239 réponses à ce sujet

[Darkben1]

Driveninhifi wrote...

Well, she is very into self-preservation. She's not exactly what you'd call "good with people," so maybe she just assumes you would be up for saving yourself because that's the logical thing to do in her mind?

But since we aren't given much information about the outside world or her plans, the ending definitely appears to have a lot of holes in it. Which is why I was saying it feels kind of forced and inconsistent with the ability to influence the world via your choices.

tbh i was glad after thinking about it that there was a random twist ending ok i still hate the fact theres unanswered question but choices changing the world? i'm glad this isnt fable, 3 choices they change the world

DA O choices to play out differently and choices that you have no control over.. makes it seem more real... cus in life some choices change the world others just influence others differently.. this makes it seem more real

but still nothing worse then getting to this twisty ending and then not finding out what its all about very frustating..

[David Gaider]

Skellimancer wrote...

Writers are emo.

At least you lived after the ending.

Thanks for no real choices, Gaider.

You're welcome.

It is, after all, the very least I could do in return for being second-guessed by a bunch of pouters.

[Darkben1]

But i am hoping if they make a sequal it's an ending like in soul reaver series the last one.. kept you going then throw you off and then instead of simple killing kain you take down the system which is just some kid messing everything .. that is called the edge choice, the coin lends on it's edge the ending you never ever expect happens..



what if this flemith i.e. morrigans mother was the Maker.. maybe it was take morrigan and see what happens BAM morrigan gets the kid captured old god.. or flip side morrigan walks old god dies.. the edge is that morrigan ran back to her mother (still alive) but heres the edge choice Duncan was also saved and he knows were other dragons are

[Taleroth]

David Gaider wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...

Writers are emo.

At least you lived after the ending.

Thanks for no real choices, Gaider.

You're welcome.

It is, after all, the very least I could do in return for being second-guessed by a bunch of pouters.

Be careful, guys.  If we taunt Gaider too much, we might end up with more Morrigan endings.

I would like to apologize for their rudeness.  Please forgive us.

Modifié par Taleroth, 20 novembre 2009 - 06:24 .

[Walina]

Lol, ne please. I would prefer to kill my character at the end to end up with my heart broken of being dumped when I play a guy ^^

[Mikka-chan]

I'm sure others have went through a similar situation to the Morrigan (or Alistair, for that matter) issue in real life. Going through high school or collage with someone, and oh, you're convinced you're in love and maybe you are... but life goes on. 'No matter where you go or what you do, I will follow you!' sounds romantic and it may even be romantic... but life doesn't always work that way, and it's not always the best decision for you. Morrigan believed it was best for her to raise this child alone, and she wanted to do so. I think that seems incredibly in character for how she's presented in game. It's possible to love someone with all your heart and still leave them- and for all the stories of 'TRU LUFF FOREVERRRR', I can think of thousand more tales where, tru luff or not, the world and people move on.



I am sure, wherever Morrigan is now, she thinks about your character often, even though she probably tries not to. And I'm almost positive she has regrets on occasion, although they likely pass. And, there's nothing saying that one won't, one day, meet her again, if he (or she!) searches constantly. Just, for the moment of now: Morrigan made a decision that goes with her previous decisions, and walked away. Respect it and let her go, or cling to the memories and vow to find her- both are options, and seem to be good ones. But 'Morrigan is Morrigan, and she does what she does'... being attracted to someone with a strong will means that sometimes, your left holding the pieces.



I cried a bit seeing Morrigan disappear, myself. But I didn't find it that surprising.



And, hey, it's better then 'morally good' gal's romancing Alistair, who are likely to wind up with a dead hero (or king) at their feet, and there's not even an option to spend the whole 'victory celebration' curled in angry tears bawling.

[Skellimancer]

David Gaider wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...

Writers are emo.

At least you lived after the ending.

Thanks for no real choices, Gaider.

You're welcome.

It is, after all, the very least I could do in return for being second-guessed by a bunch of pouters.

I HATE YOU

[DaneWolf]

How about this... Maybe you will BE the child in the sequal... Have anybody wondered about that?!? Greywardens don't get verry old Allistair tells you so... The child being the new hero would be quite fitting as it is ABORN with the spawnblood of a greywarden it is born perhaps to be a greywarden... And the taint as Morrigan sais can not destroy the child as long as it is as young as it is!

[Eonassassin]

Ok so since I finished the game I've been thinking about the ending and I've come to the conclusion it is what it is for a reason. The developers didn't want us to know morrigan reasons whatever they may be and this is why most people think it's a bad ending. I agree the dialogue was ****ty and the other chars don't interact ATALL they should have atleast given a part to leliana especiallly if she is your interest. Either way I've made my peace with it and I'll simply have to wait for the expac. The DLC is suppose to be pre Denerim stuff right?

[Vilegrim]

David Gaider wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...

Writers are emo.

At least you lived after the ending.

Thanks for no real choices, Gaider.

You're welcome.

It is, after all, the very least I could do in return for being second-guessed by a bunch of pouters.

lol I liked the Morrigan ending, as long as theirs a continuation (with my character if at all possible).  It was a near perfect bittersweet ending, and the acting was awesome. 

[Driveninhifi]

You've created a great thing here and it could be another large milestone of storytelling in this medium. Those certain parts stand out more because the rest is done so phenomenally; and we all have a vested interest in seeing this live up to its potential and hopefully drag the medium forward in terms of interactive storytelling.



I don't think anyone (or should I say everyone?) means the criticism personally - at least I don't when I've criticized the ending - but everyone likes to feel like their voice is being heard. It's not so much second-guessing as a combination of a normal letdown after an intense experience and having a cliffhanger.



Though I know unsolicited advice can be a pain, especially when the person on a message board doesn't know all the facts, so I'll shut up now!

[Akka le Vil]

I found two glaring holes in the Morrigan's ending :

- The whole "it was my plan from the start". As others said, it really sounded "WTF ?", but not in a "what a twist !" way, rather in a "wow, that really doesn't make a lot of sense". The girl didn't even attempt to be social and was even downright vindicative, toward you and even more toward Alistair, while her whole plan was based upon convincing one of you to bed her.Not really efficient nor convincing (and just think how funny it would have been to see Morrigan trying - and failing - at being nice).

- The Mary Sue Syndrom when you are angry and she smug you "ahah screw you" and leave. Seriously. It was a /wallbang moment. I hope I don't have to explain why.

For the rest, the ending was quite enjoyable, and the dilemma very nicely done. It's a TRUE dilemma, where you tear your hair in frustration "I DON'T WANT EITHER OPTION !"

Modifié par Akka le Vil, 20 novembre 2009 - 07:51 .

[Jayce]

 Heh I'm not sure where people get the idea that the Morrigan ending is a big mystery. All the clues are there in game, you just have to put the pieces together.

The thing of it is, Morrigan doesn't have an ulterior motive when Flemeth tells her to accompany you. It's Flemeth with the ulterior motive. (Flemeth saves you & Alastair because she knows it takes a Grey Warden to take the Arch Demon down and in this regard her own survival partially depends on stopping the blight.) and sending Morrigan with you both improves your chances as well as making Morrigan more powerful.

The important bit is that, early in the game, when Morrigan tells you about her mother, you're getting Flemeth's version of events and even though Morrigan more or less says she knows her mother isn't telling her the whole story, she still, perhaps subconciously, believes what Flemeth has told her: that Flemeth is an abomination and that she's in a symbiotic relationship with her demon....

When Morrigan gets her hands on the Black Grimoire she discovers the truth. Flemeth isn't in a symbiotic relationship at all, rather the creature calling itself "Flemeth" is purely the (Pride) demon possessing her and that one day it will dump it's current host body and possess Morrigan instead.

Morrigan's motivation from then on are pure survival. First she wants you to kill "Flemeth" because that will rob the demon of a host but the demon would just come after Morrigan then. Morrigan's solution is the ritual. If she can capture the soul of the Arch-Demon in her child she can use the child as a bargaining chip with "Flemeth", ie. get it possess the child instead of her.

That Morrigan walks away if you turn her offer down is because she wasn't planning it from the beginning, but just that she saw it as a way to save herself primarily and you too, incidentally.  When you refuse, she leaves because she is more or less, going on the run from Flemeth....

It's the same if you agree and it's why she won't tell you what she wants the child for, because she doesn't want you to interfere. 
 

Modifié par Jayce F, 20 novembre 2009 - 07:59 .

[Skellimancer]

Driveninhifi wrote...

You've created a great thing here and it could be another large milestone of storytelling in this medium. Those certain parts stand out more because the rest is done so phenomenally; and we all have a vested interest in seeing this live up to its potential and hopefully drag the medium forward in terms of interactive storytelling.

I don't think anyone (or should I say everyone?) means the criticism personally - at least I don't when I've criticized the ending - but everyone likes to feel like their voice is being heard. It's not so much second-guessing as a combination of a normal letdown after an intense experience and having a cliffhanger.

Though I know unsolicited advice can be a pain, especially when the person on a message board doesn't know all the facts, so I'll shut up now!

Seeing my character nobley sacrificing herself  is something i won't forget, made me proud.

But what if an expansion continues the story?

bah.

[Ecaiki]

Morrigan doesn't value concepts like friendship or love, so expecting her to do a 180 personality wise because of the PC showing her them isn't very realistic.

Akka le Vil wrote...

I found two glaring holes in the Morrigan's ending :

-
The whole "it was my plan from the start". As others said, it really
sounded "WTF ?", but not in a "what a twist !" way, rather in a "wow,
that really doesn't make a lot of sense". The girl didn't even attempt
to be social and was even downright vindicative, toward you and even
more toward Alistair, while her whole plan was based upon convincing
one of you to bed her.Not really efficient nor convincing (and just
think how funny it would have been to see Morrigan trying - and failing
- at being nice).

She probably figured you'd want to survive, and she would get what she wanted.  Heroic notions aside, would you really turn down her offer IRL if it meant not having your soul destroyed?

- The Mary Sue Syndrom when you are angry and she smug you "ahah
screw you" and leave. Seriously. It was a /wallbang moment. I hope I
don't have to explain why.

She calls you a fool, because she can't understand the idea of selfless sacrifice.  She's also not the type to save the day, so why would she go into a situation where she will most likely die, for people she feels nothing for, with a suicidal leader?

Modifié par Ecaiki, 20 novembre 2009 - 08:01 .

[Vilegrim]

Ecaiki wrote...

Morrigan doesn't value concepts like friendship or love, so expecting her to do a 180 personality wise because of the PC showing her them isn't very realistic.

I think it's more didn't understand them and is scared by them, and runs from them. She was taught not to value them, but when she finds them they confuse her, terrify almost, and she runs.

[marshalleck]

Ecaiki wrote...

Morrigan doesn't value concepts like friendship or love, so expecting her to do a 180 personality wise because of the PC showing her them isn't very realistic.

but but but...I bought her gifts! I made all the right dialogue choices! I own her, SHE OWES ME 

Modifié par marshalleck, 20 novembre 2009 - 08:02 .

[T1l]

I'm just upset I couldn't kill her.

When I got to the point where she's all, "Yeah, sleep with me and I'll give birth to a God", I wanted to gut her. Filthy malificar.

Modifié par T1l, 20 novembre 2009 - 08:01 .

[Taleroth]

Ecaiki wrote...

Morrigan doesn't value concepts like friendship or love, so expecting her to do a 180 personality wise because of the PC showing her them isn't very realistic.

Except for the part where she does value them, she even says so, she just never experienced them before.  It's like her denouncement of baubles, yet they're the items she gets most influence with.  And a mirror exactly like the one Flemeth was so right to destroy is itself enough to get her to fall in love with the PC, even if she was turned down previously.

The earliest you can see this is when the topic of love first comes up, if you outright deny that you could fall in love with her, you will lose influence.

[Ecaiki]

Taleroth wrote...

Except for the part where she does value them, she even says so, she just never experienced them before.  It's like her denouncement of baubles, yet they're the items she gets most influence with.  And a mirror exactly like the one Flemeth was so right to destroy is itself enough to get her to fall in love with the PC, even if she was turned down previously.

The earliest you can see this is when the topic of love first comes up, if you outright deny that you could fall in love with her, you will lose influence.

It's easy to claim anything you want, but her actions conflict anything she might have said about it.

Every time I went out of my way to help someone and she was with me, she'd always make some snide comment and then I'd lose influence.  This was even after I was at +95 approval, and done the friendship talk.

Modifié par Ecaiki, 20 novembre 2009 - 08:06 .

[KyoZ]

Jayce F wrote...

 Heh I'm not sure where people get the idea that the Morrigan ending is a big mystery. All the clues are there in game, you just have to put the piece together.

The thing of it is, Morrigan doesn't have an ulterior motive when Flemeth tells her to accompany you. It's Flemeth with the ulterior motive. (Flemeth saves you & Alastair because she knows it takes a Grey Warden to take the Arch Demon down and in this regard her own survival partially depends on stopping the blight.)

The important bit is that, early in the game, when Morrigan tells you about her mother, you're getting Flemeth's version of events and even though Morrigan more or less says she knows her mother isn't telling her the whole story, she still, perhaps subconciously, believes what Flemeth has told her: that Flemeth is an abomination and that she's in a symbiotic relationship with it....

When Morrigan gets her hands on the Black Grimoire she discovers the truth. Flemeth isn't in a symbiotic relationship at all, rather the creature calling itself "Flemeth" is purely the (Pride) demon possessing her and that one day it will dump it's current host body and possess Morrigan instead.

Morrigan's motivation from then on are pure survival. First she wants you to kill "Flemeth" because that will rob the demon of a host but the demon would just come after Morrigan then. Morrigan's solution is the ritual. If she can capture the soul of the Arch-Demon in her child she can use the child as a bargaining chip with "Flemeth", ie. get it possess the child instead of her.

That Morrigan walks away if you turn her offer down is because she wasn't planning it from the beginning but just that she saw it as a way to save herself primarily and you too, incidentley.  When you refuse, she leaves because she is, more or less, going on the run from Flemeth....

It's the same if you agree and it's why she won't tell you what she wants the child for, because she doesn't want you to interfere. 
 

The only problem being, that you can actually keep the Black Grimoire and she will still give you the same options. Also you can just not kill flemeth altogether.

I didn't see the offer as completely unexpected. I shouted WTF at the screen when she stated the offer purely because it meant I lost either way, not because I was surprised, really. I mean sending Morrigan to help you with the blight, that doesn't seem something like a Witch of the Wilds would do. Yes it may be a threat to her, but I honestly don't think a few darkspawns would hurt her. There had to be an ulterior motive. Not to mention Morrigan constantly tells you that the relationship will end badly. I admit, at first I did just take that as her way of being afraid to admit her feelings, however this way makes alot of sense too. A flaw against that ofcourse is when Flemeth actually told Morrigan of this plan, as Morrigan seems genuinly surprised about going with them. Although if i recall correctly after that, Flemeth does say(Not word for word, but something along these lines "You were going to leave this place eventually" in which Morrigan replies "Yes, but I didn't expect it to be like this". Which could suggest that it was brought up before hand and she was just surprised at the timing. I also suppose the other flaw, which Morrigan mentions the reason why Flemeth sent her was for her to gain more experience so the transition would be easier, could be filled by the logic that she meant it in the sense of why Flemeth didn't do it herself or why she didn't just join later, nearer the climax.

I honestly just hope the sequel continues on in someway with Morrigan and the whole God Child thing. As I am genuinly curious to see it. Would be very unhappy to see all of that potential of a sequel to go to waste, if you know what I mean.

[marshalleck]

Jayce F wrote...

 Heh I'm not sure where people get the idea that the Morrigan ending is a big mystery. All the clues are there in game, you just have to put the pieces together.

The thing of it is, Morrigan doesn't have an ulterior motive when Flemeth tells her to accompany you. It's Flemeth with the ulterior motive. (Flemeth saves you & Alastair because she knows it takes a Grey Warden to take the Arch Demon down and in this regard her own survival partially depends on stopping the blight.) and sending Morrigan with you both improves your chances as well as making Morrigan more powerful.

The important bit is that, early in the game, when Morrigan tells you about her mother, you're getting Flemeth's version of events and even though Morrigan more or less says she knows her mother isn't telling her the whole story, she still, perhaps subconciously, believes what Flemeth has told her: that Flemeth is an abomination and that she's in a symbiotic relationship with her demon....

When Morrigan gets her hands on the Black Grimoire she discovers the truth. Flemeth isn't in a symbiotic relationship at all, rather the creature calling itself "Flemeth" is purely the (Pride) demon possessing her and that one day it will dump it's current host body and possess Morrigan instead.

Morrigan's motivation from then on are pure survival. First she wants you to kill "Flemeth" because that will rob the demon of a host but the demon would just come after Morrigan then. Morrigan's solution is the ritual. If she can capture the soul of the Arch-Demon in her child she can use the child as a bargaining chip with "Flemeth", ie. get it possess the child instead of her.

That Morrigan walks away if you turn her offer down is because she wasn't planning it from the beginning, but just that she saw it as a way to save herself primarily and you too, incidentally.  When you refuse, she leaves because she is more or less, going on the run from Flemeth....

It's the same if you agree and it's why she won't tell you what she wants the child for, because she doesn't want you to interfere. 
 

So where did Morrigan learn about how to capture an Old God soul? From Flemeth's grimoire? Was the Old God part of Flemeth's plan too or not?

I dunno, I think there's more to it than just this.

[mrao]

Ecaiki wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

Except for the part where she does value them, she even says so, she just never experienced them before.  It's like her denouncement of baubles, yet they're the items she gets most influence with.  And a mirror exactly like the one Flemeth was so right to destroy is itself enough to get her to fall in love with the PC, even if she was turned down previously.

The earliest you can see this is when the topic of love first comes up, if you outright deny that you could fall in love with her, you will lose influence.

It's easy to claim anything you want, but her actions conflict anything she might have said about it.

Every time I went out of my way to help someone and she was with me, she'd always make some snide comment and then I'd lose influence.  This was even after I was at +95 approval, and done the friendship talk.

At first she might only care about herself, but eventually she can grow to care for the PC. And I mean the PC, not everyone the PC chooses the save. She's still an apostate mage who was raised in a swamp by an abomination. She's fairly scared by the thought of being close to ONE person.

[T1l]

Taleroth wrote...

Except for the part where she does value them, she even says so, she just never experienced them before.  It's like her denouncement of baubles, yet they're the items she gets most influence with.  And a mirror exactly like the one Flemeth was so right to destroy is itself enough to get her to fall in love with the PC, even if she was turned down previously.

The earliest you can see this is when the topic of love first comes up, if you outright deny that you could fall in love with her, you will lose influence.

The real problem with that train of thought is that she still betrays you. Regardless of how she feels, how she's been treated, what you've said and what you've done - in the end she's still out for herself 100%. She deserves to be stuck on the end of a pike and hung up as an example.

How can you have comassion for someone who doesn't have compassion for you? How could you even compare her to someone like Sten, or Oghren, or Dog... or Alistair... or... christ, ANY of the other cast? Her character is completely unlikeable from start to finish.

Like I said, I just hope I get a chance in either future DLC or the sequel to gut the wentch. She's got it coming.

[screwoffreg]

The real problem is with this kind of forum we can register our displeasure real time. Back in ye olden days we had a measure of patience to wait for sequels. The bottom line is the writers probably have an idea of an arc for each character, and it seems your PC and Morrigan's arc is really just beginning. The ending as a cliffhanger was intentional for that reason, and we just have to be patient to see how it resolves. No one would see a romantic movie if within the first 30 minutes the couple got together and lived happily ever after. How dramatic would a drama be if the climax and resolution took place within a few moments after the exposition and the rest of the film was filler? I trust the writers of this game to be able to craft a good story. My only concern is I hope we don't have to wait until 2012 or beyond for the next game!

For those who insist on murdering Morrigan in anger, I'd rather prefer a Mass Effect like option of dropping her like a rock as you can do with that annoying reporter.  That would be satisfying for an "evil" playthrough.

Modifié par screwoffreg, 20 novembre 2009 - 08:17 .