1373 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

It's nothing new, people have been calling BioWare personnel liars for a long time. It's their choice, it just doesn't really add anything. What's Laidlaw gonna say?

Isn’t one of the complaints being made that promises were made (in advertising and the podcast) that Hawke could make decisions that would impact the story, which isn’t true, especially considering that even the two endings are almost identical to one another? Why shouldn’t people address their reservations now? I’m hoping for better, but I can see why people would be distrustful. I want Hawke to be intelligent, I want Hawke to be proactive and make decisions that actually have consequences.

[Ottemis]

Everwarden wrote...

Ottemis wrote...

You expect fullblown details now? That's not realistic and I hope you realise that.
If that was what you expected I'd dare say you set yourself up for disappointment intentfully.

No, I expect* honest admissions of their mistakes. That didn't happen, and it won't, but it still should.

*"Expect" in this context doesn't mean I actually anticipate this will happen, this is just what I would require to happen to restore my faith as a customer in Bioware.

Eh, we must have not read the same post, or did you read it while standing on your head or something?
If you expect any admissions of mistake aside from those given, don't hold your breath I'd say.
For the sake of argument though, what should they specifically 'cop up to' in your opinion? I'm curious.

Modifié par Ottemis, 28 mai 2011 - 12:50 .

[Lord_Valandil]

Maverick827 wrote...

Lord_Valandil wrote...

But alas, I guess we're trolls.

I wouldn't say you (e.g. him; I haven't followed your posting habbits lately) are trolls.  Trolling means posting something - more often than not something the troll does not even agree with - simply to get a rise out of people.  I think "you people" are just malcontents with a sweet tooth for hyperbole, melodrama, and in some cases, arrogance.

You threw yourself in with the guy who wrote gems such as:

The game of DA2 was a guy that did a bunch of fetch quests with 3 story arcs that in any other game would have been nothing more than sidequests.

You removed any connection a player could honestly feel towards his character by including VO's and a Mass Effect dialogue wheel.

 I thought Sten was boring when I played DAO but by comparison to DA2 he's freaking amazing.

And who could forget the classics, like:

I'm not egotistical but I swear to God I could write better and more enjoyable characters in a few hours.

Hell, I know grade schoolers that could have written a better story that had better pacing and more interesting developments.

You stood on the shoulders of Brent Knowles and said, "I could do things better" - and you failed.

I mean, really?

I said that I agreed "mostly", not "completely".
And also, I think I discouraged him to start debating, so this wouldn't turn into a flame war (which happened anyway, that's inevitable) in which I didn't take part.
That's the word of a Nug Cake. Anyway, I took more than two months away from the forum, and it's not like I'm going to start again with the same stuff. I'm done with it, don't worry Maverick.

Modifié par Lord_Valandil, 28 mai 2011 - 12:42 .

[Lux]

Mike, I hope that for the next iteration you guys have more leeway to when your creation is ready to be released.

Cheers.

[TEWR]

Everwarden wrote...

Ottemis wrote...

You expect fullblown details now? That's not realistic and I hope you realise that.
If that was what you expected I'd dare say you set yourself up for disappointment intentfully.

No, I expect* honest admissions of their mistakes. That didn't happen, and it won't, but it still should.

*"Expect" in this context doesn't mean I actually anticipate this will happen, this is just what I would require to happen to restore my faith as a customer in Bioware.

and when they don't come out and say it blatantly you b**** and moan.

If you've lost faith in DA and Bioware as a company, then why stay on the forums at all? Why not delete your account?

[TEWR]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

It's nothing new, people have been calling BioWare personnel liars for a long time. It's their choice, it just doesn't really add anything. What's Laidlaw gonna say?

Isn’t one of the complaints being made that promises were made (in advertising and the podcast) that Hawke could make decisions that would impact the story, which isn’t true, especially considering that even the two endings are almost identical to one another? Why shouldn’t people address their reservations now? I’m hoping for better, but I can see why people would be distrustful. I want Hawke to be intelligent, I want Hawke to be proactive and make decisions that actually have consequences.

This was one of the things that irked me immensely when I played DA2. And then I went back to the "making of" segments and the podcast and I grew even angrier. It was false advertising.

That said, I had already bought the game and I just learned to deal with it. I mean, what was I going to do? Sue Bioware and if I win the case rob them of money so they can't make any more games? Then I'd be responsible for killing the DA series.

[Lord_Valandil]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
If you've lost faith in DA and Bioware as a company, then why stay on the forums at all? Why not delete your account?

My faith in DA has been damaged, but it's not dead yet. I'm still waiting to see what happens with DA3, but one thing is certain, if it follows the same path as DA2 then I'll be careful with it.

[Everwarden]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

If you've lost faith in DA and Bioware as a company, then why stay on the forums at all? Why not delete your account?

It's a good place to find like-minded people who also bemoan the death of Bioware as a company that makes good games. 

Though I've always found the "Well if you hate xyz, why do you even talk about it!?" argument to be a cop-out. 

[erynnar]

xi ShadowWolf x wrote...

Blood-Lord Thanatos wrote...

Mike, allow me to speak for the veterans:

THIS IS THE BESTEST SODDING UPDATE EVER!

I salute the Developers for having the courage to keep calm and carry on like true artists. I wish to point out that I have been waiting patiently for some awesome story based DLC and some more patches before I give my personal review of your product. I say this because I wish to be fair to the Dev's, including David, Jennifer, Kirby, John, and the rest.

I compleatly agree with this

Um thanks, but neither of you speak for me. Just sayin' I can voice my own opinion.

[Tommy6860]

Everwarden wrote...

Ottemis wrote...

You expect fullblown details now? That's not realistic and I hope you realise that.
If that was what you expected I'd dare say you set yourself up for disappointment intentfully.

No, I expect* honest admissions of their mistakes. That didn't happen, and it won't, but it still should.

*"Expect" in this context doesn't mean I actually anticipate this will happen, this is just what I would require to happen to restore my faith as a customer in Bioware.

I agree with all of your sentiments in nearly all of the post you've made regarding DA2. I (personally) think the game wasn't good, but I will never ever say that Mike, Bioware or anyone involved with creating the game should say they made a mistake; that's just unfair really. They took the game in a direction where I didn't like it, but they did it with the intent to move in a different direction and attract a larger crowd. I think they know the consequences of the changes. Wanting them to admit a mistake is only for the purpose of one's self and not some good of the community. If they did do that, then what does that say to those who liked the game?

[KnightofPhoenix]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

It's nothing new, people have been calling BioWare personnel liars for a long time. It's their choice, it just doesn't really add anything. What's Laidlaw gonna say?

Isn’t one of the complaints being made that promises were made (in advertising and the podcast) that Hawke could make decisions that would impact the story, which isn’t true, especially considering that even the two endings are almost identical to one another? Why shouldn’t people address their reservations now? I’m hoping for better, but I can see why people would be distrustful. I want Hawke to be intelligent, I want Hawke to be proactive and make decisions that actually have consequences.

Indeed. There is your average hyperbolic marketing. And then there is your unsubtly dishonest one (aka, not smartly dishonest). Whether you want to call it lying or not is irrelevent. A legitimate criticism is how over the top and plain wrong the marketing was. It's almost like that of Fable 1.

[Everwarden]

Ottemis wrote...
Eh, we must have not read the same post,

No, we did.

If you expect any admissions of mistake aside from those given, don't hold your breath I'd say.

No admissions of mistakes were given. Here, I'll save you the effort of rereading the post: 

I am absolutely aware of the concerns voiced here. Issues like level re-use, the implementation of wave combat, concerns about the narrative and significance of choice and so on have all been not only noted, but examined,

He didn't admit any problems in Dragon Age 2, he said he was "aware that people had concerns". That isn't the same thing. That's like someone making a public apology to the effect of, "We're sorry if what we said offended anyone", rather than actually conceding fault in something one has said. 

[Persephone]

Tommy6860 wrote...

Everwarden wrote...

Ottemis wrote...

You expect fullblown details now? That's not realistic and I hope you realise that.
If that was what you expected I'd dare say you set yourself up for disappointment intentfully.

No, I expect* honest admissions of their mistakes. That didn't happen, and it won't, but it still should.

*"Expect" in this context doesn't mean I actually anticipate this will happen, this is just what I would require to happen to restore my faith as a customer in Bioware.

I agree with all of your sentiments in nearly all of the post you've made regarding DA2. I (personally) think the game wasn't good, but I will never ever say that Mike, Bioware or anyone involved with creating the game should say they made a mistake; that's just unfair really. They took the game in a direction where I didn't like it, but they did it with the intent to move in a different direction and attract a larger crowd. I think they know the consequences of the changes. Wanting them to admit a mistake is only for the purpose of one's self and not some good of the community. If they did do that, then what does that say to those who liked the game?

That we don't matter. It's a sentiment I've had tossed at me anyhow. (Not by the devs though)

[Persephone]

Everwarden wrote...

He didn't admit any problems in Dragon Age 2, he said he was "aware that people had concerns". That isn't the same thing. That's like someone making a public apology to the effect of, "We're sorry if what we said offended anyone", rather than actually conceding fault in something one has said. 

Missed this part?

Further, I'm not only aware of the concerns, but I agree that there are aspects of DA II that not only can but must be improved in future installments. And that is precisely our intent.

[neppakyo]

Wow.. so many pages since I left for work. Seems a lot of fans are giving mike a good ol' bukakke session.

While some fans are more constructive. This thread is epically amusing, thanks everyone!

[TEWR]

Everwarden wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

If you've lost faith in DA and Bioware as a company, then why stay on the forums at all? Why not delete your account?

It's a good place to find like-minded people who also bemoan the death of Bioware as a company that makes good games. 

Though I've always found the "Well if you hate xyz, why do you even talk about it!?" argument to be a cop-out. 

I don't mind people talking about something they personally didn't like. The key word there is personally as the italics indicate. Tastes in something are only relevant to the individual person.

it all boils down to a previous statement of mine in this thread regarding skepticism, which can be applied to constructive criticism:

There's constructive criticism and then there's making yourself look like a massive jackass.

[Everwarden]

Tommy6860 wrote...
If they did do that, then what does that say to those who liked the game?

I wanted to give a snarky, sarcastic "Go get better taste.", but that would just be trollin'.

Well, honestly, I don't want them to outright admit that Dragon Age 2 was a mistake in its entirety, just the major things that he mentioned. Waves, lack of choice, and re-used maps. The problem is that he didn't concede fault on -anything-, he pushed out a canned response claiming that all criticism was being 'examined'. Well, no ****. I knew that already. That went without saying. 

[Tommy6860]

Persephone wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...

Everwarden wrote...

Ottemis wrote...

You expect fullblown details now? That's not realistic and I hope you realise that.
If that was what you expected I'd dare say you set yourself up for disappointment intentfully.

No, I expect* honest admissions of their mistakes. That didn't happen, and it won't, but it still should.

*"Expect" in this context doesn't mean I actually anticipate this will happen, this is just what I would require to happen to restore my faith as a customer in Bioware.

I agree with all of your sentiments in nearly all of the post you've made regarding DA2. I (personally) think the game wasn't good, but I will never ever say that Mike, Bioware or anyone involved with creating the game should say they made a mistake; that's just unfair really. They took the game in a direction where I didn't like it, but they did it with the intent to move in a different direction and attract a larger crowd. I think they know the consequences of the changes. Wanting them to admit a mistake is only for the purpose of one's self and not some good of the community. If they did do that, then what does that say to those who liked the game?

That we don't matter. It's a sentiment I've had tossed at me anyhow. (Not by the devs though)

Maybe you're just taking it too personally. I guess "we" is a collective, or you are "we".

Seriously though, you like the game, what other validation or approval do you need?

[TEWR]

Everwarden wrote...

Ottemis wrote...
Eh, we must have not read the same post,

No, we did.

If you expect any admissions of mistake aside from those given, don't hold your breath I'd say.

No admissions of mistakes were given. Here, I'll save you the effort of rereading the post: 

I am absolutely aware of the concerns voiced here. Issues like level re-use, the implementation of wave combat, concerns about the narrative and significance of choice and so on have all been not only noted, but examined,

He didn't admit any problems in Dragon Age 2, he said he was "aware that people had concerns". That isn't the same thing. That's like someone making a public apology to the effect of, "We're sorry if what we said offended anyone", rather than actually conceding fault in something one has said. 

so to you when people show a concern with something, that means a concern =/= problem?

People having concerns means people have a problem with something. Being aware of those problems means that they acknowledge that they are indeed problems, be they minor or major

[Everwarden]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
There's constructive criticism and then there's making yourself look like a massive jackass.

[In Exile]

Persephone wrote...
Missed this part?

Further, I'm not only aware of the concerns, but I agree that there are aspects of DA II that not only can but must be improved in future installments. And that is precisely our intent.

If you want to get technical, it does not actually follow from that sentence that the aspects of DAII that can and must be improved are the aspects that were examined.

These are != there are.

[Persephone]

Tommy6860 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...

Everwarden wrote...

Ottemis wrote...

You expect fullblown details now? That's not realistic and I hope you realise that.
If that was what you expected I'd dare say you set yourself up for disappointment intentfully.

No, I expect* honest admissions of their mistakes. That didn't happen, and it won't, but it still should.

*"Expect" in this context doesn't mean I actually anticipate this will happen, this is just what I would require to happen to restore my faith as a customer in Bioware.

I agree with all of your sentiments in nearly all of the post you've made regarding DA2. I (personally) think the game wasn't good, but I will never ever say that Mike, Bioware or anyone involved with creating the game should say they made a mistake; that's just unfair really. They took the game in a direction where I didn't like it, but they did it with the intent to move in a different direction and attract a larger crowd. I think they know the consequences of the changes. Wanting them to admit a mistake is only for the purpose of one's self and not some good of the community. If they did do that, then what does that say to those who liked the game?

That we don't matter. It's a sentiment I've had tossed at me anyhow. (Not by the devs though)

Maybe you're just taking it too personally. I guess "we" is a collective, or you are "we".

Seriously though, you like the game, what other validation or approval do you need?

We as in yours truly and several of my friends here who feel the same way at times. I do not need anyone's approval. Civility will do just fine.

[TEWR]

Everwarden wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
There's constructive criticism and then there's making yourself look like a massive jackass.

nowhere near as cute as this fella:

[Ottemis]

Everwarden wrote...

Ottemis wrote...
Eh, we must have not read the same post,

No, we did.

If you expect any admissions of mistake aside from those given, don't hold your breath I'd say.

No admissions of mistakes were given. Here, I'll save you the effort of rereading the post: 

I am absolutely aware of the concerns voiced here. Issues like level re-use, the implementation of wave combat, concerns about the narrative and significance of choice and so on have all been not only noted, but examined,

He didn't admit any problems in Dragon Age 2, he said he was "aware that people had concerns". That isn't the same thing. That's like someone making a public apology to the effect of, "We're sorry if what we said offended anyone", rather than actually conceding fault in something one has said. 

He also said and I quote:
"Further, I'm not only aware of the concerns, but I agree that there are aspects of DA II that not only can but must be improved in future installments. And that is precisely our intent."

Saying some things MUST be improved implies there being a problem with them.
You're nitpicking don't you think?

Modifié par Ottemis, 28 mai 2011 - 01:11 .

[Ponendus]

Thanks Mike. What a great treat to log on to the forums today and see all these comments you've made. I think I've also posted on the forums a few times here that the reason I imagine you were being somewhat quiet is that you were finding it hard to respond to people that were tearing apart (unfairly alot of the time) something that you have dedicated a lot of time and energy to. That would be hard for any artist, so I had a feeling you would be back when you were ready, and I am really glad I was right.

I admit I was a bit disappointed in DA2 but I honestly didn't lose faith that BioWare would listen and improve in the future. It looks as though that is exactly what you are doing and for that reason I am really excited for the future again. Onwards!