148 réponses à ce sujet

[Someone With Mass]

Ship.wreck wrote...
A very poor defense sir. It's friggin retarded that engineers are only allowed to use smg. It's always been retarded that they're only allowed to use SMG. If in ME3 they're still only allowed to use SMG, then ME3 is going to be retarded. Having skill as an engineer does not logically preclude someone from being able to use any damn weapon they want. Yet I'm supposed to believe that because engineers are engineers, somhow this makes them magically physically incapable of operating an AR?

That's just dumb.

It should go without saying that engineers should be able to use any damn weapon they please. With or withour supressors. Ideally with.

First off: Every class can use every weapon there is in ME3, so quit your ****ing.

Second off: Engineers are meant to use their powers as their primary weapon, with the firearms as backup. Why do you think they're not getting any weapon damage from their passive class power, while their other powers are?

[Ship.wreck_]

Someone With Mass wrote...

First off: Every class can use every weapon there is in ME3, so quit your ****ing.

THEN WHAT THE F*CK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT use your SMG?

Second off: Engineers are meant to use their powers as their primary weapon, with the firearms as backup. Why do you think they're not getting any weapon damage from their passive class power, while their other powers are?

Secondly: engineers are "meant" to use whatever the f*ck they want to when they play their damn game. Why do you think they HAVE GUNS?

[Someone With Mass]

Ship.wreck wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...
Second off: Engineers are meant to use their powers as their primary weapon, with the firearms as backup. Why do you think they're not getting any weapon damage from their passive class power, while their other powers are?

Secondly: engineers are "meant" to use whatever the f*ck they want to when they play their damn game. Why do you think they HAVE GUNS?

Herp a derp.

[Ship.wreck_]

Very witty.

[lolwut666]

Ideally, this is how an engineer should work, in my mind:

1) Tell your squaddies to take concealed positions while also concealing yourself.

2) Before the opponents become aware of your presence, jam their shields and weapons.

3) Once they are confused and defenseless, your squaddies finish them.

If there are any mechs nearby, you could hack them to help you. The point is that the engineer should focus on sabotage rather than straight-up combat. It could be a very deep, tactical class this way.

As for the silencers, they'd be useful so you could take some potshots without revealing your position.

[Someone With Mass]

Yeah, but AI hacking only lasts for twelve seconds at most, and if the mechs have protections, that plan goes down the toilet.

And Overload tends to draw attention. Mostly because the enemies usually aren't bunched up together, and they guard each other's flanks.

[Ship.wreck_]

The AI's aren't even designed to deal with stealth at all. We have no idea what would or would not draw attention if they were.

[jamesp81]

lolwut666 wrote...

@amesp81

That's assuming present-day silencers are used in the ME universe, which I doubt would be the case.

Stealth is very important in combat. It's perfectly plausible to imagine that the armed forces from ME would spend quite a bit of time and resources in developing stealth technology, including devices to silence guns.

They probably wouldn't be used as modern silencers rely on manipulation of propellant gases, among other things, to achieve the desired effect.

However, the problem of supersonic projectiles remains.  A solid object moving at greater than 1100 feet per second or so (depending on local atmospheric pressure) is going to create a sonic boom....period, the end.  It just seems to me that, even in ME, there's precious damned little you can do about that.  The sound of the gun itself might be suppressed with an appropriate device, but once the projectile is out of the barrel, you don't have any control over it.

I suppose you could reduce the gun's power to fire subsonic projectiles but I have a hard time believing subsonic bullets could defeat even a crude kinetic barrier.  Hell, subsonic projectiles have a hard time defeating Level IIIA kevlar body armor, and that's a defensive measure available right now.  I can only imagine a kinetic barrier would laugh at subsonic rounds.

[jamesp81]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Right now our troops in Afghan are using "sniper detectors" that pinpoint a shooter's location by analysing the acoustic properties of the shot. So by 2283 reducing the noise of the weapon might be completely pointless anyway, since a standard combat hardsuit would detect other evidence of the bullet flightpath (like atmospheric disturbance) and tag the location of the shooter with a bright red blip on your HUD.

And let's face it, if your hardsuit can do that it could probably automatically fire a micromissile out of the Y-rack launcher on the backplate, saving you the trouble of actually returning fire yourself.

The trouble is that, if you go all the way along the path of realism you end up with a very different game. Shepard would remote pilot mechs through the ground missions rather than actually carry a rifle into a firefight. I think that could be a fascinating game but it would be very very different and I'm not sure it would have "Mass" appeal.

Backtracing the path of a round with radar is already used by artillery crews to lay in accurate counter battery fire against enemy artillery units.  It's not a stretch at all to think that a combat hard suit in 2283 would have minituarized this technology enough to make it useful for backtracing small arms fire.  Assuming ECM and jammers aren't in full effect that's screwing with your hard suit's computers, but that's another issue altogether.

[jamesp81]

Ship.wreck wrote...

lolwut666 wrote...

@amesp81

That's assuming present-day silencers are used in the ME universe, which I doubt would be the case.

Stealth is very important in combat. It's perfectly plausible to imagine that the armed forces from ME would develop quite a bit of time and resources in developing stealth technology, including devices to silence guns.

EXACTLY. WHAT THIS GUY SAID. WHAT I SAID A LONG TIME AGO. Stealth has always been and will always be a HUGE advantage. The concept isn't going to be abandoned because something new needs to be invented.

Someone With Mass wrote...

lolwut666 wrote...

It think it could be useful for all classes. You don't need Cloak to be stealthy.

I think "squishy" classes like the Adept and the Engineer could benefit a lot from it.

I was referring to the infiltrator, seeing how that class is using a sniper rifle.

And Adept is using biotics, so why would that class need suppressors?

Engineer is far from stealthy too.

Again, what lolwut said. All classes use at least A gun of some kind. That's how that class and EVERY class could need a supressor.

Engineer is as far from stealthy as a player CHOOSES to make it. Likewise with supressors and a little brain power it can also be as stealthy as a player chooses to make it.

I'm not trying to be combative, but there's no solution, even with ME level tech, I can see to providing worthwhile suppression for a firearm.  It's of limited utility even today when it can be done pretty easily.  Handguns can usually be silenced pretty effectively, but handguns have pathetic stopping power compared even to rifles that fire low end, low-ish power rounds like the M16, chambered to fire 5.56x45 ammunition (this is why 9mm submachine guns have been largely replaced with short barreled rifles like the M4 carbine).  But I digress.

What solution would you propose to making a supersonic projectile not make a sonic boom?

[Golden Owl]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

In ME1 you could at least sometimes just mako atop a mountain, grab your SR and start picking off unlucky dudes. If you were a good enough shoot, you could fire from a position far enough away that not even a single projectile fired from dozens of dudes hit you.

That mission with the nuclear bomb comes to mind, being on that cliff, shooting ya dudes

I LOVED that in ME....on second play through's with Sniper maxed out and Specter's Sniper Rifle on hand...I was out of the Mako at every opportunity, playing with range...how far could I be from targets and still get head shots and down the barrels of the turrets....the telescopic lens was perfect....most weapons didn't have the reach to hit back, was cool.......I play the same game in a new way with the Widow in ME2...the distance is rarely there to play with in ME2...so instead I run games in which I can only do head shots and has to be between the eyes...if I mess one up, I reload...a fun challenge.

[lolwut666]

Unless they develop a technology that makes those detectors redundant.

That's cause and effect for you.

[Golden Owl]

Am not concerned about the realistic mechanics issues....ME is not real...silencers would be awesome.....I am hoping silencers are one of the extras we can outfit our weapons with in ME3.

Modifié par Golden Owl, 26 mai 2011 - 02:39 .

[Ship.wreck_]

jamesp81 wrote...
I'm not trying to be combative, but there's no solution, even with ME level tech, I can see to providing worthwhile suppression for a firearm.  It's of limited utility even today when it can be done pretty easily.  Handguns can usually be silenced pretty effectively, but handguns have pathetic stopping power compared even to rifles that fire low end, low-ish power rounds like the M16, chambered to fire 5.56x45 ammunition (this is why 9mm submachine guns have been largely replaced with short barreled rifles like the M4 carbine).  But I digress.

What solution would you propose to making a supersonic projectile not make a sonic boom?

As I mentioned before that sonic crack doesn't matter nearly as much as people like to make it out to. The point of a supressor is to conceal your firing position the sonic crack of the bullet does not reveal your firing position. So it doesn't matter. Sub or super-sonic you're NEVER going to make the bullet silent, and whether it hits or misses it's ALWAYS going to be noticed by whomever you're shooting it at. The only difference between sub and super-sonic is whether someone the bullet passes by hears a *crack!* or a *wwwhiiiizzzzzz!*
Either way they're going to hear it so its not going to make any f-ing difference.

Also subsonic rounds could easily be used effectively. It's the future, they can invent anything they need. We already know there's disruptor rounds designed to electromagneticly disrupt shielding without necessarily relying on super high velocities. EMP could be used to dissable shielding en mass. There's a million different solutions they could come up with to make sub sonic work, not that sub sonic is AT ALL necessary in the first place. Contrary to your assessment the only thing sub-sonic can't resonably defeat is armor. Technologicaly generated sheilds can be dealt with using conteractive technology. The low tech physical armor can only be defeated physically by the sheer force of the bullet, which is reduced sooo... while other means can be employed to help sub sonic rounds defeat shielding, I guess sub sonic rounds just won't be affective against armored targets. Again NOT that those sub sonic rounds are necessary for stealth anyway. They only slightly enhance stealth in that the sub sonic *whiz* can't be heard from as far away as the super sonic *crack* but again, neither necessarily reveals your position. Also sub-sonic rounds could be used to assassinate non-combatant targets, not everyone in ME wears a hardsuit, as painfully demonstrated by ME2

True there should be technology to locate enemy positions by analyzing disturbances in the air from shots fired. But there should also be combat drones, both arial and on land. Pin point precise orbital strikes. Simple EMP devices that would disable everyone's sheilding weapons huds etc. There's a million different technologies we know of now that SHOULD exist in ME in some enhanced form, and a million more we haven't even thought of. So there should be a way to track those shots, and then there should be a way to counter that technology to make the shots hard to track, and then there should be a way to counter that technology... etc. etc. etc.

If we keep making up things to one up the possibility of stealth, stealth is still never going to become impossible, and we'll just be adding a myriad of unnecessary crap. Having stealth as an option available to the player would make the game a lot more interesting and open up a lot more possibilities for the combat. There's no reason not to do it.

[Northern Sun]

Silencers were featured in Mass Effect: Revelation(the first novel). Though only briefly and it didn't go into any details on how they worked.

[LuxDragon]

^ What Northern Sun said. Anderson used a silenced pistol.

Personally, I'd rather see it as part of the new weapon mod system in ME 3. It silences gunshots and enemies percieve you less of a threat over your teammates or something.

[jamesp81]

Ship.wreck wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...
I'm not trying to be combative, but there's no solution, even with ME level tech, I can see to providing worthwhile suppression for a firearm.  It's of limited utility even today when it can be done pretty easily.  Handguns can usually be silenced pretty effectively, but handguns have pathetic stopping power compared even to rifles that fire low end, low-ish power rounds like the M16, chambered to fire 5.56x45 ammunition (this is why 9mm submachine guns have been largely replaced with short barreled rifles like the M4 carbine).  But I digress.

What solution would you propose to making a supersonic projectile not make a sonic boom?

As I mentioned before that sonic crack doesn't matter nearly as much as people like to make it out to. The point of a supressor is to conceal your firing position the sonic crack of the bullet does not reveal your firing position. So it doesn't matter. Sub or super-sonic you're NEVER going to make the bullet silent, and whether it hits or misses it's ALWAYS going to be noticed by whomever you're shooting it at. The only difference between sub and super-sonic is whether someone the bullet passes by hears a *crack!* or a *wwwhiiiizzzzzz!*
Either way they're going to hear it so its not going to make any f-ing difference.

Also subsonic rounds could easily be used effectively. It's the future, they can invent anything they need. We already know there's disruptor rounds designed to electromagneticly disrupt shielding without necessarily relying on super high velocities. EMP could be used to dissable shielding en mass. There's a million different solutions they could come up with to make sub sonic work, not that sub sonic is AT ALL necessary in the first place. Contrary to your assessment the only thing sub-sonic can't resonably defeat is armor. Technologicaly generated sheilds can be dealt with using conteractive technology. The low tech physical armor can only be defeated physically by the sheer force of the bullet, which is reduced sooo... while other means can be employed to help sub sonic rounds defeat shielding, I guess sub sonic rounds just won't be affective against armored targets. Again NOT that those sub sonic rounds are necessary for stealth anyway. They only slightly enhance stealth in that the sub sonic *whiz* can't be heard from as far away as the super sonic *crack* but again, neither necessarily reveals your position. Also sub-sonic rounds could be used to assassinate non-combatant targets, not everyone in ME wears a hardsuit, as painfully demonstrated by ME2

True there should be technology to locate enemy positions by analyzing disturbances in the air from shots fired. But there should also be combat drones, both arial and on land. Pin point precise orbital strikes. Simple EMP devices that would disable everyone's sheilding weapons huds etc. There's a million different technologies we know of now that SHOULD exist in ME in some enhanced form, and a million more we haven't even thought of. So there should be a way to track those shots, and then there should be a way to counter that technology to make the shots hard to track, and then there should be a way to counter that technology... etc. etc. etc.

If we keep making up things to one up the possibility of stealth, stealth is still never going to become impossible, and we'll just be adding a myriad of unnecessary crap. Having stealth as an option available to the player would make the game a lot more interesting and open up a lot more possibilities for the combat. There's no reason not to do it.

Conventional methods of sound suppression are fine if your only goal is to conceal your firing position.  In reference to the OP, however, I was under the impression that the OP was looking for levels of suppression that would allow an assassin to shoot someone without the guys in the next room even knowing something happened.  That can be done under optimal conditions with subsonic ammunition in a smaller caliber handgun, such as a 9mm, 32 ACP, or even 22 long rifle.  That level of suppression cannot be achieved if you're using supersonic ammo.  I suppose disruptor rounds as used in ME2 could compensate for a subsonic round's lack of striking power against shielding.  As for using EMP attacks, this is essentially what Overload is in ME1 and ME2.  Both powers are rather noisy, moreso in ME1.  In ME2, there is still some snap crackle pop action of an overloading shield generator, but I suppose it's not terribly noisy either.

Now, as for using stealth in the game, by all means.  Just call it space magic if you have to.  The real challenges there will be programming the AI to deal with it appropriately, both for enemies and allies.  Conducting a successful stealth infiltration could prove to be difficult with allies in tow.  It'd be nice if they eliminated that maximum distance thing in ME2 where they'd drop their current orders and start following you after a certain distance.

[jamesp81]

I just remembered something.

The Locust you get in Kasumi's mission is silenced. This is mentioned in the weapon's description. It's certainly not as noisy as other weapons, but certainly isn't "assassin" silent either.

[Ship.wreck_]

jamesp81 wrote...
Now, as for using stealth in the game, by all means.  Just call it space magic if you have to.  The real challenges there will be programming the AI to deal with it appropriately, both for enemies and allies.  Conducting a successful stealth infiltration could prove to be difficult with allies in tow.  It'd be nice if they eliminated that maximum distance thing in ME2 where they'd drop their current orders and start following you after a certain distance.

That. Is what. I've been saying.

thurmanator692 wrote...

I don't think a suppressor would work the same way that it does in real live. A suppressor absorbs light and sound from the explosion of the bullet, correct? bullets arent propelled by explosions in the ME universe

Not really the point. Yes these weapons operate very differently than our contemporary firearms, but there's got to be some way to supress them, and surely the various military forces of ME have figured that out. So it would be nice if we got the option to use whatever version of a supressor exists in the ME universe, in ME3.

On a somewhat related side note, I saw a Navy lab testing version of a rail gun today on NatGeo! It was so mind blowly awesome I almost peed! It launches a narrow cone shaped projectile at speeds in excess of Mach 7!!! I don't know why but appearently the air behind it super heats as it moves down the "barrel" so much that when it comes out the end there's a substantial FIREBALL! Not anything near what you would see from a checmically propelled projectile of a similar size, but it's there none the less! You'd think that since there's a vacuum (low pressure) behind the thing as it moves forward that air would cool rapidly, and the high pressure air in front of it would be the one getting super heated. But apparently is the air behind instead. Anyway, then after it launches it leaves a smokey vaporish trail behind it for a hundred feet or so, kinda off and on. It was the coolest thing I've ever seen!!!!

[TexasToast712]

Kids think silencers are cool which i dont agree with as anything that reduces the stopping power of my firearm is not cool. Real men dont need silencers to get a edge. Besides, the technology in ME makes it impossible to have silenced firearms as the above posters said.

[Golden Owl]

TexasToast712 wrote...

Kids think silencers are cool which i dont agree with as anything that reduces the stopping power of my firearm is not cool. Real men dont need silencers to get a edge. Besides, the technology in ME makes it impossible to have silenced firearms as the above posters said.

That all depends on what kind of game play you like....personally I would be happy to loose a little weapon stopping power for a silencer....having the ability to make my Infiltrators positions much harder to detect....And 'no' I am not a child.

[lolwut666]

TexasToast712 wrote...

Kids think silencers are cool which i dont agree with as anything that reduces the stopping power of my firearm is not cool. Real men dont need silencers to get a edge. Besides, the technology in ME makes it impossible to have silenced firearms as the above posters said.

Spoken like a true meathead.

[CaptainZaysh]

@Ship: y'know, I'm not absolutely sure you can always hear bullets as they pass you. I've had live rounds pass within a few metres of me and I don't think I heard any whizz or crack.

I might be wrong, it was years ago.

[CaptainZaysh]

(During training, I mean. Just realised how much of a badass that made me sound without mentioning that nobody was trying to kill me.)