239 réponses à ce sujet

[mysticforce42]

David Gaider wrote...

sylkwyrm1 wrote...
if she was your friend she was trying to save you, if she was not your firend then you won by refusing, her plans came to naught she departs defeated, despite her smug grin

Indeed. I'll point out, as well, that while we *could* have allowed you the option of attacking Morrigan, do you really think you would just one-shot her and that would be it? Even if you wounded her she would just change into an animal and be out of there. The original cinematics had her changing into a bird and flying out the window. I can still hear you going "But but but--" and I get it. You wanted to kill her. But trying to say that just because we wanted to we should have allowed it, and that by not allowing it we've broken some kind of... what? Call it Plot Armor if you must, that's just how it was going down.

I find it interesting that someone comments it's all about Morrigan walking by you in that scene. Technically speaking it's the cinematics people who did that, because they felt it made her exit more dramatic. But because you didn't get to spit at her or whatever it removes all agency from the entire encounter? An interesting view, and something to consider, I guess.

Instead of going with a bird, just have her perform a Shatter Combo on the PC.

Plot Sledgehammer >>>>> Plot Armor any day :innocent:

[Taleroth]

Walina wrote...

Unortunally, yes you can't kill some npc because they will have some role in the futur.

Despite reports of one ending revealing her death, depending upon how you handle her personal quest.

[The Angry One]

Or simply you can't kill her because they made her Dragon Age's mascot, in a sense.

Therefore she's it's sacred cow.

Yes, I like that expression. Fitting.

[screwoffreg]

If you all keep complaining about the Morrigan romance ending next game they will just have your character be a eunuch who is incapable of emotion. That, or they can go the other extreme ala the Witcher and make your PC incapable of having a serious relationship but fully able to sleep with every living NPC in the world while collecting trading cards of their images when you do.

[Walina]

The Angry One wrote...

Or simply you can't kill her because they made her Dragon Age's mascot, in a sense.
Therefore she's it's sacred cow.
Yes, I like that expression. Fitting.

+ 1
Or, she will be your mother in DA 2 

[Driveninhifi]

screwoffreg wrote...

If you all keep complaining about the Morrigan romance ending next game they will just have your character be a eunuch who is incapable of emotion. That, or they can go the other extreme ala the Witcher and make your PC incapable of having a serious relationship but fully able to sleep with every living NPC in the world while collecting trading cards of their images when you do.

Don't give DANexus any ideas. You saw what happened to Oblivion, right?

[Taleroth]

screwoffreg wrote...

 That, or they can go the other extreme ala the Witcher and make your PC incapable of having a serious relationship but fully able to sleep with every living NPC in the world while collecting trading cards of their images when you do.

1) There was actually a choice between two characters for a serious relationship.
2) I'm okay with this.

[Naltair]

Driveninhifi wrote...

Naltair wrote...

I can see your point but I think at some point the story should take precedence over the need to just wipe someone's smug grin off. This is one of the limitations of a game where choice matters you want to have an impact on everything and sometimes for the integrity of the narrative certain events should come to pass.

I'd disagree. That's true for a book, but this medium is interactive and the game has been ALL about player choice until the end. The argument about the integrity of the narrative isn't a good one since Morrigan doesn't always have the kid and the PC can easily die at the end - which would both change/destroy the narrative the same way killing Morrigan does. I can appreciate a) the desire to not give the player EVERYTHING they want and the difficulty of adding every possible action the player can take. Killing Morrigan at the end seems like an obvious one though - perhaps it should be modded in. Not sure what that would do to your data if they read savegames for a sequel or expansion though.

I think you misconstrue my point, in no way am I saying maintaining the narrative must mean that Morrigan has the child. I just mean that you are nit picking one single moment in game when there are several numerous perhaps exhaustive moments where the player does not always have the option to do exactly what they feel they should be able to do. Another point is that obviously Morrigan is fairly important to the entirety of the narrative perhaps as a reoccuring character or a vital plot point; now that is the player’s choice.
 
But what I mean by integrity of the narrative is that certain events must take place for the game’s narrative to fit in with whatever the overall story is over the “saga” that is Dragon Age. We don’t know what that is yet, but it is heavily implied that this is only the start of something far larger and epic in scope. I have to agree with prior points that simply just killing Morrigan seems sort of out place for that particular scene but perhaps other players are more murderous and bloodthirsty than I am. I would say that shock and surprise and in the case of romance/friendship perhaps hurt feelings and anguish may be approriate but outright bloody violence seems extreme. 

It also seems a poor end for a well concieved character even if you hate her guts. She is complex and has complex motivations that we don’t fully understand. Her actions are consistent with her nature and goals and even if she is reluctant to act as she must she does what she believes is the right choice.   Just like the player acts to destroy the Circle of Magi, Choose a Dwarven Successor, or even just deciding to stay the course of righteousness as is their wont. I am susprised that people don’t see that, not every character has to be affected by the hero/heroine so much that they forego their beleifs and genuine natures. 

Back to the narrative I think there are moments we can all think of where we wish we had more options and choices. I love playing a lecherous good hearted rogue myself and I would have loved to have more chances to seduce more characters but I lived with what I had. As a story Dragon Age does a solid job creating a world where we have characters that we can somewhat genuinely care about and their fates. We feel connected to that story and feel that for the most part our choices matter even when some events are forced on us. Sometimes things must happen to keep the plot going, lest we have a string of unrelated events which is terribly uninteresting in the grand scheme of things. 

I say give the narrative time to grow before condemning one moment in what is shaping up to be quite the epic story.

As for why: say you are female, become queen and really jealous. Perhaps you don't want another bastard running around with this crazy witch woman. (Alistair's the only bastard allowed!)

That isn't a good reason why, I assume this is jest.

Modifié par Naltair, 20 novembre 2009 - 10:00 .

[mrao]

You're trying too hard to defend Morrigan and not hard enough to understand what a RPG is like.
Breathe, remember she's not a real person, and now try to imagine how many people with many different viewpoints and many different opinions would see in this situation.

There is plenty of evil to be seen in her proposition if you see her from some common viewpoints, and as such it's perfectly understandable why many people would like to kill her, for several different reasons.
She's also not really a paragon of virtue, so there is plenty of common viewpoints that would be very doubtful about what she intend to do with the child, especially considering she wants nobody but herself to have anything to do with him. The whole "it would be an Old God purged from the Taint" is also doubtful, the PC has only her word about it, and you should perhaps remember that not all PC are gonna romance nor die for her, many will despise or look down on her - how much does her word weight in this case ?

Not to mention the "I was being manipulated by this self-serving b*tch !" that tends to tick many people, or the "I'm tired to have her look down on me and then betraying me".

In other words : there is PLENTY of reasons to wish to kill her, some because of noble opinions, some because of much less nobles. And actually, there IS a choice in dialogue about killing her - except that the result is your PC crossing his/her arms and pouting while her walking smugly past him/her, which is precisely why the whole "Mary Sue" stuff stem from.

You said the offer was blackmail. All he said was that its NOT blackmail, because YOU agreed to die killing the archdemon when you finished the joining. It would be blackmail if Morrigan was forcing you in any way, but she doesn't. If you don't want to give her the baby, then just deal with either you or one of the other wardens dying. Obviously what Morrigans intentions are is open to argument, but that has nothing to do with the fact that her offer, was just an offer.

Modifié par mrao, 20 novembre 2009 - 09:58 .

[jango0520]

I wanted to romance Morrigan, her approval of me was 100% for the last whole half of the game. But..she doesn't swing that way *hangs head*.

[Walina]

screwoffreg wrote...

If you all keep complaining about the Morrigan romance ending next game they will just have your character be a eunuch who is incapable of emotion. That, or they can go the other extreme ala the Witcher and make your PC incapable of having a serious relationship but fully able to sleep with every living NPC in the world while collecting trading cards of their images when you do.

Just see the complains like a form of love, people love the game, they just want a fairer choices till the endings

[nkeever1978]

Infiltrator wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...

it was just about perfect, as long as theirs a sequel/expansion, classic cliff hanger in fact.

You can't typically continue where you left off in a sequel, even more so since the endings can potentially kill your character.

So this cliffhanger is left to hang and never be answered, which was quite disappointing.

The child could be the player character in the sequal 20-30 years in the future. 

[The Angry One]

mrao wrote...

You said the offer was blackmail. All he said was that its NOT blackmail, because YOU agreed to die killing the archdemon when you finished the joining.

How do you agree to something you are unaware of?

[Naltair]

David Gaider wrote...

sylkwyrm1 wrote...
if she was your friend she was trying to save you, if she was not your firend then you won by refusing, her plans came to naught she departs defeated, despite her smug grin

Indeed. I'll point out, as well, that while we *could* have allowed you the option of attacking Morrigan, do you really think you would just one-shot her and that would be it? Even if you wounded her she would just change into an animal and be out of there. The original cinematics had her changing into a bird and flying out the window. I can still hear you going "But but but--" and I get it. You wanted to kill her. But trying to say that just because we wanted to we should have allowed it, and that by not allowing it we've broken some kind of... what? Call it Plot Armor if you must, that's just how it was going down.

I find it interesting that someone comments it's all about Morrigan walking by you in that scene. Technically speaking it's the cinematics people who did that, because they felt it made her exit more dramatic. But because you didn't get to spit at her or whatever it removes all agency from the entire encounter? An interesting view, and something to consider, I guess.

I agree with your sentiment at some point this is your story and you should do what you need to to make sure it proceeds in a somewhat decent manner. 

Back to RPG aside, if we take the classic table top view yes a DM should make sure his players have impact and say but that is a two way street and it is the DM/GM's job that the narrative makes sense if that is their goal for that session/game.  Sometimes that demands doing that, and players should understand that.

Of course if you just want to murder her becasue you feel you must then well I can't help you.

Modifié par Naltair, 20 novembre 2009 - 10:04 .

[screwoffreg]

Walina wrote...


Just see the complains like a form of love, people love the game, they just want a fairer choices till the endings

I know, I was half-kidding.  I think it is a credit to Bioware's writers that a character can incite so much emotional reaction.  I also think they realize that it would be the ultimate jerk move to completely let the story die on the vine, so to speak, so I have faith one way or the other we will get to see our characters finish the romances/friendships regardless of whether it is Morrigan, Leilana, or, thanks to DANexus, the forthcoming Dog romance.

Modifié par screwoffreg, 20 novembre 2009 - 10:11 .

[Naltair]

Sandal Romance please.



Player: I think I love you...



Sandal: Enchantment!



Player: You say the sweetest things.



Sandal: We left Orzammar.



Player: Awwwe.

[The Angry One]

Naltair wrote...

Sandal Romance please.

Player: I think I love you...

Sandal: Enchantment!

Player: You say the sweetest things.

Sandal: We left Orzammar.

Player: Awwwe.

The sad thing is, somebody, somewhere, is going to make that happen.

[MoSa09]

nice thread here, just found it, you also got the Lead writer to become involved <_<

I  just want to make it short here, as this discussion is rather diverse and just throwing some randon thoughts in would not make that much sense to me. I would simply like to invite all who are interested in the Morrigan question to join our group (some of you people here i already recognize as fellow members. We have created quite an active group concerning the sad ending with her and our thoughts about it, and im gonna invite anyone who has interest to join and participate:

http://social.biowar.../&v=discussions

Of course, all haters are also invited, but be warned, we are a fan group, so you face an overwhelming opposition. <_<

Let me make something clear in the end. I, as a lover of her character and her story, can also see the point the haters make. Moreover, i am happy that David said here that a future story don't have to be exclusively about her. As much as i would like to know more about her and continue the romance, this future story is for everyone. So i truly hope that she will not be the main hook of the plot (thx David for indicating this, although i am not sure how much you can be trusted at the moment when nothing is official ), but a future game/dlc should be equally fair to the decisions of all players, and the haters,  the lovers and all of those who are indifferent to her deserve a fair continuation, and that won't do if Morrigan and one special ending will be the main plot hook.  Each one should continue the way he/she likes and the way he/she started: the lovers might get their romance, she haters their kill and those indifferent whatever they want. Wow, this has been longer than i intend it to be, hope that these notes are not just too random for your discussion, just wanted to say that not all her fans who would like her to be romanced in a future story are like "screw all others if they chose the wrong ending".
Anyway, join us if you like, otherwise accept my apologies for disturbing your discussion here

[Taleroth]

The Angry One wrote...

Naltair wrote...

Sandal Romance please.

Player: I think I love you...

Sandal: Enchantment!

Player: You say the sweetest things.

Sandal: We left Orzammar.

Player: Awwwe.

The sad thing is, somebody, somewhere, is going to make that happen.

I fail to see the sad thing.  It should be DLC.  I'd buy it.

[mrao]

The Angry One wrote...

mrao wrote...

You said the offer was blackmail. All he said was that its NOT blackmail, because YOU agreed to die killing the archdemon when you finished the joining.

How do you agree to something you are unaware of?

Thats a good point, and I forgot that you  don't find out until near the end. I suppose when i watched the joining I just assumed that all Grey Wardens would be expected to sacrifice themselves to defeat the darkspawn, though not in that specific way. But Morrigans offer is still not blackmail in any way. Its not her fault that someone has to die killing the archdemon, and she just offers a way out of that.

Modifié par mrao, 20 novembre 2009 - 10:10 .

[ReubenLiew]

The Angry One wrote...

mrao wrote...

You said the offer was blackmail. All he said was that its NOT blackmail, because YOU agreed to die killing the archdemon when you finished the joining.

How do you agree to something you are unaware of?

The same way the PC agreed on drinking poison that COULD kill you when you agreed to join the Grey Wardens. Grey Warden's don't need your pre-approved knowledge of anything, they simply assume that you will. Becuase if you will not, well, Ser Jory is a perfectly good example of why not.

[screwoffreg]

Also, to put a bit of fear into Bioware, if they fail to resolve the romance they will forever face the "Aeris" Final Fantasy VII syndrome where players will constantly harass the company, dress as Morrigan, search the games code for ways to "resurrect" Morrigan, start conspiracy websites how Morrigan was cut because of "lazy developers" and ultimately lead to anime hentai fanfiction involving Morrigan and other characters. Be aware!!!

[Naltair]

I always saw Morrigan's deal as a way out of a bad situation. Not everyone wants to die for their cause, I know I don't. I prefer my enemies to die for their causes.

[mrao]

ultimately lead to anime hentai fanfiction involving Morrigan and other characters. Be aware!!!

I wouldn't be surprised if this has already happened.

[Walina]

Naltair wrote...

I always saw Morrigan's deal as a way out of a bad situation. Not everyone wants to die for their cause, I know I don't. I prefer my enemies to die for their causes.

+1 but can't have good ending i I chose Loghain