148 réponses à ce sujet

[lolwut666]

I noticed that, when Thane killed one of Nassana's guards, his pistol made the typical loud bang when he pulled the trigger.

Wouldn't it have made sense for an assassin to carry some kind of silencer device for his guns? Or does that kind of thing no longer exists in the ME universe? Why?

[MrFob]

In that specific case, didn't he use one of the guards pistols?
Don't know about Silencers in general. might be difficult as the bullets travel at near relativistic speeds. As a game mechanic it makes no sense because there no stealth gameplay so I guess the devs never bothered.

[TomY90]

I can imagine it would be hard with the bullets they use considering there not really bullets in the sense and they are in general inefficient due to them reducing the speed of the gun which they tend to have a reduced range than without.

I imagine as well the weapons give off too much heat when firing for a silencer to work because the weapon has to vent which a silencer would make the heat sinks have to absorb more heat than without.

**EDIT**
Thats saying though silencers might be in ME3 but that is guess work

Modifié par TomY90, 26 mai 2011 - 07:58 .

[Bogsnot1]

Silencers are for amatuers.

The rifle is the first weapon you learn how to use, because it lets you keep your distance from the client. The closer you get to being a pro, the closer you can get to the client. The knife, for example, is the last thing you learn.

Leon (Jean Reno), The Professional.

[MrFob]

Wait a second, I don't really know how it works but the way I think of it is this (please correct me if I'm wrong because I may be terribly wrong here):
In modern day firearms the silencer basically buffers the velocity of the gas exiting the barrel after the explosion of the rear part of the bullet and thereby suppresses mussel flash and sound ( to a degree), right? However, in ME weapons, bullets are no longer accelerated by a directed explosion but rather by mass accelerators. So what actually creates the sound and mussel flash of the gun? Is it the high velocity displacement and friction of air in the barrel? If so, a suppressor at the end of the barrel should still work, though it might be designed a bit differently. If the noise/flash have another cause, it might not even be possible to silence them.
And here is another question: Isn't the Locust kind of silenced?

[Bogsnot1]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

Silencers would be useless with the weapons, because if we were talking real physics, the sheer velocity the projectiles travel with would leave a trail of vaporized air (or better said the water particles in the air) in its wake, giving away the position even if there was no sound.

Why this effect isn't used in ME is beyond my understanding, but there we go (would actually be a lot better and realistic than those tracer bullets!).

You may well have just answered the question in the topic "Why can we see the bullets?" thread that was posted the other day.

[Ship.wreck_]

Why haven't there been any supressors in ME?

That's a brilliant question! And while I'm pretty sure the previous poster was right - Thane was using a gaurd's pistol, I commend you for being the first that I've seen to bring up the broader subject!

Frankly it doesn't make any sense that there haven't been so far. Obviously the use of stealth will ALWAYS give a combatant an edge in combat. It's such a basic fundemental concept and element of combat that we can easily tell that it will always be a factor. Stealth has been employed to amazing effect since ancient times, all the the way through the present, and without question, will continue to do so well into the future.

Because the weapons in ME use mass accelerators to propel their projectiles the traditional "silencers" we think of may not be the best means of silencing the ME weapons.

But then again, since the projectile is being accelerated to massively greater velocities (supposedly), that should make a massive pressure wave in the air ahead of it, and the function of contemporary supressors is to absorb and disperse similar pressure waves. So on second thought, that would be necessary to supress the ME weapons.

But I'm getting side tracked. The question isn't, "How would they supress mass accellerator weapons?" The question is, "Why haven't we been able to use, or even see supressed mass accellerator weapons?"

The answer is probably that it would require a lot more work on the part of the game makers. In order for supressed weapons to be usefull they would need to develop a better AI. Thusfar the AI is fairly simple, you attack the enemy, they all know where you are, they all attack you continuously until they are all destroyed. A more advanced AI would have to be developed to make stealth possible. One where each unit was assigned a certain level of perception visually and audibly. Then when you attack, with or without a supressed weapon the computer determines based on the audible sound at the location of any other enemy and your position/cover relative to any specific enemy's field of view / perception levels, wether or not a given enemy has detected you.

I'm no game maker myself, but I think it's clear to see that it's a lot harder to make an enemy AI that can "notice" you, or not on an idividual basis, and determine your exact location or not, on an idividual basis than it is to make an enemy AI where your prescence is detected and zero'd to all enemies automatically as soon as you attack, or wander into plain view.

Anyway, it's kind of sad that they haven't put the effort into developing the AI to a point where stealth was possible as an in game tactic, and not just a cutscene for Thane. If it were included it would make for a deeper, more immersive, more adaptive, more pretty much everything good combat system. I doubt very much they'll go through the effort for ME3, and it's probably never even been brought to their attention anyway. I've been on these forums for a while now, and I've never seen it brought up (kinda makes me wanna slap myself). But... *sigh* a fan can dream... a fan can dream...

[CaptainZaysh]

It would have been great if you could have rocked a silenced pistol into a couple of specific missions. Arrival and Kasumi's loyalty mission spring to mind.

[Ship.wreck_]

It would be great if you could rock a supressed pistol/shotgun/assaultweapon/sniper into ANY mission at ANY time as per YOUR discression. And if the missions took place in open map environments that would allow for the use of supressors to any meaningful effect.

With the point to point near run-and-guns of ME2 a supressor wouldn't be usefull. The whole point is to conceal your firing position. If you're on a narrow point to point serpentine path (which you are in ME2 always, and ME often) then there's no hope of concealing your position by any means ever. You're either shooting us, in which case you're a few feet that way towards the begining of the level. Or you're not shooting us yet, in which case you're further toward the begining of the level.

[lolwut666]

I agree with you completely, Ship.wreck. I'm a big fan of stealth myself, and I really wish BioWare incorporated it into the gameplay.

[Ship.wreck_]

TomY90 wrote...

I can imagine it would be hard with the bullets they use considering there not really bullets in the sense and they are in general inefficient due to them reducing the speed of the gun which they tend to have a reduced range than without.

I imagine as well the weapons give off too much heat when firing for a silencer to work because the weapon has to vent which a silencer would make the heat sinks have to absorb more heat than without.

**EDIT**
Thats saying though silencers might be in ME3 but that is guess work

I don't know if this is being translated from a different language or something(???). But the grammer seems so horrible the whole thing has lost any interpretable meaning.

The bullets aren't bullets? Bullets are just objects that are projected through space (projectiles) from what I understand the weapons in ME do launch physical projectiles. So yeah, same thing. Just different speeds and sizes.

Reducing the speed of the gun? Are you talking about the velocity of the projectiles, or the rate of fire? Reduced range: oh ok, I guess you were talking about the velocity of the projectiles. Ummm... what is slowing them down though? Are you saying that contemporary chemically propelled projectiles travel at lower velocities and thus achieve shorter ranges than ME mass accellerated projectiles? If that's the case, in a theoretical sense: You are correct. But if you actually play ME or 2 you'll find that you never really shoot at anyone any further away than most video games. In fact the vast majority of the fights in these games are at relatively close quarters, and on the rare occassions in ME where you did run into hostiles on an open world map (planet exploring) they don't actually load up until WELL within the range of even contemporary firearms. That's unfortunate because one of the greatest theoretical advantages of ME weapons would be massively greater ranges, that should have been built into the gameplay.

Or are you saying that the use of suppressors reduces the velocity/range of projectiles? Actually by forcing the expanding gas leaving the barrel of a contemporary weapon to expand slowly within the closed environment of the supressor rather than instantaneously into the atmoshpere; supressors actually increase the operating pressures within the weapon, which I know increases the rate of fire, and I'm pretty sure would also increase the velocity of the projectile. The effect on range is probably negligible. I'm pretty sure the recuring "supressors reduce range" theme we see in video games started out as some made up video game bs they pulled to "balance the gameplay".

A concept I find fundementally stupid. All attachments / weapons have advantages/disadvantages in the real world, if you just portray the performance of such things ACCURATELY in your video game, all the same advantages and disadvantages will exist in your game. And since with these ad/disadvantages in real life all these things still have a use and a purpose, you will see the same in your game. You don't need to make up hollywoodesque baseless bullcrap to "balance things out", that just pisses me off and renders a lot of things useless. IE supressors and hit markers. Supressors sole purpose in existing is to conceal your firing position, if the target see's hit markers indicating your EXACT direction when you hit them, kind f*cking defeats the purpose doesn't it!!!? But I digress...

I actually got that last part. But no, supressors don't effect weapon cooling adversly. They can be easily damaged by overheating (highly significant if heat management were brought back in ME3!!! ) but they don't cause the weapon to get hotter.

Anyway, the first paragraph seemed to be worded very poorly and I'm not sure than anything I've said even addressed it because the meaning was so ambiguous. I'm not trying to pick on you, just letting you know I didn't get it. Please rephrase...

MrFob wrote...

In that specific case, didn't he use one of the guards pistols?
Don't know about Silencers in general. might be difficult as the bullets travel at near relativistic speeds. As a game mechanic it makes no sense because there no stealth gameplay so I guess the devs never bothered.

I'm sorry, I'm not hip to the lingo. Does that mean near the speed of light? I'm going to assume so from here, thank you

MrFob wrote...

Wait a second, I don't really know how it works but the way I think of it is this (please correct me if I'm wrong because I may be terribly wrong here):
In modern day firearms the silencer basically buffers the velocity of the gas exiting the barrel after the explosion of the rear part of the bullet and thereby suppresses mussel flash and sound ( to a degree), right? However, in ME weapons, bullets are no longer accelerated by a directed explosion but rather by mass accelerators. So what actually creates the sound and mussel flash of the gun? Is it the high velocity displacement and friction of air in the barrel? If so, a suppressor at the end of the barrel should still work, though it might be designed a bit differently. If the noise/flash have another cause, it might not even be possible to silence them.
And here is another question: Isn't the Locust kind of silenced?

You are correct in your understanding of the function of suprressors! For practical intents and purposes anyway, I'm no physicist myself. I would assume the sound is caused by the pressure wave in front of the projectile, which if it's going near the speed of light would be significant to say the LEAST. I agree that some version of the same suppressor concept we have today should go a long ways towards supressing mass accelerator weapons as well! However alot of the sound may also be internal workings of the weapon itself. The massive surge of energy needed to power the mass accellerator I would imagine would also make a lot of noise even if the energy was electrical in nature. Whatever the cause of the sound / flash it will always be possible to engineer new technology to supress it. If it has a different cause, it needs a different solution, that's all. Was the Locust one of the machine pistols? If so I haven't used it because my Shepard is a soldier and for some reason soldiers (even though the whole point of the soldier class was that it can use ALL weapons) are somehow not allowed to use that class of weapon, only pistols. WTF?????!!!???!!!????

EDIT:

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

Silencers would be useless with the weapons, because if we were talking real physics, the sheer velocity the projectiles travel with would leave a trail of vaporized air (or better said the water particles in the air) in its wake, giving away the position even if there was no sound.

Why this effect isn't used in ME is beyond my understanding, but there we go (would actually be a lot better and realistic than those tracer bullets!).

I believe you're talking about CONDENSED water. Water exists in a vaporized form in the air at all times and is not vissible, but when a jet flies by at high speed we can see that water vapor being forced to condense from the sheer pressure and form visible water droplets.

This is the case with contemporary firearms, snipers can use the thin wispy trail to trace the projectile to it's splash. But it's hardly and effective means of pinpointing sniper locations.

Furthermore: These things are supposed to be moving near the speed of light! If we were talking real physics these projectiles would blaze across the sky in plumes of smoke and fire like asteroids entering the atmoshpere, would impact with an energy release measured in megatons, and the recoil would be destructive in its own right. But clearly we're not talking real physics here so supressors are a go, if the game makers are willing to put forth the effort to make the enhanced AI and open environments that would make supressors useful.

lolwut666 wrote...

I agree with you completely, Ship.wreck. I'm a big fan of stealth myself, and I really wish BioWare incorporated it into the gameplay.

Thank you!

I love stealth too! But even more than stealth I love open ended gameplay that gives YOU the power to decide how to pursue your ends. Stealth is just one more option that would give us that much more power of decision. That's why I love open world, so we get to recon our enemy and decide the best way to approach/attack! I love controllable squad members, so we can use them to form distractions/diversions, cover ground assults from afar, flank etc etc. I love it all!

For me the perfect ME, or any game for that matter, would be one where you have full controll of your squad mates, can post them anywhere on the map, have them operate vehicles, do anything you need and have a good enough AI that you can actually rely on them doing these things effectively. The ability to choose to attempt negotiation, use stealth, distract and flank, fish in a barrel, or downright shock and awe tactics for any mission or enemy! I would love to put Garrus on a mountain top with a sniper riffle above an enemy group, Tali in a Mako on a mountain top in the opposite direction from the enemy (since she's a techy), and bring Wrex himself with me (since he's uber effective at close quarter with his Krogan bulk/resiliance, shotgun mastery and biotic powers), to try to negotiate the surrender of the enemy. Then if that doesn't work, tell Garrus and Mako to fire at will then while all enemys are trying to dogde sniper and 105mm/ MG rounds, take out the priority target and egress through the sheer chaos unscathed! God I love tactics!!!

Also the highly imobilizing cover system has got to go! Or at least have an option to turn it off. Rather than getting stuck to a cover object then going through the long winded, overly dramaticised, sweeping motions of leaning out bringing up the weapon and firing, I simply prefer to STAND BEHIND THE COVER. Because the character retains their shooting stance this way providing fire becomes a simple matter of rapidly partially side stepping out, firing and steping back in, or using corner cutting techniques. I've never played any game with any cover system, where the cover system actually worked better than just using cover manually! Instead of making up a cover system for those who don't know any better, they should just put a short tutorial on how to use cover effectively. Manual cover would massively improve the flow of the game and mobility in combat!

Also I don't know why this doesn't already exist. But I would love to see the ability to call in orbital bombardments from the Normandy! I also really hated how I couldn't change the appearance of my armor, or my weapons once I was on a planet in ME2, but having an entire armory at your disposal at any time in ME didn't make any sense. So it would also be cool and make sense, if you could call in Orbital Resuplys from the Normandy too! Say you're wearing desert camo but you're on an ice planet, and you have an AR but you want a battle riffle: simply access a menu adjust your gear, and instead of it magically changing on the spot some sort of resuply pod comes in like an asteroid from the Normandy in orbit. It splashes down, you make your way to it, and get what you asked for. Also you'd have to be careful where you designate co-ordinates for the drop so you don't wind up delivering it to your enemies haha!

Modifié par Ship.wreck , 26 mai 2011 - 10:44 .

[Ship.wreck_]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

In ME1 you could at least sometimes just mako atop a mountain, grab your SR and start picking off unlucky dudes. If you were a good enough shoot, you could fire from a position far enough away that not even a single projectile fired from dozens of dudes hit you.

That mission with the nuclear bomb comes to mind, being on that cliff, shooting ya dudes

Don't recall that nuke mission, but I loved doing that kinda thing anytime I was lucky enough to find some enemies outside (kinda rare). I like putting three snipers at different points along a ridge. When one badguy shoots at me, I just duck down, and my guys pick him off. If he shoots at my guys... well they're not really smart enough to take cover, BUT I pick that guy off pretty quickly before he can do any damage! It's like whack a mole, except the moles have big guns and shoot you in your face! < Will probably be the coolest thing I've ever said. I want it on my grave stone!

Also I like putting a sniper on a hill top or ridge and having him distract the enemy while I approach on foot and flank them. Although that's incredibly time consuming because I have to do all the movement on foot because if I get in the Mako everyone else follows.  Wish I could tell them individually to get in the mako, and even operate it. Or at least that when I tell them stay, they stay even if I get in the Mako afterwards...

[CaptainZaysh]

The ability to call in ortillery would be awesome, but would change the gameplay quite a lot. Basically every outdoors mission would be Shep clearing away each enemy position with an airstrike!

[Ship.wreck_]

Just because bombardment is available doesn't make it the primary means of fighting. For example there could be limitations to the ammount or type of bombardments. Enemies will have bunkers to take shelter in. It's a lesson we've learned a million times, there's only so much that can be done from the air. Sooner or later, someone HAS to go in on foot, and there WILL be a fight when they do. Air strikes are just a means of "softening" the enemy before a ground assault. And again, its just one more option available to the PLAYER. Which is whom games are really supposed to be all about.

Also even if the game could be won by simply bombarding everything, no one would actually play that way EVERY TIME. And if some one did just bombard there way through everything (which shouldn't even be possible), and as a result didn't enjoy the game. It's their own damn fault for CHOOSING of their own free will NOT to mix things up a little... ever.

[008Zulu]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

The ability to call in ortillery would be awesome, but would change the gameplay quite a lot. Basically every outdoors mission would be Shep clearing away each enemy position with an airstrike!

Maybe limit one strike per mission? The Normandy is a stealth ship, but my guess is weapons fire generates more heat than the sinks can handle.

Infiltrators can do the whole stealth thing, even in Arrival. I got the achievable by stealthing my way past the guards even though it says you can't. Reckon its a bug, but meh.

But Mass Effect isn't a stealth type game. Given that you are (almost) always saddled with 2 AI team members who are 10th generation dumb as rocks. The idea of succesfully being a stealther is not doable.

[Madman123456]

Any silencer will screw with the trajectory of the projectile, makes it harder to shoot straight at targets further away. And that happens with real bullets where you can have a silencer device tailormade for this exact size of bullets.

The targeting computer of the mass effect gun shears of a piece of metal that's heavy enough to reach the target but not so heavy that it will punch right through it.Says the Codex, i wish i could modify the weapons so they use bigger pieces, i figure it would do quite a lot of damage if a shot punches through a head.
But whatever, the projectiles are different with every shot, making the silencer device either terribly ineffective or obstructing the flow of escaping gas too much so the "bullet" will be hindered and not hit the target at all.
The obstruction of escaping gas wouldn't be so bad with the mass effect guns, but the projectiles will have to push some air aside and if that gets caught up in swirls in the silencer, the gun wont shoot all that straight.
The sound of the bullet wont give your Location away, the sound of your shepard cursing at the gun will

[Someone With Mass]

I think suppressors would only work for the Infiltrator.

Seems pretty redundant for the other classes.

[Someone With Mass]

Anderson used silencers in Mass Effect: Revelation, where they seemed to work as the typical movie suppressors that only gives away a puff when fired. The projectile is still breaking the sound barrier when exiting the barrel, and I don't think there's a way to hide that.

[CaptainZaysh]

Ship.wreck wrote...

Just because bombardment is available doesn't make it the primary means of fighting. For example there could be limitations to the ammount or type of bombardments. Enemies will have bunkers to take shelter in. It's a lesson we've learned a million times, there's only so much that can be done from the air. Sooner or later, someone HAS to go in on foot, and there WILL be a fight when they do. Air strikes are just a means of "softening" the enemy before a ground assault. And again, its just one more option available to the PLAYER. Which is whom games are really supposed to be all about.

Also even if the game could be won by simply bombarding everything, no one would actually play that way EVERY TIME. And if some one did just bombard there way through everything (which shouldn't even be possible), and as a result didn't enjoy the game. It's their own damn fault for CHOOSING of their own free will NOT to mix things up a little... ever.

Nah, it would be bad game design to put in an "I Win" button and then scold the player for using it.

Options for limiting airstrikes could be:
- "jammer" type enemies who need to be taken out before airstrikes can be called in
- presence of civilians
- setting more of the game indoors
- Normandy unable to reveal orbital position due to enemy ships (which raises the question of why isn't Shepard being airstriked)

It could all be done, but I think you'd be looking at a game that is much less space opera and much more hardcore military sim than ME was intended to be.

[CaptainZaysh]

008Zulu wrote...

But Mass Effect isn't a stealth type game. Given that you are (almost) always saddled with 2 AI team members who are 10th generation dumb as rocks. The idea of succesfully being a stealther is not doable.

Yeah, that's why I think realistically silenced weapons could only be implemented in very limited sequences (Arrival/the party scene in Kasumi's gig).

Here's another idea. The weapons could all start each mission in a silenced mode. They do slightly less damage, but if you wipe out the whole first group of enemies without them getting a shot off, your reward is that the next group is not in an "alert state" when you first set eyes on them.

Once an enemy opens fire, combat reverts to normal for the rest of the mission. This could be indicated by an order from Shepard to "Go loud!" since the stealth part of the mission is now blown.