1373 réponses à ce sujet

[Everwarden]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

That's why I suggested sending Mike Laidlaw or any other Bioware dev a PM if you really want a personal answer

I suspect I'd just get told to...

[Zjarcal]

Tommy6860 wrote...

I agree with all of your sentiments in nearly all of the post you've made regarding DA2. I (personally) think the game wasn't good, but I will never ever say that Mike, Bioware or anyone involved with creating the game should say they made a mistake; that's just unfair really. They took the game in a direction where I didn't like it, but they did it with the intent to move in a different direction and attract a larger crowd. I think they know the consequences of the changes. Wanting them to admit a mistake is only for the purpose of one's self and not some good of the community. If they did do that, then what does that say to those who liked the game?

And this is why I respect this guy.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 28 mai 2011 - 02:07 .

[Persephone]

Everwarden wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

That's why I suggested sending Mike Laidlaw or any other Bioware dev a PM if you really want a personal answer

I suspect I'd just get told to...

You do remember the context of that quote, don't you?

[Garki]

Everwarden wrote...

Garki wrote...
Corporations like EA do not suffer trash talk of their products by employees, full stop. Even if its true. So learn to read the intent in a mesage that is, I think, pretty clearly worded.

I contend that the intent behind the message wasn't all that apologetic. It reads to me more like a bit of damage control before the hype train starts pushing out lots of marketing bull**** about Dragon Age 3, not a genuine thought from a designer wanting to fix the problems in a game. More because the letter is about a month late than due to the actual contents.

Though, I am forced to admit that I am biased on the subject, so not much short of "Yes, the waves/re-used areas/lack of choice were all mistakes. I promise you, it won't happen again." would be enough for me. Though is that so much to ask?

I know it goes without saying that it -won't happen-, but is that really unreasonable for me as a customer to ask for? Maybe it is. *shrug*

I don't think your dress analogy holds up, because you can try a dress on prior to purchase, and know exactly what you're getting. Apples and oranges. 

Well a dress was the first product worth 40 quid I thought of. Probably not the best choice in retrospect. Says more about me than anyone else I imagine. The point, buried in my dress analogy,  was that games are the only product that gets sold and gets huge and immediate feedback in forums and so on. The language used by the OP was pretty admissive of fault, in corporate terms. 

You need to remember that a forum post from Bioware speaks for the company. And the company here is EA. They do not allow off message output. Bioware is an EA subsidary now. Ive worked for EA, and Ive seen what happens to most of their 'subsidaries' so I'm not hopeful. To me, DA2 shows all the classic 'EA interference' signs that happens when EA takes over a company. ie market to the cheap shot. (EA actually are not that bad to work for in general, I've worked for far worse corps)

I dont think your demands are unreasonable at all - but I don't think you have a ghosts chance in hell of having them met. I would argue that the OP post was an admission of 'yes what we did there was wrong' - at least as far as he was able to say.

You might well be right on the PR front, that this letter may just be damage control before DA3.  That might not be the OP's choice, but it still might be true. Hence I am not pre ordering any Bioware games anymore - they only company I trusted for preorders. Until DA2. My only, very thin, hope is EA let DA3 get devloped properly.

[Mind-Locust]

With all honesty, I never had a problem with so call "streamlining" aka "dumbing down" - at least, that's how some refer to it - the mechanics of a RPG game. In fact, I found some of the abilities in DA: Origins unnecessary. Especially when many achieve similar effects. Sometimes, more is not better. The idea of "click a button and some cool happens" in my opinion has potential. AD&D isn't the only universe out there - I'll not elaborate further... before it becomes a flame war.

Three RPGs that I use as a benchmark in measuring everything else are Final Fantasy (the first one), Betrayal at Krondor, and Baldur's Gate II. None of these games are overly complex. In fact, combat mechanics wise, DA: Origin may have already been more complex than all three combined. However, It's the lute playing, the potential romance, and the airship that made them stand out. So, please think outside of the box.

I find too much emphasis has been placed on combat - considering most of the characters' abilities are even geared toward influencing only combat in one form or another. However, If you are going to focus on combat, then give me a mage that's different than the other mages. A fighter that has abilities no other fighter has in the game... strategic party formation is what I'm trying to get at. This particular RPG concept is so popular, you now often see them in mainstream action games. So, why has this element disappeared from real RPGs?

[Ama11Nda]

I hardly ever post on the forum, and that worries me a bit, because angry voices are always the loudest. I wanted to say thanks for a great game. I enjoyed it and appreciated the fantastic writing, and I'm sorry for not speaking up sooner and louder! I hope that the team "listens" to the positive as well as the negative, and that the character development and storytelling continue at the level we saw in DA2.

@Mind-Locust: Strategic play?  Succeeding on hard or nightmare is not possible with out strategic party choices and combat tactics.

Modifié par Ama11Nda, 28 mai 2011 - 02:23 .

[elmjuniper]

Thank you sir for regarding us fans with such respect to post your letter to us. And thank you for DA2. While it was lacking at some places I still loved it. Although...I cannot help to laugh when I find out what happens to hawke's mother because all I can think is: what sick mind came up with this?! Lol that said....I still cried. So sir, you and your team did something epic there. all the the best!

[Bryy_Miller]

Zjarcal wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...

I agree with all of your sentiments in nearly all of the post you've made regarding DA2. I (personally) think the game wasn't good, but I will never ever say that Mike, Bioware or anyone involved with creating the game should say they made a mistake; that's just unfair really. They took the game in a direction where I didn't like it, but they did it with the intent to move in a different direction and attract a larger crowd. I think they know the consequences of the changes. Wanting them to admit a mistake is only for the purpose of one's self and not some good of the community. If they did do that, then what does that say to those who liked the game?

And this is why I respect this guy.

Exactly. And the people that want him to apologize are the ones that want a very specific (i.e. THEIR) version of a video game. There's absolutely no reason for apologizing; DA2 didn't give cancer to anyone. It didn't explode while you drove it.

[AngelicMachinery]

Did somebody say Gryphons?

[BeefoTheBold]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Hey guys and gals,

As some of you have noted, I have been absent from these forums for a time, and my apologies for going dark, but I did not feel prepared to deal with some of the more personal attacks in a professional manner. And as a rule if I don't feel like I'm going to be professional, I don't post. You guys deserve better than that.

Now, while I haven't been posting, we have been listening. Several folks have been active on the forums and moderating the more extreme discussions, and more of us have been collecting your feedback, concerns, criticisms and the parts you enjoyed of DA II. This feedback is invaluable to us, and so I wanted to take a moment and say thank you.

I’d like to take this opportunity to address some lingering concerns and clear the air somewhat.

Following the launch of DA II, I did some interviews and some of you interpreted my statements to mean I was blind to the concerns that have been voiced repeatedly on these forums. That was never my intent, nor the message I wanted to convey.

I am absolutely aware of the concerns voiced here. Issues like level re-use, the implementation of wave combat, concerns about the narrative and significance of choice and so on have all been not only noted, but examined,
inspected and even aided me (and many, many others on the team) in formulating future plans. Further, I'm not only aware of the concerns, but I agree that there are aspects of DA II that not only can but must be improved in future installments. And that is precisely our intent.

Damn. Such a promising start to this response to the community. This first part of the post is everything that I, and many others, have been hoping for. It is an acknowledgment of some of the most deeply flawed elements of DA2.

As a long time fan of Bioware, please let me say first, thank you for these comments. As a person who is deeply frustrated with the changes Bioware has undergone in recent years, this piece of your post was music to my ears.

I also apologize for some of the more personal comments that have been directed your way by some of the more extreme elements of this community. If I have, in frustration, said any of them or been personal rather than professional in my criticism, my sincerest apologies.

Having said that, I must unfortunately conclude by the second half of your response to the community that you still are deeply missing the point of the vast majority of the criticism.

Mike Laidlaw wrote...
Finally, let me conclude by saying that while we are all aware of your concerns, I am very proud of what the team accomplished with Dragon Age II. I know many are advocating a "it wasn't broke, why did you try to fix it?" stance, and I absolutely understand why. From my perspective, as someone looking to the future and the DA franchise, I think that DA II moved us into a space that has more potential.

With all due respect, your perspective is not the one that matters. The customer's perspective is the important one. This paragraph that I just quoted is pretty much more nicely and more sensitively worded repetition of your infamous interview that has been rehashed to death.

Fixing the map repetition issue is like changing the curtains on the Titanic. Sure the curtains look better, but it doesn't change the underlying problem that the ship is sinking and people are abandoning it.

Your interview was essentially, "I didn't like Dragon Age Origins. People who disagree with me are wrong and I'm going to do things my way."

This post addressing the community simply screams that you haven't heard the feedback that you got. Your response is still, "I'm right and you're wrong."

Mike Laidlaw wrote...
A larger potential audience? Sure, who wouldn’t want more players diving into the experience of playing an RPG? More importantly, though, I believe that there's also more potential for rich stories, for deeper RPG mechanics, for more choice, and for something even more epic to come. The story events of DA II have fundamentally altered the political and power landscape of Thedas, in a way that's open to intrigue, drama and sweeping conflict in the
future, and evolves a world that, while still very much involving the Grey Wardens and Darkspawn, is about more than just that one struggle.

I love both basketball games and football games but for dramatically different reasons. If I'm in the mood for a good football game, it doesn't matter if the basketball game is the best damn basketball video game ever created if it wasn't the type of game that I wanted to play and bought and this is at the core of your deeply flawed current understanding of what it will take to make the community happy.

Larger potential audience is good, but not at the expense of changing your genre. Calling a bear a dog doesn't make it a dog. And if you treat the bear like it is a dog, you're going to get eaten...because it's still a bear.

And that's the problem that Bioware refuses to address. You have disrespect for your gaming audience's tastes. In your haste and zeal to reach a larger market, you aren't listening to your current one. Bioware got a free pass with the Mass Effect franchise being a Shooter game with RPG elements tacked on because we figured we'd still have a TRUE RPG like Dragon Age to fall back upon.

Bioware got a pass with turning the Knights of the Old Republic franchise from a TRUE RPG into an MMORPG.

Basically, you've used up your free passes. At least you have with THIS fan. I want TRUE RPGs like Dragon Age Origins. I don't WANT an "awesome button". I don't give a flying **** if DA3 has freaking griffons. Griffons aren't synonymous with a game being an RPG.

Rather than fixing the very limited set of issues that DAO had, you decided that DAO was trash and threw it completely out the window. Kudos for a bold move.

Now, you should have learned your lesson.

Mike Laidlaw wrote...
Hawke's story was a departure from the usual tale, and in crafting it and the game around it we learned a lot. Some from what worked, but even more from what didn't. Such is always the way. I hope that in the future we'll be able to
discuss how we're addressing your concerns and even solicit feedback from you on future plans in the process, but for now, I hope a simple thank you will suffice.

In the mean time, though, I stumbled across a few images I thought I might share with you folks. After all, there’s been a lot of requests to explore areas outside of Kirkwall, and I agree that seeing some more of the
Free Marches would be cool.

Also, there seem to be rather a lot of….are those griffins?
I think they might be!

Hawke's story was poorly written and rushed. It has innumerable holes and pacing problems. It completely failed to get me emotionally connected with anything that is going on. 

Worst of all, every game since DAO has basically shown zero respect to the decisions that were made in DAO. 

I do appreciate your taking the time to try and address the concerns you've heard and to get back to the community and say you have been listening.

Unfortunately, while you may have HEARD...you certainly aren't LISTENING.

[neppakyo]

*stands up and starts slowing clapping to BeefoTheBold's post*

Bravo! You said what I was thinking more eloquently than I possibly could. Kudos, sir. Kudos.

[Everwarden]

Persephone wrote...

You do remember the context of that quote, don't you?

I do not. Though it's completely typical of Gaider, so this is a case where I doubt the context would help much. Link the context?

[TEWR]

Everwarden wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

That's why I suggested sending Mike Laidlaw or any other Bioware dev a PM if you really want a personal answer

I suspect I'd just get told to...

so that's your reason for not even trying to find out via PM? I mean don't get me wrong your response is kinda funny (even if it's being used wrongly for this scenario) but you should still send a message asking it if I may say so.

And if I can't, well, I just did

[TEWR]

Larger potential audience is good, but not at the expense of changing your genre. Calling a bear a dog doesn't make it a dog. And if you treat the bear like it is a dog, you're going to get eaten...because it's still a bear.

I stopped reading after that because I died of laughter.

[BeefoTheBold]

neppakyo wrote...

*stands up and starts slowing clapping to BeefoTheBold's post*

Bravo! You said what I was thinking more eloquently than I possibly could. Kudos, sir. Kudos.

Thank you. I appreciate the nice words. I'm hoping that Mike is still reading this thread and sees my post. His response has me very worried that DA3 will be DA2 with a bit longer development time.

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ BeefoTheBold
Very well said and hence why like I said in my first post, I remain skeptical. In fact my skepticism grew because it's the same thing being told in a prettier way. But oh well, in many ways, I stopped caring.

[Morroian]

BeefoTheBold wrote...

With all due respect, your perspective is not the one that matters. The customer's perspective is the important one. 

With all due respect you are wrong, they are the professionals, while the customers opinion should be taken into account solely building or changing a game based on customer opinion is a recipe for disaster.

[Everwarden]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ BeefoTheBold
Very well said and hence why like I said in my first post, I remain skeptical. In fact my skepticism grew because it's the same thing being told in a prettier way. But oh well, in many ways, I stopped caring.

Skyrim is looking better and better every day, no?

[kglaser]

/drooling all over self over Skyrim

[Everwarden]

Morroian wrote...
 building or changing a game based on customer opinion is a recipe for disaster.

A recipe for profit, you mean?

These games are built to be sold -to- customers. If you create a product your target demographic doesn't want (Dragon Age 2 fits this bill perfectly), sales will reflect that. Now, I'm not saying Bioware should take to heart the design ideas of every guy willing to rant on the forums, but some complaints are near universal amongst their audience members... and they don't get it. 

[neppakyo]

Everwarden wrote...

Skyrim is looking better and better every day, no?

Yep. Its almost as pretty as TW2, not quite, but not bad at all! Skyrim is the reason ME3 is delayed till 2012. 

Can't wait for Skyrim either way

[Easterneagle]

Probably going to sound like a DA2 rage hater, but its my oppinion. If you hate these "Rants" then you may wishh to skip this comment.

Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuull****
They said there would be good stories and RPG elementes in Dragon Age 2.  I can't believe I was foolish enough to believe them,  so screw it all, DA is dead sadly. No amount of apologies will fix that. Sorry to all those who differed in oppinion, but that changed DAO into a ****ty peice of crap. Why can't I change my Companions armor, where is my favorate build,  why can't I use a sword if I am a rogue, and biggest of all, what the hell did you do to Anders. He's like a angry ten year old. Origins was  a masterpeice, which I could play for hours on end, but in DA2  it was hard to play for ten minutes, without getting bored at the repetative story, and boring combat. I don't normally do rants like this, but I felt like I had to here. For all those who enjoyed DA2, then keep enjoying,  but for people like me, If there are others like me, then well, don't actually know what to say, except... Goodbye Dragon Age, it was nice knowing you.


  Again if you liked DA2, then keep playing, we're all entitled to an oppinion, and I'll respect yours if you do mine.

[kglaser]

neppakyo wrote...

Skyrim is the reason ME3 is delayed till 2012. 

It's worth it.
And I hope they use the extra time to tweak, tweak, tweak..

[Lord_Valandil]

@ BeefoTheBold

I take my hat off to you. Kudos, kudos to you, sir.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Everwarden wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ BeefoTheBold
Very well said and hence why like I said in my first post, I remain skeptical. In fact my skepticism grew because it's the same thing being told in a prettier way. But oh well, in many ways, I stopped caring.

Skyrim is looking better and better every day, no?

It's The Witcher 2 for me actually, but I am checking Skyrim out. Looks pretty impressive.