239 réponses à ce sujet

[Akka le Vil]

David Gaider wrote...

Indeed. I'll point out, as well, that while we *could* have allowed you the option of attacking Morrigan, do you really think you would just one-shot her and that would be it? Even if you wounded her she would just change into an animal and be out of there. The original cinematics had her changing into a bird and flying out the window. I can still hear you going "But but but--" and I get it. You wanted to kill her. But trying to say that just because we wanted to we should have allowed it, and that by not allowing it we've broken some kind of... what? Call it Plot Armor if you must, that's just how it was going down.

It's not just a "I want to kill her so I should !". I resent a little to have my long-winded explanations being reduced to that - but then I suppose you resented being accused of Marysuism, so I guess it makes us even

The problem isn't so much that I can't kill her, than that I can't even attempt to.
Wanting to kill her is an obvious "path" I'd say - that is, a decision that a sizable amount of persons could reasonably chose. There IS reasons to take large offense about her proposition, for a large amount of roleplaying directions. It's not just a sociopathic erratic spike.
Plot Armor is extremely annoying and should be reserved only for case it's really required, but at least even Plot Armor recognize the decision of the character - he will not succeed, but at least he can try. I can't even try to get at Morrigan, even after threatening her with death.
I would have MUCH prefered to have a fight (or a cutscene about a fight, or even a cutscene about how I try to kill her) and her fleeing, wounded - bonus points if she actually treats it seriously, and not as if she KNOWS that nothing can happen to her. At least I would have feel like the game recognized my opinion in this case.
Yes, the Plot Armor would have annoyed me, but I would have had the satisfaction of actually doing what's "in character" at this time - it's NOT in-character to stand idly while the person you wish to kill just walk past by, and that there is no compelling reason not to rush at her throat.

Anora Plot Armor was utterly annoying (I still foam at the mouth when she appears on screen), but at least it was logical. Morrigan untouchability feels just completely arbitrary - hence the "Suish".

I find it interesting that someone comments it's all about Morrigan walking by you in that scene. Technically speaking it's the cinematics people who did that, because they felt it made her exit more dramatic. But because you didn't get to spit at her or whatever it removes all agency from the entire encounter? An interesting view, and something to consider, I guess.

It works relatively well from the point of view of two friends separating, Morrigan obviously a bit sad and the PC stone-faced - that was actually one of my walkthrough, and I find it fitting, it's not like I just wish to kill her every second of my playthrough or that I'm in a special crusade to get her.
But it is just bogus when the PC is supposed to be VERY mad at her and she just walk past with a smug smile.
Seriously, yes, it removes all the rising tension of the scene when it ends up with such a "flop". One second you're ready to jump on her and tear her apart, and the next you're going in "angry child pouting and doing nothing". Do you really think that it works well ?

Modifié par Akka le Vil, 20 novembre 2009 - 10:40 .

[The Angry One]

It is however opportunism of the worst kind.

Bah, personally I would've gone to look for Avernus, I'm sure he could've come up with a way to preserve our lives without involving devil-children into the mix!
(Yes David I'm saying you should have written that option in just to please me as there's no possible way I could say this in jest or anything ).

[Gaspara]

One of the big themes of the game is moral ambiguity and difficult choices. Once you know that a gray warden has to die, the choice is "Who will it be? Me? or Another?", but when Morrigan makes her offer, it is a way of upping the stakes story-wise by giving you greater choice at a greater cost - which is kind of the whole point of the game.

The Rhiordan (sp?)/Morrigan sequence with the two revelations quickly following each other were, to me, powerful and effective not only on a purely mechanical choice level (Do I want my character to live, and at what price), but also on the level of the emotional response it might cause depending on how you felt about Morrigan.

Somehow I think adding the option to just hit everyone over the head with a sword whenever a difficult choice come up in the story short circuits the entire point of the games main theme: Making difficult choices.

Modifié par Gaspara, 20 novembre 2009 - 10:18 .

[Walina]

The Angry One wrote...

It is however opportunism of the worst kind.

Bah, personally I would've gone to look for Avernus, I'm sure he could've come up with a way to preserve our lives without involving devil-children into the mix!
(Yes David I'm saying you should have written that option in just to please me as there's no possible way I could say this in jest or anything ).

Again, i will have done the same

[Naltair]

Gaspara wrote...

Somehow I think adding the option to just hit everyone over the head with a sword whenever a difficult choice short circuits the entire point of the games main theme: Making difficult choices.

I pray that you bring sanity back to the senate.

Meaning I agree.

[screwoffreg]

mrao wrote...

ultimately lead to anime hentai fanfiction involving Morrigan and other characters. Be aware!!!

I wouldn't be surprised if this has already happened.

I don't think Bioware is ready for a new kind of fandom they aren't used to. It isn't just PC gamers anymore, but many console gamers have taken to this game and its story.  Beware the legions of Anime...for they are without end.

[The Angry One]

Meh I'd wager that if you say the words "Morrigan hentai" to people, they'll be thinking of someone else.

[Stakis]

i just wish we can pick up the story and find her, the end was well... short, theres to many answers left, im not looking for a farm and 10 kids thats not morrigan, but even a powerfull witch carrying a child is bound to get into some problems in a world like dragon age , not to mention flemeth could be already on her tail, anyway i truly hope bioware makes DLC or xpacs to move the story foward with our characters,im tired of one shot heros in RPGs.

[ReubenLiew]

Heh, there's definitely plenty of Morrigan hentai already.

Just not the Morrigan we're thinking of.



What I want to see a continuation of is the God-kid vs the Superman kid.

Could you imagine the sheer awesomeness of that battle? It'll make the archdemon fight look like two toddlers slapping each other.

[Akka le Vil]

mrao wrote...

You said the offer was blackmail. All he said was that its NOT blackmail, because YOU agreed to die killing the archdemon when you finished the joining. It would be blackmail if Morrigan was forcing you in any way, but she doesn't. If you don't want to give her the baby, then just deal with either you or one of the other wardens dying. Obviously what Morrigans intentions are is open to argument, but that has nothing to do with the fact that her offer, was just an offer.

Yes, the "blackmail" was technically untrue. I was using it just to show how some character might have FELT it. It was a way to drive home the point that for some characters it's an offer to save your life, for others it's just an attempt to use leverage to further her ends.
Again : remember, her and the PC can be on less than cordial term, and it colours the offer in a pretty different light.

Now, the real reason why my character wanted to kill her was because he disliked to be manipulated, and more importantly, because he saw someone that always showed how much she wanted power and didn't care about others, trying to get for herself the power of an Archdemon/Old God. That's simply a Too Dangerous B*tch To Let Live.

But that's not really the point. The point is more in the lack of actual consequences depending on radically different choices and states of mind.

As a general note, I didn't thought it would be so incredibly hard to convey the opinion that "if my char wishes to kill her, it looks really silly that he would wait motionless while the person he wants to kill basically show him the fingher and walk away". It seemed pretty obvious to me, and yet I just see many answers (not yours, though) that completely miss the point and mix "the scene doesn't work and the choice isn't taken into account" with different points.

Modifié par Akka le Vil, 20 novembre 2009 - 10:30 .

[The Angry One]

ReubenLiew wrote...

What I want to see a continuation of is the God-kid vs the Superman kid.
Could you imagine the sheer awesomeness of that battle? It'll make the archdemon fight look like two toddlers slapping each other.

"What-ho, Ser Superman is here to fight yon villainy."

[screwoffreg]

Anyway, forget this Morrigan stuff.  I was MOST dissapointed there was no Ser Cautherine romance option.  A woman who ambushes and tries to kill you twice?  Morrigan has nothing on that!!!

[ShifteBoy]

Hum. I really liked the ending. I followed the Morrigan romance, and I appreciated the way it finished. It wasn't happy, but it was fitting. When Alistair asked what I'd do, I said; "I'm going to find Morrigan."

I like the idea that in a future game my character will try to find the woman he loves. I'm hoping Bioware, at some point, allow for that potential player ending to become resolved. It's fine that it wasn't resolved in this game - it makes it a lot more interesting that the side story can cross to sequels. Think of it as a book - a story that is set to continue further. This is the first of a series (hopefully), and we need something to care about in the next adventure

Of course, I am a little worried that any future Morrigan appearances will be hostile by default, as most characters likely didn't become friends with her. I suppose only Bioware know whether or not they'll offer something slightly different for those that went down that path, and I doubt they'd tell us for a while yet!

Modifié par ShifteBoy, 20 novembre 2009 - 10:40 .

[Gaspara]

Akka le Vil wrote...

mrao wrote...

You said the offer was blackmail. All he said was that its NOT blackmail, because YOU agreed to die killing the archdemon when you finished the joining. It would be blackmail if Morrigan was forcing you in any way, but she doesn't. If you don't want to give her the baby, then just deal with either you or one of the other wardens dying. Obviously what Morrigans intentions are is open to argument, but that has nothing to do with the fact that her offer, was just an offer.

Yes, the "blackmail" was technically untrue. I was using it just to show how some character might have FELT it. It was a way to drive home the point that for some characters it's an offer to save your life, for others it's just an attempt to use leverage to further her ends.
Again : remember, her and the PC can be on less than cordial term, and it colours the offer in a pretty different light.

Now, the real reason why my character wanted to kill her was because he disliked to be manipulated, and more importantly, because he saw someone that always showed how much she wanted power and didn't care about others, trying to get for herself the power of an Archdemon/Old God. That's simply a Too Dangerous B*tch To Let Live.

But that's not really the point. The point is more in the lack of actual consequences depending on radically different choices and states of mind.

As a general note, I didn't thought it would be so incredibly hard to convey the opinion that "if my char wishes to kill her, it looks really silly that he would wait motionless while the person he wants to kill basically show him the fingher and walk away". It seemed pretty obvious to me, and yet I just see many answers (not yours, though) that completely miss the point and mix "the scene doesn't work and the choice isn't taken into account" with different points.

Clearly you are not getting the whole "Difficult Choices" theme that the entire game is based on. 

Adding the option to kill Morrigan would have added nothing to the game other than essentially giving you a second way to say "No", and not a terribly subtle or intereting one at that.

[Akka le Vil]

Gaspara wrote...

Clearly you are not getting the whole "Difficult Choices" theme that the entire game is based on. 

Adding the option to kill Morrigan would have added nothing to the game other than essentially giving you a second way to say "No", and not a terribly subtle or intereting one at that.

Clearly you're not getting the whole "roleplaying" theme of the whole game, nor even my point.
Maybe you should re-read the last paragraph you quoted, I wrote it especially for people like you.

As a side-note, trying to kill her is just a variation of the "no, I won't lay with you" choice, so your answer is nonsensical, as the choice has not been avoided, it has been made. It's just that, just like it logically should, different characters will not react the same, and the violent option is present enough in the whole game to be a logical one here.

Modifié par Akka le Vil, 20 novembre 2009 - 10:44 .

[ReubenLiew]

The Angry One wrote...

ReubenLiew wrote...

What I want to see a continuation of is the God-kid vs the Superman kid.
Could you imagine the sheer awesomeness of that battle? It'll make the archdemon fight look like two toddlers slapping each other.

"What-ho, Ser Superman is here to fight yon villainy."

That... that wins so much... internets...
So many silly ideas forming in head now.

[KillSALGo]

First off, Morrigan is great, well-written and I think really stays true to her character. I notice that people seem to forget that this is an "epic, dark fantasy RPG." RPG being the kicker. There's a reason Bioware hires writers. To tell a story. This is not The Sims.



I'm super drawn in to the world they created, and can't wait to see what's in store for the sequel. I just hope it doesn't take 4+ years to get here.

[screwoffreg]

Gaspara wrote...


Clearly you are not getting the whole "Difficult Choices" theme that the entire game is based on. 

Adding the option to kill Morrigan would have added nothing to the game other than essentially giving you a second way to say "No", and not a terribly subtle or intereting one at that.

I think this brings up one issue that I had not thought of.  You never really see your character express any emotion at all to the events in the game barring the one cutscene where he/she watches Riordan plunge to his death.  It was actually a fairly powerful scene considering your character's usually stern and severe nature.  Even during romance scenes you find your PC usually keeps their arms crossed.  If nothing else it would be good to see in future games your character be a bit more animated.  If someone you loved was about to walk out on you I would imagine you would look at them more than with just a mere arm crossing.

[Taleroth]

Gaspara wrote...

Clearly you are not getting the whole "Difficult Choices" theme that the entire game is based on. 

I actually created a thread on this already, but to sum it up:  There's not really a wealth of difficult choices in this game.  There's a handful only, hardly a giant theme of the game.  Most major quests have an ideal path.

The most difficult choice in the game is basically the Dwarven King for 2nd playthrough metagaming RPers.

[EatinMcRib]

The Angry One wrote...

Naltair wrote...

Sandal Romance please.

Player: I think I love you...

Sandal: Enchantment!

Player: You say the sweetest things.

Sandal: We left Orzammar.

Player: Awwwe.

The sad thing is, somebody, somewhere, is going to make that happen.

I'd buy that for a dollar!

[Gaspara]

Akka le Vil wrote...

Gaspara wrote...

Clearly you are not getting the whole "Difficult Choices" theme that the entire game is based on. 

Adding the option to kill Morrigan would have added nothing to the game other than essentially giving you a second way to say "No", and not a terribly subtle or intereting one at that.

Clearly you're not getting the whole "roleplaying" theme of the whole game, nor even my point.
Maybe you should re-read the last paragraph, I wrote it especially for people like you.

Your joke kind of fell flat there.

I read the entire thing. I was not impressed.

The point of limiting some options is to lead the character/player into painful, sometimes difficult places where their first gut reaction may not be an option. They are not letting you have the easy way out. It is a gamble for any game - especially a game that is based on these type of choices cropping up a great deal - and one of the worries I'm sure they had was making players feel they didnt' have enough choices.

If you didn't like the game or the sequence, it doesn't really matter to me. It just seems that you are missing the point of the game which is NOT to allow you to do anything you want, but to put you in situations where simplistic solutions are not really an option.

If that type fo game offends or frustrates you, well.... you have a choice, don't you?

[Driveninhifi]

Naltair wrote...

Killing and death stuff I'm cutting for spaaaaace

Well, yes I said it in jest, but plenty of people historically have done worse things to ensure their heritage maintains the throne.
However, I think you are project a bit of your thoughts onto everyone else's PC. You are right - Bioware can't provide every single option for the player and that quickly devolves to infinity. I don't think it is fair to say it's not valid to have a character wish to kill her for her betrayal. It is a roleplaying game and that could be a legit reaction from a character that's a real bastard. Probably wouldn't be too hard for some enterprising soul to mod in and cut some of the complaints out.

[MoSa09]

Taleroth wrote...

Gaspara wrote...

Clearly you are not getting the whole "Difficult Choices" theme that the entire game is based on. 

I actually created a thread on this already, but to sum it up:  There's not really a wealth of difficult choices in this game.  There's a handful only, hardly a giant theme of the game.  Most major quests have an ideal path.

The most difficult choice in the game is basically the Dwarven King for 2nd playthrough metagaming RPers.

I believe every major quest has difficult choices to be made: do you kill Lady Isolde to rescue her son, or do you kill Connor; do you side with the elves or with the werewolves; do you side with the Andraste cult or not; do you poison her ash or not; do you kill Loghain or not; whom do you choose to become king; Alistair or Anora?

There are so many difficult decisions where it's not initially clear which decision will be right that i would say they are a major port of the plot, not to even mention if you take Morrigans offer or turn her down...

[Gaspara]

Taleroth wrote...

Gaspara wrote...

Clearly you are not getting the whole "Difficult Choices" theme that the entire game is based on. 

I actually created a thread on this already, but to sum it up:  There's not really a wealth of difficult choices in this game.  There's a handful only, hardly a giant theme of the game.  Most major quests have an ideal path.

The most difficult choice in the game is basically the Dwarven King for 2nd playthrough metagaming RPers.

Saying that a game is based around difficult choices and saying that it has a "wealth" of such choices is two different things. I stated the first, not the second.

The game puts difficult choices in the path of the character usualy near the resolution. There are only a few really big stories/resolutions here. The idea is to focus on quality, rather than quantity.

[Taleroth]

MoSa09 wrote...

I believe every major quest has difficult choices to be made: do you kill Lady Isolde to rescue her son, or do you kill Connor;

You can save both.

do you side with the elves or with the werewolves;

You can save both.

 do you side with the Andraste cult or not; do you poison her ash or not;

Not a difficult choice, they are obviously murderers.
 

do you kill Loghain or not; whom do you choose to become king; Alistair or Anora?

Loghain qualifies.  Alistair/Anora tends to follow from that.  Though you can have both Alistair AND Anora.

Gaspara wrote...

Saying that a game is based around difficult choices and saying that it has a "wealth" of such choices is two different things. I stated the first, not the second.

The game puts difficult choices in the path of the character usualy near the resolution. There are only a few really big stories/resolutions here. The idea is to focus on quality, rather than quantity.

  If a game has more, yet significant, easy choices, you cannot claim it is based around difficult choices.  The ones it does have are no more quality than the times it fails to have them.

The game has a lot of potential for difficult choices, but often skips committing to them them in favor of letting the player seek their preferred outcome of choice.  Not always, but the times it does go with easy choices are no lesser cirumstances to be ignored.

Modifié par Taleroth, 20 novembre 2009 - 11:02 .