239 réponses à ce sujet

[Taleroth]

T1l wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

Except for the part where she does value them, she even says so, she just never experienced them before.  It's like her denouncement of baubles, yet they're the items she gets most influence with.  And a mirror exactly like the one Flemeth was so right to destroy is itself enough to get her to fall in love with the PC, even if she was turned down previously.

The earliest you can see this is when the topic of love first comes up, if you outright deny that you could fall in love with her, you will lose influence.

The real problem with that train of thought is that she still betrays you. Regardless of how she feels, how she's been treated, what you've said and what you've done - in the end she's still out for herself 100%. She deserves to be stuck on the end of a pike and hung up as an example.

How can you have comassion for someone who doesn't have compassion for you? How could you even compare her to someone like Sten, or Oghren, or Dog... or Alistair... or... christ, ANY of the other cast? Her character is completely unlikeable from start to finish.

Like I said, I just hope I get a chance in either future DLC or the sequel to gut the wentch. She's got it coming.

Unlike Sten, Wynne, Lelianna, and Shale, Morrigan will NEVER attack the PC.  Unlike Alistair, she's able to keep her emotions in check that she won't storm off if you let someone live that she doesn't like, you'll just lose influence.

She's not betraying you by leaving, especially since she'll do it peacefully.  It is betraying you when HALF THE CAST HAVE OPPORTUNITIES TO ATTACK THE PC.

Modifié par Taleroth, 20 novembre 2009 - 08:21 .

[Itkovian]

It seems to me rather clear that the offer you get from Morrigan was part of the plan all along, and indeed she does warn you things will not end well. Clearly this is partly why Flemeth saved you (though I imagine Flemeth is the one who expected to obtain the child - though I imagine having Morrigan bear it was part of the plan).

Either way, I rather liked this, it was quite consistent with her character. She had ulterior motives, and even though she fell in love with you, she chooses to continue with the original plan... because not all romances end well. It was nice to see such an unconventional ending to a romance.

Itkovian

[KyoZ]

T1l wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

Except for the part where she does value them, she even says so, she just never experienced them before.  It's like her denouncement of baubles, yet they're the items she gets most influence with.  And a mirror exactly like the one Flemeth was so right to destroy is itself enough to get her to fall in love with the PC, even if she was turned down previously.

The earliest you can see this is when the topic of love first comes up, if you outright deny that you could fall in love with her, you will lose influence.

The real problem with that train of thought is that she still betrays you. Regardless of how she feels, how she's been treated, what you've said and what you've done - in the end she's still out for herself 100%. She deserves to be stuck on the end of a pike and hung up as an example.

How can you have comassion for someone who doesn't have compassion for you? How could you even compare her to someone like Sten, or Oghren, or Dog... or Alistair... or... christ, ANY of the other cast? Her character is completely unlikeable from start to finish.

Like I said, I just hope I get a chance in either future DLC or the sequel to gut the wentch. She's got it coming.

Hardly. She clearly shows she loves you before she leaves, hell it even states that she felt sorrow and regret for leaving. She had a duty to do, and if that meant parting with the PC, then so be it.

[T1l]

The reason half the cast have opportunities to attack or leave the PC is becasue they're not integral to the main plot. Morrigan is. You can't kill Morrigan because Bioware needed her for plot reasons.



It's got nothing to do with her character.

[Taleroth]

T1l wrote...

The reason half the cast have opportunities to attack or leave the PC is becasue they're not integral to the main plot. Morrigan is. You can't kill Morrigan because Bioware needed her for plot reasons.

It's got nothing to do with her character.

Incorrectamundo.  There's nothing plot critical about Morrigan.  The closest you get is her offer, which you can turn down anyway, where she leaves anyway, negating the supposedly "critical" nature of it.

She doesn't betray and try to kill the PC because, unlike the rest of those gits, she understands the important nature of the task at hand.

Modifié par Taleroth, 20 novembre 2009 - 08:30 .

[mrao]

Im not sure where people get the whole "betrayal" thing. She makes you an offer (not forcing). An offer that will save yours or Alistairs life. You have NO idea what she is going to do with the baby. All you know is that it has the untained soul of an Old God. How do you know the ritual was done just for her benefit, especially since it was Flemeth's plan?

[T1l]

Taleroth wrote...

Incorrectamundo.  There's nothing plot critical about Morrigan.  The closest you get is her offer, which you can turn down anyway, where she leaves anyway, negating the supposedly "critical" nature of it.

Or she goes on to rape someone to get her way anyway. And what is this "duty" you speak of? As if she has been bound to a higher authority other than herself? Lies. I ask you this; if Morrigan were a male character, would you have put up with him? Would you be as understanding?

[David Gaider]

Akka le Vil wrote...
- The whole "it was my plan from the start". As others said, it really sounded "WTF ?", but not in a "what a twist !" way, rather in a "wow, that really doesn't make a lot of sense". The girl didn't even attempt to be social and was even downright vindicative, toward you and even more toward Alistair, while her whole plan was based upon convincing one of you to bed her.Not really efficient nor convincing (and just think how funny it would have been to see Morrigan trying - and failing - at being nice).

I'd be careful with the assumptions. Her plan (or Flemeth's plan, if you prefer) was to convince ANY Grey Warden to perform the ritual prior to the final battle. It doesn't have to be you or Alistair, and there's no way she could have known that the confrontation would come so soon -- unless you'd really prefer to think that her ideal plan was to make that kind of last-minute hard sell. Clearly she saw an opportunity and she took it, making the best out of a bad situation (especially if neither Alistair/Loghain or the PC were her biggest fans).

Or maybe Flemeth did know it would come down like that. Hard to say.

- The Mary Sue Syndrom when you are angry and she smug you "ahah screw you" and leave. Seriously. It was a /wallbang moment. I hope I don't have to explain why.

It seems it's become very common for people to invoke the "Mary Sue" comment when they simply wish to bash a character they don't like or don't understand. I don't think Morrigan fits your standard Mary Sue build, and certainly I don't see her as a projection of myself in the slightest. If you prefer to think of her as wielding the Plot Hammer, that's up to you, but that's not the same thing as being a Mary Sue, either.

Insofar as Morrigan leaving when she's in love with the player, I'll say this: Morrigan says right from the get go that she sees love as a weakness. Then she falls in love with you. Did it tempt her to sway from her mission? No doubt it did -- and that would have frightened her more than anything else, don't you think? It is possible to do what you have to do even when love is on the line. People who believe otherwise are, I think, being a little too romantic. And this is why Morrigan told you from the beginning that it wasn't going to work like you thought it would. She didn't want to get close, maybe even resented the fact that she was being sent for that very purpose -- especially when it went against her very nature. Whether you think she acted like she did because of or despite that is up to you.

As for the rest of the speculation, I'll leave that up to you all.

[Dussan2]

marshalleck wrote...

Infiltrator wrote...

I think it's laziness still. Not necessarily the writers because it wouldn't be hard to come up with an alternate ending if you were romancing her.

Yes, and this ending would involve what, exactly? Hero changes the girl into the perfect woman, they settle down and spawn children? How would that not be a lazy ending?

Morrigan has her own plans, and they don't involve you beyond the ritual. Tough luck. During the course of the romance, you can make her fall in love with you, but she never loses sight of the goal she has had all along--restoring the soul of an Old God. She repeatedly tries to stop the relationship from developing because she knows it's something that can't last. It's your fault for improperly reading her character and recklessly pursuing the relationship. Heck, even Wynne sees it coming and warns you if I remember correctly.

IMO it's about time RPGs moved past puerile "get the girl, save the world" plots. If that's what you want, what's wrong with Leliana?

What this guy said.

She is all for the casual romp and tumble but once actual human emotion somthing she has stated before she does not know how to deal with because of her isolation with Flemeth makes it hard for her to cope with those feelings.

Morrigan puts on several acts.  One of the biggest is that she doesn't care.  She does care.  She isn't all about chaos and evil, she is not. 

I found her incredibly fun character.  My current playthrough it's all about the romance.

[nub5]

[quote]Taleroth wrote...
Incorrectamundo.  There's nothing plot critical about Morrigan.  The closest you get is her offer, which you can turn down anyway, where she leaves anyway, negating the supposedly "critical" nature of it.quote]

Can you be sure about this?  Perhaps she is integral to the Dragon Age storyline which is to span 3 games.

[Taleroth]

nub5 wrote...

Taleroth wrote...
Incorrectamundo.  There's nothing plot critical about Morrigan.  The closest you get is her offer, which you can turn down anyway, where she leaves anyway, negating the supposedly "critical" nature of it.

Can you be sure about this?  Perhaps she is integral to the Dragon Age storyline which is to span 3 games.

Considering she has at least 3 endings in the epilogue, child, Orlais, DEAD, I'd be doubtful that her "integral" nature is what forces her not to attack the PC.

[T1l]

David Gaider wrote...

Interesting. Even David mentions the concept of "mission". "Duty". "Mission". Who or what is this higher authority Morrigan has to answer to, exactly, other than herself? Where's the accountability? With Flemmeth out of the way, Morrigans hand isn't being forced by anyone other than herself.

[mrao]

T1l wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Interesting. Even David mentions the concept of "mission". "Duty". "Mission". Who or what is this higher authority Morrigan has to answer to, exactly, other than herself? Where's the accountability? With Flemmeth out of the way, Morrigans hand isn't being forced by anyone other than herself.

After Flemeth "Dies' Morrigan mentions that Flemeth is most likely not really dead.

Morrigan is not the most open person, she doesn't have to lay out everything about her life to you, and she makes that fairly clear at the start.

People can make as many assumptions as they want, and its a lot of fun to speculate, but we won't know for sure until a sequel/expansion.

Modifié par mrao, 20 novembre 2009 - 08:42 .

[David Gaider]

nub5 wrote...
Can you be sure about this?  Perhaps she is integral to the Dragon Age storyline which is to span 3 games.

I'm not sure why some people assume that Morrigan's tale MUST be central and definitive. It could be, but the certainty some people express is sort of like how some people are absolutely certain they know where a movie is going half-way through (or five minutes in). They might very well be right, but the Morrigan fans should be aware that their version of the tale is hardly definitive.

[T1l]

mrao wrote...

After Flemeth "Dies' Morrigan mentions that Flemeth is most likely not really dead.

Morrigan is not the most open person, she doesn't have to lay out everything about her life to you, and she makes that fairly clear at the start.

"Just becasue" isn't a compelling argument for me, sorry. Where's the motivation?

[David Gaider]

T1l wrote...
Interesting. Even David mentions the concept of "mission". "Duty". "Mission". Who or what is this higher authority Morrigan has to answer to, exactly, other than herself? Where's the accountability? With Flemmeth out of the way, Morrigans hand isn't being forced by anyone other than herself.

A man on a mission doesn't have to be handed that mission from someone in authority. It could just be something you really think you have to do. Why Morrigan might have thought it was so important she didn't really say, did she? Or perhaps she did, if you were listening. Sometimes duty is doing what you're told and sometimes it's doing what you think because you honestly believe it's important.

[Driveninhifi]

David Gaider wrote...
Insofar as Morrigan leaving when she's in love with the player, I'll say this: Morrigan says right from the get go that she sees love as a weakness. Then she falls in love with you. Did it tempt her to sway from her mission? No doubt it did -- and that would have frightened her more than anything else, don't you think? It is possible to do what you have to do even when love is on the line. People who believe otherwise are, I think, being a little too romantic. And this is why Morrigan told you from the beginning that it wasn't going to work like you thought it would. She didn't want to get close, maybe even resented the fact that she was being sent for that very purpose -- especially when it went against her very nature. Whether you think she acted like she did because of or despite that is up to you.

As for the rest of the speculation, I'll leave that up to you all.

And this, really, is what I feel makes her compelling as a character. There aren't many characters in games that are nuanced enough for you to actually see their inner struggle playing out and Morrigan really succeeds at that. It does definitely make sense for someone who believes love is a weakness to take off since they have a decent excuse (plan's over, gotta jet) - though I'm not sure that's true in all cases.

From a purely story perspective, I do feel that the ritual should have been introduced in the background earlier so it's not so sudden and I think the player needed to be given more indication that Morrigan would care about 'duty' to the degree she clearly does. But I've enumerated this enough times already, so I'll leave it at that. Let the speculation commence!

[Akka le Vil]

Ecaiki wrote...

Morrigan doesn't value concepts like friendship or love, so expecting her to do a 180 personality wise because of the PC showing her them isn't very realistic.

She probably figured you'd want to survive, and she would get what she wanted.  Heroic notions aside, would you really turn down her offer IRL if it meant not having your soul destroyed?

I'm not expecting her to make a 180° change of personnality, I'm expecting her to act as the manipulative b*tch she is : working toward furthering her goals.
How does antagonizing the PC and Alistair actually helps her chances to bed you ?
Don't forget either that we can send her off at any time, BEFORE learning that killing the Archdemon would destroy our soul. Is it a smart move to vindicate the person you need to have bringing you ?
Wouldn't it be smarter to play coy and nice - at least nice toward him and Alistair - to be on their good side, at least until the occasion to present them with the "do it or you'll die" option is ripe ?

She should take lessons from Anora

She calls you a fool, because she can't understand the idea of selfless sacrifice.  She's also not the type to save the day, so why would she go into a situation where she will most likely die, for people she feels nothing for, with a suicidal leader?

Again, you miss the point.
The problem is that, if we chose the answers "mad at her and threatening to kill her", she look at you smugly and walk past you "ahah you can't do anything", and we do nothing, arms crossed.
This just reeks of "untouchable Mary Sue". Why isn't she afraid of someone who has a body count in three digits ? Why isn't the PC allowed to kill her is (s)he feels betrayed ? The whole scene just doesn't make any sense.
The fact that she leave my PC is totally ok, it's in her character. The fact that she just shows smugness and that the PC isn't allowed to lift a fingher against her isn't ok at all and feel extremely annoying.

[T1l]

David Gaider wrote...
A man on a mission doesn't have to be handed that mission from someone in authority. It could just be something you really think you have to do. Why Morrigan might have thought it was so important she didn't really say, did she? Or perhaps she did, if you were listening. Sometimes duty is doing what you're told and sometimes it's doing what you think because you honestly believe it's important.

I guess then it gets back to the crux of the issue; that Morrigan is a complete ******.

You have to give credit where credit is due, though. Writers of Bioware, I salute you. How many characters out there from games can create such debate!? Much love, Bioware. Much love.

[sylkwyrm1]

David Gaider wrote...

Akka le Vil wrote...
- The whole "it was my plan from the start". As others said, it really sounded "WTF ?", but not in a "what a twist !" way, rather in a "wow, that really doesn't make a lot of sense". The girl didn't even attempt to be social and was even downright vindicative, toward you and even more toward Alistair, while her whole plan was based upon convincing one of you to bed her.Not really efficient nor convincing (and just think how funny it would have been to see Morrigan trying - and failing - at being nice).

I'd be careful with the assumptions. Her plan (or Flemeth's plan, if you prefer) was to convince ANY Grey Warden to perform the ritual prior to the final battle. It doesn't have to be you or Alistair, and there's no way she could have known that the confrontation would come so soon -- unless you'd really prefer to think that her ideal plan was to make that kind of last-minute hard sell. Clearly she saw an opportunity and she took it, making the best out of a bad situation (especially if neither Alistair/Loghain or the PC were her biggest fans).

Or maybe Flemeth did know it would come down like that. Hard to say.

- The Mary Sue Syndrom when you are angry and she smug you "ahah screw you" and leave. Seriously. It was a /wallbang moment. I hope I don't have to explain why.

It seems it's become very common for people to invoke the "Mary Sue" comment when they simply wish to bash a character they don't like or don't understand. I don't think Morrigan fits your standard Mary Sue build, and certainly I don't see her as a projection of myself in the slightest. If you prefer to think of her as wielding the Plot Hammer, that's up to you, but that's not the same thing as being a Mary Sue, either.

Insofar as Morrigan leaving when she's in love with the player, I'll say this: Morrigan says right from the get go that she sees love as a weakness. Then she falls in love with you. Did it tempt her to sway from her mission? No doubt it did -- and that would have frightened her more than anything else, don't you think? It is possible to do what you have to do even when love is on the line. People who believe otherwise are, I think, being a little too romantic. And this is why Morrigan told you from the beginning that it wasn't going to work like you thought it would. She didn't want to get close, maybe even resented the fact that she was being sent for that very purpose -- especially when it went against her very nature. Whether you think she acted like she did because of or despite that is up to you.

As for the rest of the speculation, I'll leave that up to you all.

i actually had a relatively fullfilling friendship (i of course had to teach her what friendship meant) with my good gay male character and her (she was at camp since i got wynne (hag) of course).

and when she gives you the offer, i believed she definately did not want my character to die (or become overshaodwed by alistairs sacrifce, but he wasn;t in it for the glory) not once did i believe it was -only- because of that, i mean alistair could have died, but i chose to believe she knew i'd sacrifce myself after getting alistair and anora married, but i said no, despite her beseeching me to think of what will happen to zev, which very nearly made me agree right there.

but at the end of the day she said it was flemeths plan, flemeth who i couldn't possibly perma-kill also according to her then she turned to leave i begged her not to and she says "you do as you must and so must i, farewell, my friend" and i had the urge to cr- belch in a manly way, which really susrpised me i was not expecting to get so emotional over her except for laughter, all in all it was the perfect prelude to my sacrifce, went and felt just right

if you don't make friends with her i guess she just feels like flemeth 2.0, and maybe thats what she was all the time anyway.

"we believe what we want to bel- " meh

[Walina]

Something do bug me : how a child with the taint survive after being "posses" by archedemon and not a grey warden (adult) ?

I understand it's all because of Blood magic but I am sorry I would like more informations about since usually, blood magic is used to : have more power (Jowan), summon demon (Avernus and the last boss of Magic circle arc).

Though, I stick up with science that children have less chance to live than adults when they're sick.

That do really bug me :


Last comment : isn't the second time that you said it ended that way because the NPC (Riordan or Morrigan) didn't had the time to tell you ? :innocent:

Modifié par Walina, 20 novembre 2009 - 08:53 .

[Viconius]

I would just like to say that enjoyed the entire game very much, I haven't had this involving story telling role-playing game for a very long time. I do hope as far as Morrigan and player character is concerned, this is not the end of the book, but just an end of a chapter.



I also hope we do not have to wait years for the next chapter as there is the option of more episodic/DLC content now, hopefully concerning her and other companions.

[Driveninhifi]

Well, Morrigan does feel like the plot treats her differently than than other romance leads. Partially because you don't know what her motivations are and partially because she is a lynchpin of sorts. She comes back even if you send her away. To me, the plot feels like it was written to have her be the romantic interest - she is sort of the avatar of the world, after all, and you are its most influential denizen while you are playing.



If she is indeed acting on her own does make me wonder even more why she didn't take the PC with her.

[sylkwyrm1]

the child was barely concieved it had no soul yet, grey wardens die because they have a soul, two souls in one body = kablooey, darkspawn aparently have no souls so the archdemn can enterthem completely kablooey free, though it is interesting that clearly the archdemon -does- have a soul definately underlining it is not darkspawn but a tainted something else, old-god, high-dragon whatever

[mrao]

If she is indeed acting on her own does make me wonder even more why she didn't take the PC with her.

I'm guessing she does not want to be found. After killing the archdemon and surviving, the PC is basically a living legend.

Modifié par mrao, 20 novembre 2009 - 08:57 .