1373 réponses à ce sujet

[DragonRageGT]

JakePT wrote...

Luke Barrett wrote...

In Exile wrote...

I just want to echo this sentiment, with respect to the potential of DAII. It could have been brilliant. But it wasn't.

For me, this was the first Bioware misstep. I'll still be onboard for DLC and DAIII. But there needs to be a higher standard. This thread was a great first step. Now, there needs to be content that follows up on the promises here. A substantive show that DAIII and DAII DLC will be better.

If it helps at all, I've got a long list of items that I made entirely from forum feedback that I check new content against when I'm working with it. Basically, I want to make sure everything we touch going forward meets and exceeds community expectations on all fronts. I'm sure the higher-ups have similar lists when they are dealing with the macro of it all (I deal primarily in micro)

Just don't go overboard. I think some of the flaws of both DA2 and ME2 were because of an overreaction to feedback, not ignoring it.

"The inventory is kind of crappy, and the RPG elements are hard to understand."
"Ok, GONE!"

"Combat's a bit slow, why do they shuffle along in the middle of a fight?"
"Ok, how about you leap ENORMOUS distances and slide along the ground in an instant and people are sprinting all over the place and teleporting so fast you can't even see what's happening, and if you do hit them they EXPLODE!!"

The solution to shuffling in combat in DA2 seemed to be to change the entire physics of the universe in a way that didn't gel well with the story, which was even more realistic and grounded than DA:Os. The kind of world that Gaider et al. created and the stories they're telling in it require a more grounded approach to combat. That doesn't mean shuffling and unreponsiveness, but it certainly doesn't mean flying through the air and enemies exploding.

We obviously want you to take feedback into account, but don't compromise your artistic integrity to do so. Take feedback into account, but stay true to what Dragon Age is supposed to be.

And Metrix. Do not take them that seriously. I'd say that over 50% of people who buy games don't go to forums and don't leave "send feedback " active, unless it is default and hidden.

[upsettingshorts]

RageGT wrote...

And Metrix. Do not take them that seriously. I'd say that over 50% of people who buy games don't go to forums and don't leave "send feedback " active, unless it is default and hidden.

It is default.  And buried in the options. 

BioWare knows how many copies of their game have been sold and registered, they can compare that to the number of metrics they get and get a good idea of what kind of sample size they're getting.

At least, a much better idea than us - who have to guess percentages based on nothing other than our own gut feelings.

[mesmerizedish]

v_ware wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Dragon Age 2 is my favorite BioWare RPG, and I say this despite the fact that I believe it has some serious flaws.

Remember when I said different people want different things? A game that is everything you want won't be a game that is everything I want.

Why should BioWare cater to your wants over mine?

I'm prettier.

Dragon Age 2 is the lowest rated Bioware game in a very long time. Just stating the facts honey.

Only I get to call Maria honey.

DAII is not my favorite BioWare RPG, but it is my second-favorite, and Origins is not my favorite. It is a fact that DAII is their lowest-rated game in while. It is not a fact that it is their worst.

[Droma]

v_ware wrote...

General Malor wrote...

v_ware wrote...
Dragon Age 2 is the lowest rated Bioware game in a very long time. Just stating the facts honey.

I think a key fact you're forgetting is that your opinion only matters to you, should people choose to fell such.

Another fact: People who like something aren't going to change their mind because someone else didn't.

... I know, shocking right. 

Again. Bioware should cater to the overall opinion. And the fact that DA2 is the lowest rated Biogame in a long time means most changes weren't for the better. 

you are missinterpreting statistics. the problem with all the user scores and stuff is that more people who dislike the game write a review over their dissapointment, then people who like the game do. the average person has >2 legs, because there are to few 3 leggis to push the statistic in the opposite direction. that doesn't mean that the majority of humanity has 1 leg. with the reviews it comes down to that point in some way.

Modifié par Droma, 27 mai 2011 - 08:00 .

[v_ware]

Droma wrote...

v_ware wrote...

General Malor wrote...

v_ware wrote...
Dragon Age 2 is the lowest rated Bioware game in a very long time. Just stating the facts honey.

I think a key fact you're forgetting is that your opinion only matters to you, should people choose to fell such.

Another fact: People who like something aren't going to change their mind because someone else didn't.

... I know, shocking right. 

Again. Bioware should cater to the overall opinion. And the fact that DA2 is the lowest rated Biogame in a long time means most changes weren't for the better. 

you are missinterpreting statistics. the problem with all the user scores and stuff is that more people who dislike the game write a review over their dissapointment, then people who like the game do. the average person has >2 legs, because there are to few 3 leggis to push the statistic in the opposite direction. that doesn't mean that the majority of humanity has 1 leg. with the reviews it comes down to that point in some way.

How 'bout professional reviews.

[v_ware]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

v_ware wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Dragon Age 2 is my favorite BioWare RPG, and I say this despite the fact that I believe it has some serious flaws.

Remember when I said different people want different things? A game that is everything you want won't be a game that is everything I want.

Why should BioWare cater to your wants over mine?

I'm prettier.

Dragon Age 2 is the lowest rated Bioware game in a very long time. Just stating the facts honey.

Only I get to call Maria honey.

DAII is not my favorite BioWare RPG, but it is my second-favorite, and Origins is not my favorite. It is a fact that DAII is their lowest-rated game in while. It is not a fact that it is their worst.

We still got that Sonic and ME portable disaster. But I don't consider those AAA Bioware games. And I don't think anybody should...

Modifié par v_ware, 27 mai 2011 - 08:06 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Luke Barrett wrote...

A good example is the quick line I saw about flavor text on items in this thread - I've seen this pop up a few times elsewhere and I think it's a valid point which I will *attempt* to escalate through the appropriate channels.

An attempt is still worth a hearty cheer.

[mesmerizedish]

v_ware wrote...

We still got that Sonic and ME portable disaster. But I don't consider those AAA Bioware games.

My point is that reviews are not objective evaluations of merit and quality. They're subjective opinions. They are useful, yes.

But since I believe that DAII is better than Mass Effect, and maybe even ME2, that it's lower-rated than either of those games becomes less meaningful (not meaningless, of course). And I certainly think it's the most fun game BioWare have made, though ME2 is a close second.

[v_ware]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...
My point is that reviews are not objective evaluations of merit and quality. They're subjective opinions. They are useful, yes.

But since I believe that DAII is better than Mass Effect, and maybe even ME2, that it's lower-rated than either of those games becomes less meaningful (not meaningless, of course). And I certainly think it's the most fun game BioWare have made, though ME2 is a close second.

First time I heard anybody say DA2 is better then ME. (I just died a little on the inside)

And you forget the thing that is intersubjectivity. If you let something (DA2) get experienced and reviewed by lot's of people you come closer and closer to objectivity.

Modifié par v_ware, 27 mai 2011 - 08:17 .

[mesmerizedish]

v_ware wrote...

First time I heard anybody say DA2 is better then ME. (I just died a little on the inside)

And you forget the thing that is intersubjectivity. If you let a phenomenon (DA2) get experienced and reviewed by lot's of people you come closer and closer to objectivity.

I thought the first Mass Effect was a rather poor game. Clearly, that's how you feel about DAII  Different people are different.

Yes, which is why I said that reviews are still useful. But no matter how many people say something is good or bad, it's not the truth that something is good or bad. Planes, Trains, and Automobiles has over 90% on RottenTomatoes, but I think it's one of the worst films ever made. Similarly, Titanic and Avatar, the highest-grossing films ever made, were nothing more than average.

There's no such thing as objectivity when it comes to preference. The closest thing is popularity.

[upsettingshorts]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Planes, Trains, and Automobiles has over 90% on RottenTomatoes, but I think it's one of the worst films ever made.

Get out.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 27 mai 2011 - 08:20 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

In Exile wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

It is of no use to have a discussion here about whether the game is great or not. This thread was started because a lot of users felt that it wasn't that good and Mr Laidlaw felt that it was time to address them after he got over some emotional problems related to that. It's nice to show your support for BW, but it is of no use. The issues involved are now well know. Mr Laidlaw even said that he will address those issues in the next game. He named some of them and said that others will be investigated. If you believe him is another question. But what are you guys fighting about then?

Like I said. I would like to see what changes are made for DLC and announced for DAIII, down the line.

I wrote that because I saw that people were fighting about whether the game was great or not. Obviously that now is a non-issue, for the reasons mentioned above. That was the point of my post.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 27 mai 2011 - 08:27 .

[v_ware]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

v_ware wrote...

First time I heard anybody say DA2 is better then ME. (I just died a little on the inside)

And you forget the thing that is intersubjectivity. If you let a phenomenon (DA2) get experienced and reviewed by lot's of people you come closer and closer to objectivity.

I thought the first Mass Effect was a rather poor game. Clearly, that's how you feel about DAII  Different people are different.

Yes, which is why I said that reviews are still useful. But no matter how many people say something is good or bad, it's not the truth that something is good or bad. Planes, Trains, and Automobiles has over 90% on RottenTomatoes, but I think it's one of the worst films ever made. Similarly, Titanic and Avatar, the highest-grossing films ever made, were nothing more than average.

There's no such thing as objectivity when it comes to preference. The closest thing is popularity.

All right. First picking on ME and now on Planes, Trains and Automobiles. Ugh... I don't even... I mean seriously? I wanna say awful things to you...

It's not the truth, but intersubjectivity is the closest thing to truth. And now I'm done talking to you before I have a cerebral hemorrhage.

Modifié par v_ware, 27 mai 2011 - 08:31 .

[mesmerizedish]

And we were getting along so well

[v_ware]

Filament wrote...

v_ware wrote...

And the fact that DA2 is the lowest rated Biogame in a long time means most changes weren't for the better.

That second part is merely your analysis of the fact, not a fact in and of itself. One could alternatively conclude that most of the changes were fine, but the lacking execution of said changes, the overall rushed nature of the product, and the few changes that may indeed have been misguided were what caused the lower overall score. Among other explanations, I would imagine. Of course, mine is the correct one.

Rushjob is a change from DAO.

[Darth Krytie]

I hope the vitriol doesn't keep you away permanently. I really enjoyed both Origins and DA2 (as well as most Bioware titles) I appreciate this response and for keeping me intrigued until the long, long wait for new material is over.

Modifié par Darth Krytie, 27 mai 2011 - 08:48 .

[Esbatty]

v_ware wrote...

Filament wrote...

v_ware wrote...

And the fact that DA2 is the lowest rated Biogame in a long time means most changes weren't for the better.

That second part is merely your analysis of the fact, not a fact in and of itself. One could alternatively conclude that most of the changes were fine, but the lacking execution of said changes, the overall rushed nature of the product, and the few changes that may indeed have been misguided were what caused the lower overall score. Among other explanations, I would imagine. Of course, mine is the correct one.

Rushjob is a change from DAO.

I had a rushjob once, man... wait this is a family forum.

...

I'll be back in 20 minutes, headin' to 4chan.

[Kerethos]

It's nice to hear that the feedback has been taken into account for the future, and to see some of my main concerns being listed by Mr. Laidlaw. A lot less level re-use, making the waves spawn in a credible manner (no more "banditrain" please) and bigger choices next time around would be welcome. Also big on my list of don't like, beyond those, would be the teleporting mages (because it goes unexplained).

I still think DA2 is a good and quite enjoyable game that it does a whole lot of things that I really like - which is why I'm still playing it and will likely end up completing it another 2-3 times, before I give it a rest.

[Maria Caliban]

v_ware wrote...

It's not the truth, but intersubjectivity is the closest thing to truth.

No, it's not. That lots of people believe a thing to be true doesn't make it more or less true. Truth is not a popularity contest.

[Gotholhorakh]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Hey guys and gals,

As some of you have noted, I have been absent from these forums for a time, and my apologies for going dark, but I did not feel prepared to deal with some of the more personal attacks in a professional manner. And as a rule if I don't feel like I'm going to be professional, I don't post. You guys deserve better than that.

Now, while I haven't been posting, we have been listening.

Hi, those are gorgeous pictures, but now I can see the whites of your eyes I am going to risk blurting this out.

Firstly, thank you for taking the time to acknowledge our concerns in a thoughtful way. It seems like it has been a very long time coming. I sense a certain amount of sticking to your guns in your post, but OK, now we are able to tread warily and let stuff rest on its own merits rather than go into it having preordered a sequel etc. so we'll have to wait and see what actually happens.

I feel that people have probably, as a community at large, lambasted and dissected the game fairly but quite mercilessly sometimes, seeing it as a complete departure from what they wanted to see - I've been part of that without any doubt (notwithstanding that lots of people in the community enjoyed the game, I don't want to do them or you a disservice).

This is because we give a flying stab at a ring donut about:

• whether the game is good (insofar as any of us can judge)
• the characters and universe you have crafted
• (for some of us because we're weird fans) whether you do well.

I hope that you have taken notice of the concerns, because I want to see that gold standard again from you for purely selfish reasons - if there's one thing we all need in the coming times it's good escapism - but we'll see.

Wary of putting words in your mouth, but you seem to get that in wisely "going dark" but still being quoted here and there, the perception has arisen that people are being dismissed, perhaps with the suggestion that if you don't like the game you're a troll, or in some way mentally impaired. I hope you understand this makes people snarky when their purchase is non-refundable, human beings will feel slighted and sleighted all too readily, when you have their cash and they're not satisfied.

Whether these perceptions are right or wrong, some evidence is now arising of natural on-a-level communication and I hope we can all embrace that as a better way forward than nerdrage or stonewalling - down with that sort of thing.

Now that you seem to be listening, I'd like to say that while the changes could easily shoehorn me away from DA games, I'm truly sorry that your no doubt herculean efforts have been met with such issues, I can imagine how upsetting that must be for you guys after seeing a big project like this through.


Anyway, thank you - in light of your post, I don't feel like this is being swept under the carpet so much, which was my main annoyance. Yes, my money has still been spent but I chose to do that, I can live with not buying another game for a month or two (even if I do want TW2+a new graphics card so badly I am tempted to post my credit card to the North Pole).

Anyway, back to work, only here during a veeery long build, and had to jump in and open my great big trap. I've tried to parse out sycophancy and rage, but no warranties are express or implied re: success rate. Message ends.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 27 mai 2011 - 09:34 .

[Melca36]

In Exile wrote...

JakePT wrote...
Just don't go overboard. I think some of the flaws of both DA2 and ME2 were because of an overreaction to feedback, not ignoring it.

"The inventory is kind of crappy, and the RPG elements are hard to understand."
"Ok, GONE!"

"Combat's a bit slow, why do they shuffle along in the middle of a fight?"
"Ok, how about you leap ENORMOUS distances and slide along the ground in an instant and people are sprinting all over the place and teleporting so fast you can't even see what's happening, and if you do hit them they EXPLODE!!"

The solution to shuffling in combat in DA2 seemed to be to change the entire physics of the universe in a way that didn't gel well with the story, which was even more realistic and grounded than DA:Os. The kind of world that Gaider et al. and the stories they're telling it in require a more grounded approach to combat. That doesn't mean shuffling and unreponsiveness, but it certainly doesn't mean flying through the air and enemies exploding.

We obviously want you to take feedback into account, but don't compromise your artistic integrity to do so. Take feedback into account, but stay true to what Dragon Age is supposed to be.

I think offering playtesting modules isn't a bad idea. Just tweak some animations (for example) and mess with the inventory screen for companions, and release a demo to some of the forum (on a confidentiality basis) to see what the response is.

That way, you can see directly what the pulse is. As long as you do an SRS that's representative, you'll get meaningful data.

Valve did that recently to some DLC for Left For Dead 2.  The fans really appreciated being part of that.

[berserkerblob]

Thank you Mr. Laidlaw, I really appreciate that you take notice of the criticism in this forum and give some feedback to us.
And few users really seem to lack some good manners because disappointment is certainly no a justification for being rude against people from bioware.

[v_ware]

Maria Caliban wrote...

v_ware wrote...
It's not the truth, but intersubjectivity is the closest thing to truth.

No, it's not. That lots of people believe a thing to be true doesn't make it more or less true. Truth is not a popularity contest.

My psychology professor disagrees with you. Anywho this discussion is about how good people think DA2 is. How good and likable something is, is measured by how people think about it. They played the game, experienced it and judged it. And thousands of people have given there vote and IT IS THE LOWEST RATED BIOWARE  GAME IN A VERY LONG TIME.

That's the truth. (or the closest thing to the truth)

And I'm the fairest in the land. (thats not the truth, but wth if you can lie i can do to )

[LyndseyCousland]

RageGT wrote...

Luke Barrett wrote...

LyndseyCousland wrote...

Although
I do have to approve of not posting if you're not sure you can remain
professional. Nice to see that on this sort of forum. Now if only I
could do the same.

The trick is to reread your posts and
make sure you're actually contributing something vital to the
conversation before hitting that cheeky little 'submit' button, sitting
all innocent down there as if it didn't have the power to pour pure
hatred or irrational jibber-jabber at it's finger tip.

Give us Preview like most forums do! Please!!! [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]

A
Preview button would be handy although I simply lack the will to deny
the might of the Subit button. He's all shiny and blue and he demands
attention.



Anyway: I appreciate the want for a wider audience and I respect making changes to perhaps make gameplay less niggly (things to do with inventories and stats, etc). I kind of want to see that 'clunky old school RPG' feel to stay on the console market outside of Japanese releases which, as much as I do like some of them, have a style I just can't get into any more.

What I'm saying is that I figure any new games will be geered towards what is thought of as the majority of the market which at the moment seems to be a bit... how to put it nicely? Dense. Okay, okay, that was harsh. They seem to have less patience, like how movies nowadays are only over an hour long in comparision to something like Rosemary's Baby.
It would be wonderful to see a series not 'give in' or at least morph itself slowly. I don't see why everything on the market has to compete so hard to be, essentially, the same. It feels like a lot of the time it's built to be the same laser shooting monster with time spent in finding a slighlty different flashier coat than its competition.

I'm more than certain I'm babbling so I'll wrap this up.
And after reading over what I've written it hardly makes any sense. I wasn't able to say what I wanted to say. If I post it maybe someone will disagree slightly and say what I actually wanted to say.