black]

The only act that feels realistic is the first one. In that act our goal is to assemble enough money to fund the expedition. In act 2 however, Hawke has become rich and moved into hightown but he/she still keeps running errands for people that pay few gold coins as thanks.

Sure the questline with the Qunari is motivated by other things than gold (Hawke wouldn't want the Qunari to take over Kirkwall after all) and the companion quests can be motivated by Hawke wanting to help friends. Apart from that Hawke still behaves like an errand boy/girl despite the fact that he/she is actually a noble and that makes no sense.

[fn_outlaw]

Just like in real life, when my mother died, I didn't cry. I just continued with my daily retinue....because I play video games to experience what I can in the real world....

[Giltspur]

Disclaimer: I like Dragon Age II's story.

While I agree that Dragon Age II is more realistic overall than Dragon Age: Origins and that even fantasy has to have an internal reality that's relevant to our reality to be worth anything at all...

I still think there are areas that can be improved in DAII's story.  For example, if you're going to do a framed narrative to learn who the "real" Champion is I think it would have been more satisfying for his conflicts to have been tied to his personal decisions or psyschological characteristics.  Instead his obstacles he must face are mostly just sort of put in his path...just because.

For example, Petrice uses Hawke not because Hawke is gullible enough to listen to Petrice or because he was in some position to trust her or think he could use her in some way but simply because he was poor.  And it wasn't his fault he was poor.  He was a refugee.  Nothing is Hawke's fault.  A main character needs to get kicked in the teeth repeatedly.  And that certainly happens to Hawke.  But more often than not I never felt I (or Hawke) had earned that kick to the teeth.  And so there's less connection to Hawke's struggles than there could have been.

The Arishok is better.  You talk with.  You can believe that your conversations had something to do with the respect he has for you.   (It doesn't matter if there's no "real" choice here.  The point is you can feel involved.)  And that respect is part of what elevates you in Act II.  And overall Act II is great.  I don't have any real complaints about it.  And even though there are some things about Shepherding Wolves (the lack of choice--the feeling that you're being shoved into something you wouldn't actually have done given what the game showed you) that are subpoptimal, it still has a lot of cool stuff in it.

[WhiteKnyght]

Riloux wrote...

Not really. After his family members either die or get pissed and run away from him, why does he stay in Kirkwall? He's rich and Kirkwall is a ****hole. He could go anywhere he wanted. Not very realistic.

Besides, I'm tired of people ****ting on fantasy 'save the world' games. They're fun, and that's why they're popular. Sure, Dragon Age: Origins had kind of a cliche premise, but it wasn't so much about the destination as it was about the journey. The meat of the game, the middle, was plenty original.

Just because you can go somewhere doesn't mean you do.

Hawke has a life in Kirkwall, even after his/her family is gone. he/she has friends, possibly a significant other who doesn't want to leave or cant for their own reasons. And he/she is also half owner of Hubert's mines in The Bone Pit, becoming full owner in Act 3 if the player chooses.

And I don't really see what advantages he/she'd get from moving back to Ferelden. If Hawke is a mage moving back would get him/her forced into the Circle of Magi since the only reason he is allowed to stay free in Act 3 is because of his "community service". Moving back to Ferelden would cost him/her his/her wealthy life because he/she cant take it with him/her running from Templars and Circle Mages aren't allowed to have land/titles/wealth.

Sinophile wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I
greatly appreciate DA2s efforts to break away from the traditional RPG
formula. It really worked for me, in fact. I vastly prefer it to
Origins.

But to my understanding, realism isn't what people are looking for when they pick up a fantasy game.

I believe that the OP is using "realistic" incorrectly, and is really talking about en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verisimilitude
Case in point: How come Phoenix down didn't work on Aeris when Sephiroth put a sword through her?

Also, let us remember the tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AcceptableBreaksFromReality

I can answer that one about the Phoenix Down.

In
the Final Fantasy games if a party members HP drops to 0 they aren't
dead, they are unconscious. Its only game over if all players fall
unconscious which means the enemy would kill them after they are knocked
out. When Sephiroth stabbed Aerith(Aeris is a translation error in the
original version of FF7) with his Masamune it was a death blow, not a
knock out.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 26 mai 2011 - 08:36 .

[OmegaBlue0231]

I like the fact is was more realistic and not the typical save the world thing. I could walk into any gamestop and pick the first game I see and find a story like that.

[marshalleck]

 What's "realistic" about Orsino's decision to go completely bat**** insane and turn into a harvester?

I'm not sussed about typical fantasy tropes like mages casting fireballs and roguess being able to disappear from plain view in the middle of an open sunny plaza. What irked me about DA2 was a lack of realistic motivation for characters' behavior. And yes, I know Kirkwall is basically the city-state version of Event Horizon--a portal to hell and back. I don't buy it. It stinks of ****ty plot mechanic to drive things ever forward. Meredith could have been an interesting character, given reason to be such a fascist hater of mages. But no, it was just the stupid idol making her crazy. And Orsino? Who knows. He just flipped when he had no reason to the game needed another boss fight.

I could go on, especially about the single-minded obsession present in every single named character (especially the companions), but I don't really want to think about it. Ugh. They aren't characters, they're caricatures. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 26 mai 2011 - 08:55 .

[WhiteKnyght]

marshalleck wrote...

 What's "realistic" about Orsino's decision to go completely bat**** insane and turn into a harvester?

I'm not sussed about typical fantasy tropes like mages casting fireballs and roguess being able to disappear from plain view in the middle of an open sunny plaza. What irked me about DA2 was a lack of realistic motivation for characters' behavior. And yes, I know Kirkwall is basically the city-state version of Event Horizon--a portal to hell and back. I don't buy it. It stinks of ****ty plot mechanic to drive things ever forward. Meredith could have been an interesting character, given reason to be such a fascist hater of mages. But no, it was just the stupid idol making her crazy. And Orsino? Who knows. He just flipped when he had no reason to the game needed another boss fight.

I could go on, especially about the single-minded obsession present in every single named character (especially the companions), but I don't really want to think about it. Ugh. They aren't characters, they're caricatures. 

Simple, people aren't always what they seem. That's whats realistic. Orsino spent most of the game trying to pass himself off as a good guy and an honest mage, but it turned out that he was aiding and abeting a dangerous necromancer/serial killer and was perfectly willing to turn to blood magic despite passing himself off as otherwise..

[Icy Magebane]

I don't see anything realistic about Hawke waiting 3 years to sleep with Isabela.

On a more serious note, I disagree with the entire premise of this topic... first, I prefer games where the hero can and will do things to change the world. There's nothing fun about playing a game and just watching a lot of tragedies unfold one after the other, with no real way to intervene, even when you are standing a couple feet away with a damned magical staff in your hands (referring to the idiotic killing of Huon's wife right in front of Hawke while he just stands there waiting for his cue). Secondly, this game just isn't realistic in any way, and this relates to the time jumps. The Qunari just sit around in a human city for 3 years, and the templars, city guards, and random adventurers don't even try to get rid of them... Hawke sits on his butt for 3 years at a time repeatedly, gaining no skills, money, or doing anything at all, yet doesn't become overweight, unskilled, poor... no changes at all.  Also, there are no changes to the relationships in his life.  He just drops off the grid for 3 years and then emerges from his mansion, to reconnect with the people he's supposedly friends with?  Who does that?

And here's another thing... Hawke finds evidence in the lair of his mother's killer that implicates Orsino, and never follows up on it. That's just stupid. Almost everyone who played the game realized that connection right off the bat, and you're telling me the person who supposedly experienced this never figured it out? Right. Then there's the entire All That Remains quest, in which nobody follows up on obvious evidence of a mage serial killer, even when presented with a freaking sack of bones and mutilated organs as proof... I don't see any logic behind the argument that this game is realistic in any way.

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 27 mai 2011 - 12:14 .

[Fast Jimmy]

I don't dislike the plot to DA2. But it has almost zero replayability because the plot is the plot and that's that. I can't complete multiple playthroughs because its all "been there, done that." In Origins, I completed it 7 times, one for each Origins story. I got every ending possible and tried to experiment to see every possible permutation I could think of.

DA2 was okay... but so much of it was the exact same the next time around. The only things new were the sibling (I had Carver the first time, Bethany was much more enjoyable), the combat for a different class and the ending of Mage vs. Templar.

Is it realistic that no matter what you do, it doesn't affect the world around you?

If you don't get Aveline appointed head of the guards, where she does all sorts of "amazing" job of improving safety and preventing corruption, the elves still convert to the Qun after being vigilantes, your mom is still killed by a serial killer that the guard refuses to search for, and Mother Petriece still has the Qunari diplomatic party captured and assassinated. She must have done a knock-down, awesome job of things, while she horribly tries to court her future hubby.

If you do Feynriel's quest, does it matter if he is made Tranquil? If he begins to control his power? If he becomes an Abomination? Even though he controls one of the most powerful devastating magical gifts known in the DA Universe, does he run amok as an Abomination? Does he gain control of his power in the many years he leaves for Tevinter until his friend Hawke is thrown into the mix in the Mage vs. Templar fight? Does he even show up as a Tranquil? No. He's a ghost to the story no matter what way you play it. Super powerful mage, able to manipulate the Fade at will, possibly even do some sort of teleportation (from the way the end sequence of him controlling his power appeared, anyway) and potentially possessed by a powerful Sloth demon. No big deal, I'm sure nothing good/bad/indifferent will happen.

I like DAO because of the epilogue slides. I think everything can be forgiven if you don't just chuck out the window every decision the player made as totally non-valid to the gameplay and story, as long as you circle back and given one slide of non-voiced text. That's all it takes... four sentences for a few interesting side quests. Most things are then forgiven... because it shows choice mattered. In DA2, choice didn't matter in the least, it seems.

[HTTP 404]

Johnny20 wrote...

I wake up every day and it's "realistic". Who cares about realism, this is a fantasy RPG.

yeeep, real life is dramatic as it is.  while I like drama in stories I also like my happy endings (sounds bad)

[kglaser]

I play games to escape real life. When I go to the movies, I don't want to see a cookie-cutter, "slice of life" RomCom, I want to see explosions and car chases and aliens and wizards and things I don't normally see. I don't want to watch 2 hours of "real life" and then walk back out into my real life. Same with games.
YMMV, of course.

[TJPags]

Johnny20 wrote...

I wake up every day and it's "realistic". Who cares about realism, this is a fantasy RPG.

This.

Plus, you know, they didn't call this a life-sim-RPG.  It was a marketed as a fantasy RPG.  So even if realistic was a good thing for a game, it wasn't what they intended.

[Sidney]

It is set in a fantasy world but the world has "real" problems. DAO would have been awful if it had just been the Darkspawn. What made it great was dealing with Loghain and his very real issues around nationalism, power, and legitimate rule.

DA2 takes the same approach. It reminds me greatly of Beneath the Cross by Barbara B. Diefendorf and the secular struggles in Paris in the 16th century. That is greatness to bring that sort of real world oompf to a setting with dragons and other silliness.

[kglaser]

Sidney wrote...

It is set in a fantasy world but the world has "real" problems. DAO would have been awful if it had just been the Darkspawn. What made it great was dealing with Loghain and his very real issues around nationalism, power, and legitimate rule.

DA2 takes the same approach. It reminds me greatly of Beneath the Cross by Barbara B. Diefendorf and the secular struggles in Paris in the 16th century. That is greatness to bring that sort of real world oompf to a setting with dragons and other silliness.

Then allow me to suggest that the first game achieved the perfect balance of real life and "dragons and other silliness", and DA2 was unbalanced towards "real life" in this way.

[Phoenix_Loftian]

Personal input:

1.) The game's premise was a 'rise to power' which never really happened... unless you do the Templar ending and even then...

2.) Both Origins and DAII seemed to be good at making believable characters in a fantasy setting.

3.) The Qunari Act II was personally my favorite throughout the entire game. It felt real to me. And a lot of people really weren't paying attention to Petrice and other fanatics who built up militias to take them down within their 3 year period of staying in Kirkwall.