1373 réponses à ce sujet

[midgetman94]

Xewaka wrote...

midgetman94 wrote...

Xewaka wrote...

Mike Laidlaw wrote...
rivalry, and the responsiveness of combat all fall into that category for me

I think you mistake responsiveness with speed. The frontloading of attacks means the game is less responsive than its predecessor, as we are now stuck with watching the full attack animation run, instead of being able to snap-react and move out of the way inmediately.

Ugh, sorry, but it's stuff like this that really makes my blood boil. Sometimes the hate for DA2 (or nostalgia for DAO?) gets to the point that the truth is just ignored.
Sorry, you're not really saying that the game which employed THE SHUFFLE was more responsive are you? Or the one where there was a noticeable delay everytime you queued up an attack? 
Please tell me you're not 

Considering I had more shuffle issues with DA 2 than with DA:O, that's exactly what I'm saying. In DA:O, when I clicked the ground, my character immediately started moving to the new position. In DA 2, when I clicked the ground, my character finished whatever he/she was doing, then moved to the new position. Therefore, DA:O was more responsive than DA 2.
DA 2 is faster, I concede that. But faster does not equate more responsive.

You're talking about a very specific situation, not one that reflects overall responsiveness, and I'm still a bit puzzled as to what you're trying to do. You're trying to move somewhere in the middle of an animation? Why? 

Maybe you could do this in DA:O, but the only reason I can think of would be if you were interrupting a "shuffle." As in you click on a guy, Warden starts shuffling over, then you can move somewhere else in the middle. If you're in the middle of an animation, like swinging your sword at a guy, you can't just suddenly move - and again, even if you could, why would you want to?

That doesn't change the fact that you click to attack in DA:O, there's a long pause and your guy shuffles toward him. DA2 you click, you attack. To borrow an oft-quoted phrase "you press a button, something awesome happens." Now we can debate how "awesome" that thing ended up being... :innocent:. You're right, responsiveness is downtime between a command and the action executing. That was 100% undoubtedly, indisputably improved in DA2. Go play the two back-to-back if you don't believe me.

[groundhogie]

Great post from Mike. I don't post here on this forum often but I thought I would this particular time. I thought DA2 was a brilliant game but with some flaws... and I think most people who bought the game agree with me. Yes, some changes are needed but mostly DA2 was a success for me.

I just hope that the vocal minority who spend so much time attacking even the popular changes in the DA series don't f**k up the next game for the rest of us who enjoyed the game but maybe don't have the time or inclination to rant away on forums.

[JediHealerCosmin]

First of all, I wish to say that I am a weak fool. By that I mean that I got excited by seeing the pictures. 
Mostly due to the fact that it doesn't involve Kirkwall.


Hawke's story was indeed "a departure from the usual tale" and inspite of all of its setbacks (let's not pretend it didn't have a lot) I consider it a tale that had to be told. I just consider it something that was necessary to change the world and then leave it in a dark corner somewhere.

In other words, I prefer the hero vs evil situation. DA2 was a very depressing chapter (story-wise).

I hope, Mr. Laidlaw, that you guys will change this in the future.
If not... heck I'll get used to it

Modifié par JediHealerCosmin, 27 mai 2011 - 01:54 .

[ninnisinni97]

Very well thought-out and formulated post Mike! I really appreciate that you took your time to write it to clarify some things we as fans have been wondering about, especially as you really didn't have to do it.

Also, I'm sorry that you recieved som much personal attacks, as I really think it was uncalled for. I mean, even though I was a bit disappointed in DA2 in some areas, I also understand that attacking you personally doesn't really do anyone any good.

P.S.: Also: Is it just me, or do those screenies look WAY better than anything in the DA franchise has before?

[andraip]

Great post. I'm looking forward to stroy DLC & DA3

[Morroian]

fchopin wrote...

LiquidGrape wrote...

fchopin wrote...

Mike Laidlaw already knows what i want fixed.

Well, I'm sure your concerns are their number one priority. Or something.

Well they are free to follow your examples if they want, if they are not making rpg’s anymore that is fine, there are many more game companies that do.

So you want Act 3 fixed but you won't say what you want fixed. If its what I suspect its not exactly something they can fix, not like say recycled areas for which they could do new areas if they really wished.

[Uzzy]

I just hope there's a few things learnt.

1st, that the Dragon Age franchise does not in anyway deserve to be treat as the red headed stepchild of Bioware. Give the games the time and respect they need to be finished, to be completed. Rush out DA3 and you can kiss goodbye to my English pounds.

2nd, that if you're going to make a deep, political and personal story, rather then the Hero's Journey, get writers who can do it. Or just hire Obsidian.

3rd, go play The Witcher 2 to death, and learn from it. That's if you're wanting to go towards a more action orientated RPG, that is. Go all out, don't hold back.

[NKKKK]

Mike isn't going to admit DA2 sucks for marketing reasons

[Dragoonlordz]

Luke Barrett wrote...

If it helps at all, I've got a long list of items that I made entirely from forum feedback that I check new content against when I'm working with it. Basically, I want to make sure everything we touch going forward meets and exceeds community expectations on all fronts. I'm sure the higher-ups have similar lists when they are dealing with the macro of it all (I deal primarily in micro)

That is good to hear, sums up what I would expect and hope do in regards to future content and titles from you guys. I just hope your list is more comprehensive than the list you may have had when went from DAO to DA2 and contains many more aspects that have been discussed on these forums since it's release. I agree with Jake though about not going overboard too.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 27 mai 2011 - 02:05 .

[aftohsix]

NKKKK wrote...

Mike isn't going to admit DA2 sucks for marketing reasons

Or because he believes as many of us do that it doesn't suck.

[KennethAFTopp]

I really missed certain things about DA:o such as the item system which I felt worked much than in DAII, like for instance I wouldn't mind actually being able to wear all armors if I am a warrior and such instead of class limiting everything.

Also dual wielding swords for the Maker's Sake let's bring that back! please?
Also why can't characters miss their target, why can't enemies and characters parry with their sword or shield anymore?
you really need to adjust your fighting animations again, make it feel like it's actually people with swords squaring off because right now it doesn'.t
I am thinking, dodges, parrying, losing the balance and so on and so forth.

Modifié par KennethAFTopp, 27 mai 2011 - 02:20 .

[ozenglish]

Dear Mike,

I find it discouraging as a gamer, that you felt the need to sit back and wait to respond, because gamers were attacking you personally. I think it is more a bad light on us, many of us being mature adults, that we can't communicate what we think on the internet, like we would in a real life situation.

I hope that as gamers, we as a community take away at least, an understanding that while we may feel let down, or jipped or in some extreme cases ripped off, we could at least learn to do what you did, take some time and respond only when we can discuss it calmly.

There were aspects of the game I didn't like, but unlike many, I didn't think it took away from the franchise. Instead it reminded me of why I am glad gaming has evolved since the 90's.

Take care, and thanks for an awesome response.

To the Community, let's learn something from this.

[Xewaka]

midgetman94 wrote...
You're talking about a very specific situation, not one that reflects overall responsiveness, and I'm still a bit puzzled as to what you're trying to do. You're trying to move somewhere in the middle of an animation? Why? 
Maybe you could do this in DA:O, but the only reason I can think of would be if you were interrupting a "shuffle." As in you click on a guy, Warden starts shuffling over, then you can move somewhere else in the middle. If you're in the middle of an animation, like swinging your sword at a guy, you can't just suddenly move - and again, even if you could, why would you want to?

DA 2 situation: Archer Hawke duelling the Arishok. You let loose an autoattack arrow. Arishok starts charging. Before you're able to move aside, you must see the one and change second long animation of the bow. By the time it is finished, the arishok has rammed you, implaed you, and murdered you. Thank you for trying, come back soon.
DA:O situation: Morrigan has moved slightly off the mark when I started summoning a Blizzard and has aggroed a mob. I can inmediately interrupt the casting and move her away, and I can inmediately move Alistair towards an intercepting route.
Yes, if you simply click attack on the mob, Alistair may start to awkwardly shuffle to reach the target. If you control your party members correctly, however, it does not happen: click-to-go is a wonderful thing to use that eliminates any shuffling in DA:O.

midgetman94 wrote...
That doesn't change the fact that you click to attack in DA:O, there's a long pause and your guy shuffles toward him. DA2 you click, you attack. To borrow an oft-quoted phrase "you press a button, something awesome happens." Now we can debate how "awesome" that thing ended up being... :innocent:.

Usually, when I press the attack button, Aveline rams the corner/hallway I'm using to draw the enemies into favorable ground and gets stuck. When I press the move button to get away from the big honking dragon, Anders waves his arms a little more instead of getting off the way and gets rammed and knocked to the ground.
Neither of these things happened to me in DA:O. Closing attacks ruin the pathfinding around corners.

midgetman94 wrote...
You're right, responsiveness is downtime between a command and the action executing.That was 100% undoubtedly, indisputably improved in DA2. Go play the two back-to-back if you don't believe me.

As I've noted around, this is factually wrong. There is a delay between imputting an order and acknowledging that order in DA 2 equal to the remaining amount of time for the attack animation that is running. Said downtime does not exist in DA:O, as when you execute a command, any amination in progress is automatically cancelled and the order is aknowledged inmediately. They may perform it faster once aknowledged in DA 2, but the downtime to recognize the order is higher. This is why, while DA 2 is certainly faster, DA:O is more responsive.
Frontloading damage and thus forcing the animation to run full was a mistake.

[Saintthanksgiving]

I do not think the community owes the developers any kind of apology. If you liked DA2 or hated it, you have every riight to post your feelings on the matter as a consumer. You paid 60 bucks for the thing, the guy who sold it to you should be interested iin hearing how it was received if he hopes to sell you another one. As for the personal attacks, I felt that many of the comments made by Teyrn Laidlaw were attacks against rpg fans and fans of origins. Teyrn Laidlaw fired the first shots.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Further, I'm not only aware of the concerns, but I agree that there are aspects of DA II that not only can but must be improved in future installments. And that is precisely our intent.

I'll casually mention that you need a central party management screen.  :)  


W00t to the rest.  :lol:

[aftohsix]

Saintthanksgiving wrote...

I do not think the community owes the developers any kind of apology. If you liked DA2 or hated it, you have every riight to post your feelings on the matter as a consumer. You paid 60 bucks for the thing, the guy who sold it to you should be interested iin hearing how it was received if he hopes to sell you another one. As for the personal attacks, I felt that many of the comments made by Teyrn Laidlaw were attacks against rpg fans and fans of origins. Teyrn Laidlaw fired the first shots.

I disagree.  The first amendment protects my freedom of speech but it's still wrong for me to yell "fire" in a crowded theater.

It's one thing to dislike a product and express your dislike in a professional, civil manner.

It's another to sign on to a message board, refer to the lead developer as "Mike Lamelaw (OMG LOL see wut I did thur?!)" and make a petition to have individuals responsible for the development of the game be fired.

Some members of the "community" definitely owe the developers an apology.  Especially since this post proves their whole "Bioware doesn't care about us mentality" wrong.

[TEWR]

and this is why you're awesome Mike. This is why I love all the effort the Bioware staff puts into not only their games but into addressing the concerns of the fanbase.

I certainly understand staying away from the vitriol. I would only be able to tackle so much of it in a professional manner for only so long and then I'd start to get pissed off.

The fact that you said some concerns must be addressed in the future is something astounding. While I do immensely enjoy DA2, certain story elements were indeed lacking, but I place no blame on any of the Bioware staff. I place the blame on EA, but that is for another day.

Personally, the combat has definitely been improved, though it is still somewhat flawed. But overall, it has improved by leaps and bounds.

Mike, if I may call you Mike, allow me to say that you are a great person to have on the team.

[MonkeyLungs]

aftohsix wrote...

Saintthanksgiving wrote...

I do not think the community owes the developers any kind of apology. If you liked DA2 or hated it, you have every riight to post your feelings on the matter as a consumer. You paid 60 bucks for the thing, the guy who sold it to you should be interested iin hearing how it was received if he hopes to sell you another one. As for the personal attacks, I felt that many of the comments made by Teyrn Laidlaw were attacks against rpg fans and fans of origins. Teyrn Laidlaw fired the first shots.

I disagree.  The first amendment protects my freedom of speech but it's still wrong for me to yell "fire" in a crowded theater.

It's one thing to dislike a product and express your dislike in a professional, civil manner.

It's another to sign on to a message board, refer to the lead developer as "Mike Lamelaw (OMG LOL see wut I did thur?!)" and make a petition to have individuals responsible for the development of the game be fired.

Some members of the "community" definitely owe the developers an apology.  Especially since this post proves their whole "Bioware doesn't care about us mentality" wrong.

The post is an olive branch to the community by one person from Bioware. This post doesn't prove anything. It is a good gesture and Mike had to do this sometime if he wanted to communicate with the community again. Most of us with complaints were never making personal attacks anyway. Some of us have been around since you had to post on Black Isle boards to talk about Bio games. The folks with Nov 2009 join dates are the migrants from the NWN boards. We've seen fan displeasure before but I can't remember an outcry of this magnitude. NWN OC was heavily derided but the toolset made up for that. DA2 just literally pissed off a lot of people. It's not like DA:O was released all that long ago and it was very welll received. Doing a reboot was a bit of a slap in the face to many of the fans who helped make DA:O such a success.

[TheRevelator]

Maybe this will calm some of the louder folk down!


(Nope)

[TheStrand221]

aftohsix wrote...

NKKKK wrote...

Mike isn't going to admit DA2 sucks for marketing reasons

Or because he believes as many of us do that it doesn't suck.

I'd say it doesn't suck, and I have a fair number of things I'd criticize about DA2.

I think Mr. Laidlaw probably has enough perspective to understand that if people are highly critical of DA2 it's because they care about the franchise.  That's better than apathy.  How else could you stand to read forums as a dev?

[neppakyo]

The disc still makes an awesome coaster.

I'll wait and see. So far not impressed with the low-res screen shots. Maybe it'll be good, won't know till its out. I still hate the combat, so unless thats getting improved...

*slips out*

[aftohsix]

MonkeyLungs wrote...

The post is an olive branch to the community by one person from Bioware. This post doesn't prove anything. It is a good gesture and Mike had to do this sometime if he wanted to communicate with the community again. Most of us with complaints were never making personal attacks anyway. Some of us have been around since you had to post on Black Isle boards to talk about Bio games. The folks with Nov 2009 join dates are the migrants from the NWN boards. We've seen fan displeasure before but I can't remember an outcry of this magnitude. NWN OC was heavily derided but the toolset made up for that. DA2 just literally pissed off a lot of people. It's not like DA:O was released all that long ago and it was very welll received. Doing a reboot was a bit of a slap in the face to many of the fans who helped make DA:O such a success.

Even if you saw DA2 as a "slap in the face" how does that excuse acting like a complete entitled **** because you're mad? (Not you personally MonkeyLungs, many many members of the community)

[mr_luga]

It's going to be interesting to see how many people are going to buy DLC's for DA2 and pre-order for Dragon age 3 after having experienced Dragon age 2 -.-

Ask in any RPG forum and you're going to get 90% negativity towards Dragon age 2, everyone I know who has played it arent interested in dragon age anymore :-/

[aftohsix]

mr_luga wrote...

It's going to be interesting to see how many people are going to buy DLC's for DA2 and pre-order for Dragon age 3 after having experienced Dragon age 2 -.-

Ask in any RPG forum and you're going to get 90% negativity towards Dragon age 2, everyone I know who has played it arent interested in dragon age anymore :-/

Most members of these RPG forums are also still playing games over a decade old and holding them up like they're some kind of holy relic.

Most gamers I know aren't interested in re-visiting game design from 1996.  Elements of it sure, but the industry has come a long way since then.