112 réponses à ce sujet

[Jorina Leto]

Why a DLC? A simple Option to switch between the systems would be enough to make everyone happy.

Just look at the Witcher 2. There's an option to deactivate the sucking QTEs.

[RDST]

 I think you guys are missing one of the big points here. A game balanced for thermal clips is not balanced for unlimited ammo. The health system, amount of enemies, and game pacing do not lend themselves the overheating system. In effect, having an unlimted ammo in ME3, when it is balanced for thermal clips, is cheating.

-RDST

Modifié par RDST, 27 mai 2011 - 04:45 .

[Ace of Dawn]

If I remember correctly, the hybrid system was originally implemented but deemed imbalanced in regards to gameplay and dropped for the current setup.

Personally, while essentially having infinite ammo was cool in Mass Effect 1, it really simplified the shooting mechanics. Even replaying ME1 now, I find that my standard tactics are just forgotten and I just fire without consequence. Whenever I go into a fight, there's no tension. If I overheat the gun, I just wait for the cooldown and fire some more.

Mass Effect 2 changed that up. Sure, lore wise it was a little flimsy, but in the end, it makes combat more intense. It forces you to think things out, even if for some of you it's whether or not you can continue using the select weapon.

Also, I really think the whole "unique v every other shooter" and "more of a shooter than an RPG" arguments are more flimsy than the lore. Yes, no matter how they word it, it's more or less ammo. But it's not like it becoming ammo suddenly makes it inferior. Saying the inclusion of ammo "opens up to a broader audience" makes zero sense. You'd likely feel that if they were targeting a larger audience, you'd appeal to the lowest common denominator, and in the end, keeping track of a meter and not how much "ammo" you have appeals a lot more to a broader audience.

The shooting mechanics in ME1 were weak, being able to make a gun that never overheated and dealt ridiculous damage was a reality, and basically summed up any battle into "fire and forget". It was simplistic.

And for all you "It's an RPG!". No. It's an RPG and a Third-Person Shooter. Concessions must be made by one for the other.

And in the end, even if it reverted to "infinite" ammo, for obvious reasons the guns would overheat very quickly to the point of being annoying.

Thermal clips are balanced and fine. They make things more interesting. Yes, you run out of ammo, even if you land every shot. That's kind of the point, you have to become creative with how you manage threats. In the end, it forces you to rely on those other things you have, powers. Those things you level up and progress in an RPG fashion.

And I would like to add, that even when I play on insanity, running out is never a huge issue for me. Sure, one gun may empty out, but then I switch to another and work the situation so I can get more ammo. I have never had the situation go so far as for me to have 0 ammo in all weapons. If that did occur, I know I messed up, but being a Sentinel, would start using my powers. Push comes to shover, Heavy Weapon, which I hate using. The game punishes you a lot more for running out of ammo in ME2 than in ME1 for having a weapon overheat.

Modifié par Ace of Dawn, 27 mai 2011 - 05:14 .

[Someone With Mass]

I like the irony when people are whining about how they don't want to play a mindless shooter, but then want infinite ammo so they don't have to think about reserving clips.

[AngelicMachinery]

I don't understand people's problem with Ammo. Infinite bullets is far to simplistic.

[DieBySword]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

I don't understand people's problem with Ammo. Infinite bullets is far to simplistic.

Hilarious Its like you believe ME1 had only unlimited ammo and no limited (overheat) clip size. Lets drop the exploit "no-oveheat" bacuase it was a choice and really 99,9% of ppl did not use it like you guys want us to think.
So we got limited clip size in both games while one is a random number depending on the play style (me1) and the other is a static number - nothing different about both game. Lets go to the second display the total ammo count ^^ me1 had unlimited ammo while me2 has unlimited ammo but you need to scavenge it and because its not a problem to stafe for the glowing TC ammo issues are non-existant. Nothing changed about the shooting from 1 to 2 its as simplistic as it gets

Ace of Dawn wrote...

If I remember correctly, the hybrid system was originally implemented but deemed imbalanced in regards to gameplay and dropped for the current setup.

We only know a dev said they tried a hybrid and "they" think it sucked but we do not know who "they" were and what exactly the system look liked and what they didnt exactly like about it.

Personally, while essentially having infinite ammo was cool in Mass Effect 1, it really simplified the shooting mechanics. Even replaying ME1 now, I find that my standard tactics are just forgotten and I just fire without consequence. Whenever I go into a fight, there's no tension. If I overheat the gun, I just wait for the cooldown and fire some more.

Maybe thats because you arent a glass man walking in ME1 compared to ME2 and its not the infinite ammo that changed your tactics but the knowledge you are hard to kill, can buff yourself with biotics and OP everyone with biotics.

Mass Effect 2 changed that up. Sure, lore wise it was a little flimsy, but in the end, it makes combat more intense. It forces you to think things out, even if for some of you it's whether or not you can continue using the select weapon.

the addition of a counter in the corner surely didnt make the game more intense you forgeting you die easy in ME2 and need different type of guns to combat different protections and biotics arent OP like ME1

Also, I really think the whole "unique v every other shooter" and "more of a shooter than an RPG" arguments are more flimsy than the lore. Yes, no matter how they word it, it's more or less ammo. But it's not like it becoming ammo suddenly makes it inferior.

I agree that ME is not an RPG but the first game was a well balanced RPG-shooter game when second one is more shooter centered but its still got RPG elements.

Saying the inclusion of ammo "opens up to a broader audience" makes zero
sense. You'd likely feel that if they were targeting a larger audience,
you'd appeal to the lowest common denominator, and in the end, keeping
track of a meter and not how much "ammo" you have appeals a lot more to a
broader audience.

Lol are you contradicting yourself here The lowest common denominator is ammo counter because shooter use it and its used for years now and its well know around, while overheating weapons are just gimmick used to kill waves in games like COD when you arm and stationary heavy machine gun that overheats without ammo counter and you shoot waves of enemies.

The shooting mechanics in ME1 were weak, being able to make a gun that never overheated and dealt ridiculous damage was a reality, and basically summed up any battle into "fire and forget". It was simplistic.

That was bad ballance but you could mod the gun another way and make it work like its should without exploiting it. You decided to exploit it and now your not content, just figgures. We cant forget that ME1 shooter aspect werent as strong and complex as ME2 and powers were OP too

And for all you "It's an RPG!". No. It's an RPG and a Third-Person Shooter. Concessions must be made by one for the other.

Agree that its an "RPG and a Third-Person Shooter." and gonna hope it balanced those two in ME3 good

And in the end, even if it reverted to "infinite" ammo, for obvious reasons the guns would overheat very quickly to the point of being annoying.

Man should have told me your a BW dev in charge of the shooter aspects

Thermal clips are balanced and fine. They make things more interesting. Yes, you run out of ammo, even if you land every shot. That's kind of the point, you have to become creative with how you manage threats. In the end, it forces you to rely on those other things you have, powers. Those things you level up and progress in an RPG fashion.

Yeah it work that way for new ppl who dont know how to play and only gun things, the oldies use powers, team combos, and change guns for different protection so ammo is no concern for them.

And I would like to add, that even when I play on insanity, running out is never a huge issue for me. Sure, one gun may empty out, but then I switch to another and work the situation so I can get more ammo. I have never had the situation go so far as for me to have 0 ammo in all weapons. If that did occur, I know I messed up, but being a Sentinel, would start using my powers. Push comes to shover, Heavy Weapon, which I hate using. The game punishes you a lot more for running out of ammo in ME2 than in ME1 for having a weapon overheat.

[Clonedzero]

every single person i know, and every other ME1 board ALL used set ups so their weapons would never ever over heat. saying most people didnt do that is a flat out lie. it wasnt a hard to figure out thing, that you had to experiment with special weapon mod setups to figure it out. it was painfully obvious and everyone did it.

with the top end weapons you didnt even have to try that hard. my spectre rifle had TWO scram rails and snowblind bullets, it NEVER overheats. i could tape the fire button down, leave for 5 minutes and come back. wont have overheated once.


this idea is dumb because its asking the devs to admit their choice of using clips is "wrong", which is isn't.

also as a pre-order bonus? are you insane? worst idea ive heard in awhile, what about people buying it a couple weeks after release? they're dirty and not worthy of the feature i guess?

[Ace of Dawn]

DieBySword wrote...

We only know a dev said they tried a hybrid and "they" think it sucked but we do not know who "they" were and what exactly the system look liked and what they didnt exactly like about it.

True, nothing was ever really explained past that. Though with that said, mods have been presented to replicate the hybrid ammo, and the creator of one has said that the weapons were imbalanced because of this. I would gather it is because they had the health system finalized before the weapon balancing was done. But in the end, it doesn't really matter. How they feel supercede's our thoughts on it, since it's the game they are designing, and their intentions behind it.

DieBySword wrote...

Maybe thats because you arent a glass man walking in ME1 compared to ME2 and its not the infinite ammo that changed your tactics but the knowledge you are hard to kill, can buff yourself with biotics and OP everyone with biotics.

the addition of a counter in the corner surely didnt make the game more intense [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/ninja.png[/smilie] you forgeting you die easy in ME2 and need different type of guns to combat different protections and biotics arent OP like ME1

True, to simply say that the ammo mechanics changing was the reason I played differently would be wrong. It was a combination of how much more durable you were.

DieBySword wrote...

I agree that ME is not an RPG but the first game was a well balanced RPG-shooter game when second one is more shooter centered but its still got RPG elements.

Yeah, it was well-balanced. But at the same time, it felt like neither part trule excelled.

DieBySword wrote...

Lol are you contradicting yourself here The lowest common denominator is ammo counter because shooter use it and its used for years now and its well know around, while overheating weapons are just gimmick used to kill waves in games like COD when you arm and stationary heavy machine gun that overheats without ammo counter and you shoot waves of enemies.

I don't quite see what your point is here, though. Yes, plenty of shooters use a counter, because knowing how many shots you have left is important. But then why do you call overheating a gimmick? Having a counter better conveys how many more shots you can take over a meter, because it's a number. I am not saying the visual representation is what makes it the LCD, I am saying the mechanic behind it is. With ammo, you have finite resources. With overheat, that is one less issue you have to worry about. It appeals to LCD because, in theory, you no longer have to think about ever running out of ammo. Yes, your gun overheats, but it will never not fire a bullet. Something many people would like to have in real life or in other games.

DieBySword wrote...

That was bad ballance but you could mod the gun another way and make it work like its should without exploiting it. You decided to exploit it and now your not content, just figgures. We cant forget that ME1 shooter aspect werent as strong and complex as ME2 and powers were OP too

I wouldn't really say you're exploiting the gun, and in the end, the gun works as it always should, by firing a bullet. You are given mods that reduce the overheat of a gun. Using them does just that. I am not even saying using two frictionless materials to achieve this. I am currently on my "first" playthough of a ME1 game. Bought the VII master gear, and have mods available to a level 36 soldier. My guns are capable of overheating, yes. But with how fights go, that rarely happens anymore, and as I progress further, it will happen less. It's not even that they won't overheat, it's that they take longer to do so, that in the end, it's moot.

DieBySword wrote...

Agree that its an "RPG and a Third-Person Shooter." and gonna hope it balanced those two in ME3 good

Maybe. The issue here is that balanced doesn't necessarily mean great. To me, it felt like ME1 wasn't sure if it wanted to be a shooter or an RPG. I think the problem is that people want one or the other. Making them "balanced" with equal parts shooter and RPG makes things weird. You get into a firefight and in the end, despite being an N7 soldier, you are not proficient with using an Assault Rifle. Some RPG elements just don't stand up to well to shooter mechanics. But this is more of an opinion than anything else...

DieBySword wrote...
Man should have told me your a BW dev in charge of the shooter aspects

Yes, I did state this more as a matter of fact, but guns did take awhile to overheat. And with how much quicker everything else is in ME2, waiting for your gun to cool down seems odd.

DieBySword wrote...

Yeah it work that way for new ppl who dont know how to play and only gun things, the oldies use powers, team combos, and change guns for different protection so ammo is no concern for them.

Creative, no? New people learn that they can't just gun everything down, old people are already ahead of the curve.

EDIT: Also, i am sorry for how this got formatted out. I hate how everything is in one just quote box...

Modifié par Ace of Dawn, 27 mai 2011 - 08:01 .

[Someone With Mass]

The only weapons I didn't give infinite ammo to were the sniper rifles and the shotguns. Did quite the opposite there. Everything else, virtually unstoppable.

Not much strategy beyond that and putting health regeneration in my armor slots.

[Phaedon]

RDST wrote...

 I think you guys are missing one of the big points here. A game balanced for thermal clips is not balanced for unlimited ammo. The health system, amount of enemies, and game pacing do not lend themselves the overheating system. In effect, having an unlimted ammo in ME3, when it is balanced for thermal clips, is cheating.

-RDST

[Murmillos]

Someone With Mass wrote...

I like the irony when people are whining about how they don't want to play a mindless shooter, but then want infinite ammo so they don't have to think about reserving clips.

They are talking about story line elements there Einstein.

[Murmillos]

RDST wrote...
having an unlimted ammo in ME3, when it is balanced for thermal clips, is cheating.

in ME2 you mean?


With a "unlimited / self cooling weapon" I can play the game to my tactics, instead of worring about being a thermal clip ****. Running around cover to the next spot of thermal clips.

Is it cheating, maybe so, but I'm no longer hindered of needing to take a lesser tactical location because it has thermal clips over a better tatical location that doesn't.  

Unless thats the built in game design the "developers" intented.  But they can go plough themselves.

[DieBySword]

Ace of Dawn wrote...

DieBySword wrote...

We only know a dev said they tried a hybrid and "they" think it sucked but we do not know who "they" were and what exactly the system look liked and what they didnt exactly like about it.

True, nothing was ever really explained past that. Though with that said, mods have been presented to replicate the hybrid ammo, and the creator of one has said that the weapons were imbalanced because of this. I would gather it is because they had the health system finalized before the weapon balancing was done. But in the end, it doesn't really matter. How they feel supercede's our thoughts on it, since it's the game they are designing, and their intentions behind it.

I remember a post in this forum that they said ppl were full-auto sprying and using all the termal clips to shoot as much as they could and then when the TC ended only managing overheating guns. It wasnt said if they never restocked on clps again or how many TC they had on them or what combat situation they were using. Logicaly I would use the termal clips the same way ( to shoot as much as I could) if I had a lot of them without any limitation and more laying around and the combat wouldnt need me too choose when too use them because they were scares.

Ace of Dawn wrote...

DieBySword wrote...
I agree that ME is not an RPG but the first game was a well balanced RPG-shooter game when second one is more shooter centered but its still got RPG elements.

]Yeah, it was well-balanced. But at the same time, it felt like neither part trule excelled.

Well I see the RPG element as the story and dialog and not as much as stat based combat so the combat and story felt balanced and made the story fun,solid and good paced. ME2 story was good but it felt slow and out of place.

Me1 = eden prime attacked -> fight to the becone -> prot. becon, saren traitor -> find evidence on saren -> finding the doctor, recruiting garrus -> going to the bar -> on way recruiting Wrex -> find evidence -> recruit Tali -> go find Liara -> Benezia MU relay info -> find the thorian -> find the missing team -> fight saren, new info on reapers -> citadel lockdown -> go to ilos -> rescue the citadel -> final boss 

Me2 = go to first colony find clue -> recruit 4 squad members -> go to horizont -> recruit 3 squad members -> IFF -> Colector base -> Boss

In Me1 evereything was connected, the story was longer and it had a mystery to solve. Recruiting wasnt a core element of the game it was natural and with the flow of the story and it all lead to a great final. ME2 got a nice final too but how we got to it is a long slow way of a "Recruit story" than an actual story and when we finaly got info on the IFF its fast forward to the end battle.

Ace of Dawn wrote...

DieBySword wrote...

Lol are you contradicting yourself here The lowest common denominator is ammo counter because shooter use it and its used for years now and its well know around, while overheating weapons are just gimmick used to kill waves in games like COD when you arm and stationary heavy machine gun that overheats without ammo counter and you shoot waves of enemies.

I don't quite see what your point is here, though. Yes, plenty of shooters use a counter, because knowing how many shots you have left is important. But then why do you call overheating a gimmick? Having a counter better conveys how many more shots you can take over a meter, because it's a number. I am not saying the visual representation is what makes it the LCD, I am saying the mechanic behind it is. With ammo, you have finite resources. With overheat, that is one less issue you have to worry about. It appeals to LCD because, in theory, you no longer have to think about ever running out of ammo. Yes, your gun overheats, but it will never not fire a bullet. Something many people would like to have in real life or in other games.

I meant it as a gimmick because its not a core design of the game but something throw in to lenghten certain parts and its not used that often either.

Ace of Dawn wrote...

DieBySword wrote...

That was bad ballance but you could mod the gun another way and make it work like its should without exploiting it. You decided to exploit it and now your not content, just figgures. [b]We cant forget that ME1 shooter aspect werent as strong and complex as ME2 and powers were OP too

I wouldn't really say you're exploiting the gun, and in the end, the gun works as it always should, by firing a bullet. You are given mods that reduce the overheat of a gun. Using them does just that. I am not even saying using two frictionless materials to achieve this. I am currently on my "first" playthough of a ME1 game. Bought the VII master gear, and have mods available to a level 36 soldier. My guns are capable of overheating, yes. But with how fights go, that rarely happens anymore, and as I progress further, it will happen less. It's not even that they won't overheat, it's that they take longer to do so, that in the end, it's moot.

Well said but it wasnt intended that way either. We can just throw it as the devs not giving it the proper balance to make it work the way it was intended but the concept behind it was ok.

[Jorina Leto]

RDST wrote...

 I think you guys are missing one of the big points here. A game balanced for thermal clips is not balanced for unlimited ammo. The health system, amount of enemies, and game pacing do not lend themselves the overheating system. In effect, having an unlimted ammo in ME3, when it is balanced for thermal clips, is cheating.

-RDST

The Overheat-Cooldown system doesn't equal unlimited "ammo".
Yoo need to play a huge part of the game to get the unlimited "ammo" mods.
This issue could be fixed easily be reworking the heat mechanics and or the weapon mod mechanics.

Cheating is not a problem: It's a single player game not a multy player shooter.

And if you prefer the standard shooter mechanic, don't change it in the options menu.

[Sparrow44]

People complaining about ammo in a shooter?

Why don't BioWare create a DLC pack where we replace guns with swords and bows? Yeah that'll put the RPG back in Mass Effect. That said I'm sure my Shepard would be eager to wield a proper Claymore, not that crazy shotgun shaped like a rectangular box.

Modifié par Sparroww, 27 mai 2011 - 09:27 .

[Nashiktal]

Jorina Leto wrote...

RDST wrote...

 I think you guys are missing one of the big points here. A game balanced for thermal clips is not balanced for unlimited ammo. The health system, amount of enemies, and game pacing do not lend themselves the overheating system. In effect, having an unlimted ammo in ME3, when it is balanced for thermal clips, is cheating.

-RDST

The Overheat-Cooldown system doesn't equal unlimited "ammo".
Yoo need to play a huge part of the game to get the unlimited "ammo" mods.
This issue could be fixed easily be reworking the heat mechanics and or the weapon mod mechanics.

Cheating is not a problem: It's a single player game not a multy player shooter.

And if you prefer the standard shooter mechanic, don't change it in the options menu.

What? I remember quite clearly (having just finished another ME1 run a week ago) that even the very first assault rifle had a fairly short cooldown. The only reason you didn't hold down the trigger was because of the bullet spread caused by sheps low level early on in the game.

That said, for that *easy rework* is not so easy when you have to rebalance the entire game for it. Yes, you do balance the game. Encounters that are supposed to be difficult *say that new husk enemy with a canon for an arm* would suddenly become much easier now that you don't have to move from a single spot. (Which is already bad enough in ME2 as it is. One of the reasons for the clips was to encourage the player to move around instead of tanking, to marginal success)

Since such an enemy is now easy... They would have to find a new way to make said mini-boss worthy of its title. That might mean a new enemy  or mechanic they would have to introduce to make said enemy worthy again.

Modifié par Nashiktal, 27 mai 2011 - 09:35 .

[Murmillos]

DieBySword wrote...
Well said but it wasnt intended that way either. We can just throw it as the devs not giving it the proper balance to make it work the way it was intended but the concept behind it was ok.

This has always been my stance on the issue. The concept was great, the balancing (between the guns, weapons, talents points) didn't quite flow together well, leaving the overall gameplay poor.

My fix would have been to simply tie all damage/cooling together so the player can never mod out of a ~2.5 cool down time from 99% heat.  Full auto weapons can take 4-5 seconds (if you can stay out of cover that long) to reach 99% heat, and the simi-automatic weapons still take the same number of rounds to fire as fast as the player can empty all rounds to reach 99% heat (again, if you can stay out of cover that long).
Any over heat takes 4 seconds to wait for the weapon to cool down.
"Thermal Clips" are replaced by he3 shots which are used to cool off a weapon from 100% to 0% if the player uses that instead of waiting the 4 seconds.

No endless/unlimited ammo, no thermal clip scrounge hunting... and the weapons all feel similar so the player is never thrown for a loop when dealing with a new weapon.

[Murmillos]

Sparroww wrote...
People complaining about ammo in a shooter?

Why don't BioWare create a DLC pack where we replace guns with swords and bows? Yeah that'll put the RPG back in Mass Effect. That said I'm sure my Shepard would be eager to wield a proper Claymore, not that crazy shotgun shaped like a rectangular box.

DM: Roll 20 for chance of passing a Snarky remark.
You: rolled a 1. critical fail on Snark.

The type of weapons use of ZERO bearing if the game is an RPG or not.  A game with "rpg" mechanics is an RPG regardless if we use Claymores, Guns or Magic (or even our bare fists)

And we are not complaining about ammo in a shooter, we are debating about the concept of "ammo" in ME2.

Modifié par Murmillos, 27 mai 2011 - 09:38 .

[Ace of Dawn]

[quote]DieBySword wrote...

Well I see the RPG element as the story and dialog and not as much as stat based combat so the combat and story felt balanced and made the story fun,solid and good paced. ME2 story was good but it felt slow and out of place.[/quote]

Ah, I define RPGs by the stat mechanics, since I feel dialogue and story aren't exclusive to RPGs. But RPG has come to the point that is is fairly broad and can be defined as such. Otherwise, I do agree that the flow of the overall story was better in ME1 than in 2. Everything had more relevance to one another, rather than being a series of events that all lead to the end.[/quote]

[quote]DieBySword wrote...]

Well said but it wasnt intended that way either. We can just throw it as the devs not giving it the proper balance to make it work the way it was intended but the concept behind it was ok.[/quote]

Agreed. The concept behind it was great, and admittedly a part of me would love to see it return in some capacity, but the execution by Bioware is definitely to blame for the mire it has received. Though with that said, that's sort of an RPG norm, as well. Reward players for their goals by giving them the "infinity plus one" sword, so to speak. Really, the issue runs a little deeper than even overheat v tc, but it's not really all that important anymore.


[quote]Jorina Leto wrote...]
The Overheat-Cooldown system doesn't equal unlimited "ammo".
Yoo need to play a huge part of the game to get the unlimited "ammo" mods.
This issue could be fixed easily be reworking the heat mechanics and or the weapon mod mechanics.

Cheating is not a problem: It's a single player game not a multy player shooter.

And if you prefer the standard shooter mechanic, don't change it in the options menu.[/quote]

It's not unlimited ammo in the strictest sense. Think of it this way. Fire 100 shots in ME1. What have you lost? Nothing, really. Now fire 100 shots in ME2. What have you lost? For some guns, all the ammo you had, for others a portion.

It's the fact that in ME1 you had unlimited bullets to use, and all it took was watching an overheat meter, if that. In Mass Effect 2, each shot mattered. I like using the Vindicator assault rifle, but it burns through thermal clips fast. You have to use it more responsibly.

Cheating was a poor word for him to use (though with that said, you can still "cheat", you're just not inconveniencing anyone else int he process). It would make it imbalanced. Imbalance is bad single player or other wise. A hard part of making a game would be making sure the player can still face a challenger while still being able too overcome it, even if it's with a bit of craftiness. Making you all that more powerful can quickly cheapen the impact of the game, and make combat more of a chore than anything else.

[Sparrow44]

Murmillos wrote...

And we are not complaining about ammo in a shooter, we are debating about the concept of "ammo" in ME2.

Debating what exactly? Ammo is ammo, when you start to run out of it you pick up more, if not switch to another weapon.

As far as it goes in relation to ME1 well this how I'd sum it up:

Gameplay > Game lore

[Murmillos]

Sparroww wrote...

Murmillos wrote...

And we are not complaining about ammo in a shooter, we are debating about the concept of "ammo" in ME2.

Debating what exactly? Ammo is ammo, when you start to run out of it you pick up more, if not switch to another weapon.

As far as it goes in relation to ME1 well this how I'd sum it up:

Gameplay > Game lore

And thats the intent of the converstations, should have Gameplay > Game lore.. 

They could have done it better to match better with lore.. say bursts of he3 after each shot.  Since he3 is used by nearly everything already, using some to cool down weapons for faster firing would have been better lore.

Not this magical random element that holds heat...

But then, we wouldn't have been able to get this cool video:

[Merchant2006]

RolandX9 wrote...

Okay, so some of us aren't happy about the thermal clip situation. It's not changing. I'm guessing that we have zero leverage on this issue for ME3, since most of us are harcore fans dating back to ME1 and Bioware knows we're buying 3. So here's some carrot instead of stick: hey, Bioware, I'll bet a *lot* of us would pay a couple of bucks/preorder through EA if you included some kind of old-school infinite ammo goodie in the DLC slate and/or 
Limited Special Collector's Ultimate Edition.

This way, the hardcore shooter fans can have their "ammo" mechanic and look down on us old-school fans, and us old-school fans...can slot our thermal vents and not give a damn.  Thoughts?

[Jorina Leto]

Sparroww wrote...

People complaining about ammo in a shooter?

Because it's an RPG. And the standard shooter ammo mechanic violates the lore. Therefore the standard ammo shooter mechanic shouldn't be in ME2 and ME3.

Nashiktal wrote...

Jorina Leto wrote...

RDST wrote...

 I think you guys are missing one of the big points here. A game balanced for thermal clips is not balanced for unlimited ammo. The health system, amount of enemies, and game pacing do not lend themselves the overheating system. In effect, having an unlimted ammo in ME3, when it is balanced for thermal clips, is cheating.

-RDST

The Overheat-Cooldown system doesn't equal unlimited "ammo".
Yoo need to play a huge part of the game to get the unlimited "ammo" mods.
This issue could be fixed easily be reworking the heat mechanics and or the weapon mod mechanics.

Cheating is not a problem: It's a single player game not a multy player shooter.

And if you prefer the standard shooter mechanic, don't change it in the options menu.

What? I remember quite clearly (having just finished another ME1 run a week ago) that even the very first assault rifle had a fairly short cooldown. The only reason you didn't hold down the trigger was because of the bullet spread caused by sheps low level early on in the game.

That said, for that *easy rework* is not so easy when you have to rebalance the entire game for it. Yes, you do balance the game. Encounters that are supposed to be difficult *say that new husk enemy with a canon for an arm* would suddenly become much easier now that you don't have to move from a single spot. (Which is already bad enough in ME2 as it is. One of the reasons for the clips was to encourage the player to move around instead of tanking, to marginal success)

Since such an enemy is now easy... They would have to find a new way to make said mini-boss worthy of its title. That might mean a new enemy  or mechanic they would have to introduce to make said enemy worthy again.

You're aware about the fast regenerating and now lower Health and Shields? This was not a minor change. They already balanced a game to the the new gameplay mechanics.

Modifié par Jorina Leto, 27 mai 2011 - 10:52 .

[Aimi]

Jorina Leto wrote...

Because it's an RPG. And the standard shooter ammo mechanic violates the lore. Therefore the standard ammo shooter mechanic shouldn't be in ME2 and ME3.

Pft.  People only complain about lore violations when the lore violation doesn't match up with their preferences.  Nobody's complaining about how biotics don't work at all like the Codex says they do, and nobody ever has, because if biotics worked the way they do in the Codex, they would be boring and nobody would want to use them in combat.  And that particular "problem" has been around since the first game.

[Clonedzero]

Murmillos wrote...

RDST wrote...
having an unlimted ammo in ME3, when it is balanced for thermal clips, is cheating.

in ME2 you mean?


With a "unlimited / self cooling weapon" I can play the game to my tactics, instead of worring about being a thermal clip ****. Running around cover to the next spot of thermal clips.

Is it cheating, maybe so, but I'm no longer hindered of needing to take a lesser tactical location because it has thermal clips over a better tatical location that doesn't.  

Unless thats the built in game design the "developers" intented.  But they can go plough themselves.

thermal clips are confirmed for ME3. so yes the games balance is based around that.

and tactics are about using everything in a situation, removing the challange of having to deal with thermal clips breaks the balance of the game. your "tactics" are cheating.