1373 réponses à ce sujet

[erynnar]

Persephone wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...

Everwarden wrote...

Ottemis wrote...

You expect fullblown details now? That's not realistic and I hope you realise that.
If that was what you expected I'd dare say you set yourself up for disappointment intentfully.

No, I expect* honest admissions of their mistakes. That didn't happen, and it won't, but it still should.

*"Expect" in this context doesn't mean I actually anticipate this will happen, this is just what I would require to happen to restore my faith as a customer in Bioware.

I agree with all of your sentiments in nearly all of the post you've made regarding DA2. I (personally) think the game wasn't good, but I will never ever say that Mike, Bioware or anyone involved with creating the game should say they made a mistake; that's just unfair really. They took the game in a direction where I didn't like it, but they did it with the intent to move in a different direction and attract a larger crowd. I think they know the consequences of the changes. Wanting them to admit a mistake is only for the purpose of one's self and not some good of the community. If they did do that, then what does that say to those who liked the game?

That we don't matter. It's a sentiment I've had tossed at me anyhow. (Not by the devs though)

Well you do matter, but that same senitment has been tossed the other way as well to people like me who didn't like it all that much. It seems to be one of those beach balls that gets tossed. ROFL! Or is it a game of hot potato?

[Everwarden]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

so to you when people show a concern with something, that means a concern =/= problem?

People having concerns means people have a problem with something. Being aware of those problems means that they acknowledge that they are indeed problems, be they minor or major

Oh, I know he admits that -other- people see fault in Dragon Age 2. That much is obvious. I'm pointing out that at no point did he ever really admit that any of the concerns were something valid, and due to an error on the part of Bioware. Saying "I understand -you- have a problem with x." is not the same as saying "I understand that x is a problem." 

[Tommy6860]

Everwarden wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...
If they did do that, then what does that say to those who liked the game?

I wanted to give a snarky, sarcastic "Go get better taste.", but that would just be trollin'.

Well, honestly, I don't want them to outright admit that Dragon Age 2 was a mistake in its entirety, just the major things that he mentioned. Waves, lack of choice, and re-used maps. The problem is that he didn't concede fault on -anything-, he pushed out a canned response claiming that all criticism was being 'examined'. Well, no ****. I knew that already. That went without saying. 

And I get it, I really do and I agree with these very aspects you list here and I can list more. I really was disappointed in those features. I don't want him or anyone there to concede fault though, that's the same as admitting a mistake. When you go down the path you are right now, it is personally for your own sake that you hear, or read the the admissions, not for everyone. It just smacks in the faces of those who actually liked those features, is all I am saying. The fact that he says that things will have to change is good enough for now, though I admit I am very very skeptical considering his marketing campaign promos and how the DA2 website still makes the claims to the features of the game that it actually does not live up to..

Modifié par Tommy6860, 28 mai 2011 - 01:07 .

[TEWR]

Everwarden wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

so to you when people show a concern with something, that means a concern =/= problem?

People having concerns means people have a problem with something. Being aware of those problems means that they acknowledge that they are indeed problems, be they minor or major

Oh, I know he admits that -other- people see fault in Dragon Age 2. That much is obvious. I'm pointing out that at no point did he ever really admit that any of the concerns were something valid, and due to an error on the part of Bioware. Saying "I understand -you- have a problem with x." is not the same as saying "I understand that x is a problem." 

so send him a PM and ask him if he admits that they are indeed problems. Or ask any Bioware dev.

Believe it or not, they don't bite when you talk to them

[Everwarden]

Persephone wrote...
Missed this part?

Further, I'm not only aware of the concerns, but I agree that there are aspects of DA II that not only can but must be improved in future installments. And that is precisely our intent.

Nope, didn't miss it. He agrees that things need to be improved in the future. Great. Find me one interview in all of gaming history where a developer said, "Y'know, our last installment was so awesome we're not going to improve anything. You'll just get more of the same."

He -course- he is going to claim that unspecified 'aspects of DA II' will be improved. Sorry, rings hollow until he gives some specifics or posts something that doesn't seem like it was forwarded to him by the marketing department. 

[Ottemis]

Ugh.

[TEWR]

Ottemis wrote...

Ugh.

stop being racist against cavemen

[Ottemis]

Haha
Sorry /ontopic again.

[Tommy6860]

erynnar wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...

Everwarden wrote...

Ottemis wrote...

You expect fullblown details now? That's not realistic and I hope you realise that.
If that was what you expected I'd dare say you set yourself up for disappointment intentfully.

No, I expect* honest admissions of their mistakes. That didn't happen, and it won't, but it still should.

*"Expect" in this context doesn't mean I actually anticipate this will happen, this is just what I would require to happen to restore my faith as a customer in Bioware.

I agree with all of your sentiments in nearly all of the post you've made regarding DA2. I (personally) think the game wasn't good, but I will never ever say that Mike, Bioware or anyone involved with creating the game should say they made a mistake; that's just unfair really. They took the game in a direction where I didn't like it, but they did it with the intent to move in a different direction and attract a larger crowd. I think they know the consequences of the changes. Wanting them to admit a mistake is only for the purpose of one's self and not some good of the community. If they did do that, then what does that say to those who liked the game?

That we don't matter. It's a sentiment I've had tossed at me anyhow. (Not by the devs though)

Well you do matter, but that same senitment has been tossed the other way as well to people like me who didn't like it all that much. It seems to be one of those beach balls that gets tossed. ROFL! Or is it a game of hot potato?

Here's what I think of the "beachball" analogy Ery; I don't play with them in the context in which you are using it here. I am all for discussing the differences here, even if we disagree to what is a good game or not a good game. What I don't do, is misrepresent the features (especailly when comparing games) and that happens a great deal, or go off on tangents as if they are meaningful to the differences when they are not pertinent, while continuing the digression with those tangents. Many people, I have just totally disengaged with when talking about features, it just gets old when it becomes a defense of their realm rather than a real discussion about points of the game..

Just to be clear, I have never experiened you playing the beachball game here, just incase you toook the first part wrong.   

[Robtachi]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Hey guys and gals,

As some of you have noted, I have been absent from these forums for a time, and my apologies for going dark, but I did not feel prepared to deal with some of the more personal attacks in a professional manner.

Mr. Laidlaw,

I must first say that - and I'm not afraid to speak for more than just myself since I have been active on these forums and know my sentiment is shared - your participation and candor is appreciated and indeed vital for your faithful Bioware fans to understand your unique viewpoints about what was invariably going to be a contentious topic.  It's Dragon Age.  No matter what it came out like, there was bound to be convtroversy, hyperbole, discussion, speculation and reflection on the game that succeeded Dragon Age: Origins.  Such is the nature of a sequel.  Your willingness to come out and speak freely about it now is commendable.

However I must say, I am not here to defend your last two months of absence.  In particular, that you stated you did not feel prepared to deal with the personal attacks in a professional manner, I found troubling.

On a personal note, I'll tell you that I am a professional Graphic Designer, and I feel I can empathize greatly.  In a way, everything that I do professionally is subject to harsh criticism and more significantly, the whims of the client - in your case, the fans.  Sometimes clients are constructive.  Sometimes they are stubborn and obstinate.  Sometimes they are downright insulting and unhelpful, and flat out hate what you do.  But the point is that I have to be prepared for any and all of that, to be able to absorb it all, run it through the ringers, and glean from it what information and criticism is truly helpful for creating a product that is both reflective of the designer's creative vision and the client's specifications and desires, because that is the other side of working in an industry that also is your biggest passion.

It stinks.  Sometimes our best ideas get panned.  Outright steamrolled.  But that's the nature of the beast and  success in designing (anything really) means getting past that (quickly and efficiently) and adapting.

I know this sounds like a lecture but it's not.  I'm really just trying to offer that there are hardcore, dedicated Bioware RPG fans out there, like myself, who understand the entirety of the creative process of bringing something like Dragon Age 2 from the cutting room floor to our consoles and PCs.  But we also understand the importance of accountability and sincerity, and the way in which negative perceptions can be reached prematurely or outright erroneously due to a lack of feedback or communication between the creative side and its clientele.

If you engage us, we will listen.  As a design professional, it is critical that we know how to deal with all aspects of that dynamic so as to develop an improved product for everyone each time you set to work anew.

Thanks for listening, anyway.

[In Exile]

Robtachi wrote...
However I must say, I am not here to defend your last two months of absence.  In particular, that you stated you did not feel prepared to deal with the personal attacks in a professional manner, I found troubling.

To be fair, there is a difference between death threats and calls of incompetence, which apparently were directed toward Mr. Laidlaw.

[KnightofPhoenix]

In Exile wrote...

Robtachi wrote...
However I must say, I am not here to defend your last two months of absence.  In particular, that you stated you did not feel prepared to deal with the personal attacks in a professional manner, I found troubling.

To be fair, there is a difference between death threats and calls of incompetence, which apparently were directed toward Mr. Laidlaw.

I'd say the former is easier to ignore than the latter.

But I don't have experience with that...much.

[Cutlass Jack]

Robtachi wrote...

I must first say that - and I'm not afraid to speak for more than just myself since I have been active on these forums and know my sentiment is shared

You don't speak for me. I can speak for myself. Though, I'll admit, reading the rest of your post, you're kind of speaking for me....damn. I hate when that happens.

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 28 mai 2011 - 01:32 .

[Robtachi]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Robtachi wrote...
However I must say, I am not here to defend your last two months of absence.  In particular, that you stated you did not feel prepared to deal with the personal attacks in a professional manner, I found troubling.

To be fair, there is a difference between death threats and calls of incompetence, which apparently were directed toward Mr. Laidlaw.

I'd say the former is easier to ignore than the latter.

But I don't have experience with that...much.

Right, I would tend to agree with that.  I can't say I've faced a myriad of threats on my life in response to my creative works, but if I did, it would be pretty easy to write them off as the ranting of some crazies who don't know which way is up.  That's all part of extracting the useful criticism from a whole mess of other stuff.

[Robtachi]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Robtachi wrote...

I must first say that - and I'm not afraid to speak for more than just myself since I have been active on these forums and know my sentiment is shared

You don't speak for me. I can speak for myself. Though, I'll admit, reading the rest of your post, you're kind of speaking for me....damn. I hate when that happens.

Cutlass Jack you've always managed to verbally undercut me. About time I had my revenge!

[Ottemis]

In Exile wrote...

Robtachi wrote...
However I must say, I am not here to defend your last two months of absence.  In particular, that you stated you did not feel prepared to deal with the personal attacks in a professional manner, I found troubling.

To be fair, there is a difference between death threats and calls of incompetence, which apparently were directed toward Mr. Laidlaw.

Then surely having both directed at you would be quite dire yes? I'd think so anyways heh.

I would like to initiate a community-hug! (cause that's the kind of tree-hugging-hippy I sometimes am, yes =P) 

Modifié par Ottemis, 28 mai 2011 - 01:47 .

[Garki]

Everwarden wrote...

Persephone wrote...
Missed this part?

Further, I'm not only aware of the concerns, but I agree that there are aspects of DA II that not only can but must be improved in future installments. And that is precisely our intent.

Nope, didn't miss it. He agrees that things need to be improved in the future. Great. Find me one interview in all of gaming history where a developer said, "Y'know, our last installment was so awesome we're not going to improve anything. You'll just get more of the same."

He -course- he is going to claim that unspecified 'aspects of DA II' will be improved. Sorry, rings hollow until he gives some specifics or posts something that doesn't seem like it was forwarded to him by the marketing department. 

Whilst I'm certainly on the side that is very critical of DA2, and I slated it elsewhere in these very forums for all the reasons most people have, it wasn't an unqualified disaster. Some bits were very good, in my opinion. The negatives, for me, outweighed the positives though - mainly the bugbears of level reuse, woefully shoddy QA,irrelevancy of choice on plot outcome, waves etc - it's been said elsewhere.

Considering all that, I'd say that the OP has gone about as far as is allowed before getting sacked in admitting the faults of the game. It's unlikely that his post was not scrutinised, or at least controlled in some manner by higher management. You might think he has a duty to be honest, but I'm sure he is as far as he is able to be.Corporations like EA do not suffer trash talk of their products by employees, full stop. Even if its true. So learn to read the intent in a mesage that is, I think, pretty clearly worded. And again, DA2 wasn't a dead loss.

You might want to spare a though for the team at Bioware, who are probably more frustrated than you given the turn of events. I'm not suggesting they deserve special consideration, but if you spend 40 quid on a dress in the high street and don't like it, see how far you get trying to get the design changed, let alone a public apology from the lead on the project designing it.

Overall, DA2 was a huge, unrelenting, dissappointment to me, a confirmed Bioware fan for years. But what I want from this debacle is to remember the good bits - the voice acting and storys that I liked (like having Aveline in the game, a non classicly attractive woman being important, Merril, Isabella and the others) and to hope that DA3 is a better do all around. I am certainly not going to pre order DA3 anymore, or any other Bioware game until they restore my faith in them, (including SWTOR), but I havent given up hope that from this we can expect a raised game for DA3, and maybe, just maybe, we can see a return to form for Bioware after this travesty.

In the end though, if all you want is to have someone from Bioware publicy crucify the game they've worked on for the last few years,  well you've got a long wait ahead of you. Not even EA does that to it's employees. (it doesnt boost sales)

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ottemis wrote...
I would like to initiate a community-hug! (cause that's the kind of tree-hugging-hippy I sometimes am, yes =P) 

I'm the polar opposite of tree hugging hippies, and I always enjoy a nice hug.
*hug*

[Eliamor]

Hello, Mike.
Thank you for actually stepping out and talking to us fans. I don't have any criticism that haven't already been said and I agree at many points that the others have told you. Especially the excessive use of recycled environments. That was the only thing I really hated with the game since it made the dungeon part very boring. I don't want to be able to run through a new dungeon with my eyes closed, knowing exactly when to expect enemies.

I guess I really wanted to say that in the end, I really liked DA2 and how the story at many times reflected situations in the real world as it is today. The decisions you had to make and the companions stories kept me thinking about the game even when I didn't play it and I think that's a really good thing.

So, Thank you for listening to us, Mike. I hope you will be back some day with a DA3 that will blow people off their chairs!

[Everwarden]

Garki wrote...
Corporations like EA do not suffer trash talk of their products by employees, full stop. Even if its true. So learn to read the intent in a mesage that is, I think, pretty clearly worded.

I contend that the intent behind the message wasn't all that apologetic. It reads to me more like a bit of damage control before the hype train starts pushing out lots of marketing bull**** about Dragon Age 3, not a genuine thought from a designer wanting to fix the problems in a game. More because the letter is about a month late than due to the actual contents... because the contents of the post don't contain much concrete information at all. It's all very wishy-washy. 

Though, I am forced to admit that I am biased on the subject, so not much short of "Yes, the waves/re-used areas/lack of choice were all mistakes. I promise you, it won't happen again." would be enough for me. Though is that so much to ask?

I know it goes without saying that it -won't happen-, but is that really unreasonable for me as a customer to ask for? Maybe it is. *shrug*

I don't think your dress analogy holds up, because you can try a dress on prior to purchase, and know exactly what you're getting. Apples and oranges. 

Modifié par Everwarden, 28 mai 2011 - 01:56 .

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ottemis wrote...
I would like to initiate a community-hug! (cause that's the kind of tree-hugging-hippy I sometimes am, yes =P) 

I'm the polar opposite of tree hugging hippies, and I always enjoy a nice hug.
*hug*

May I join in, KOP? *Glomps*

And a major GLOMP from me to Mike.

[Ottemis]

Persephone wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ottemis wrote...
I would like to initiate a community-hug! (cause that's the kind of tree-hugging-hippy I sometimes am, yes =P) 

I'm the polar opposite of tree hugging hippies, and I always enjoy a nice hug.
*hug*

May I join in, KOP? *Glomps*

And a major GLOMP from me to Mike.

Yes yes! Mike *glomping*! =)

[Cutlass Jack]

Everwarden wrote...

I don't think your dress analogy holds up, because you can try a dress on prior to purchase, and know exactly what you're getting. Apples and oranges. 

No I can't try on a dress prior to purchase. I have a manly reputation to consider.

But I did try DA2 prior to purchase.

[TEWR]

Everwarden wrote...

Though, I am forced to admit that I am biased on the subject, so not much short of "Yes, the waves/re-used areas/lack of choice were all mistakes. I promise you, it won't happen again." would be enough for me. Though is that so much to ask?

That's why I suggested sending Mike Laidlaw or any other Bioware dev a PM if you really want a personal answer

[KnightofPhoenix]

Persephone wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ottemis wrote...
I would like to initiate a community-hug! (cause that's the kind of tree-hugging-hippy I sometimes am, yes =P) 

I'm the polar opposite of tree hugging hippies, and I always enjoy a nice hug.
*hug*

May I join in, KOP? *Glomps*

And a major GLOMP from me to Mike.

Do you even have to ask? :happy: