1373 réponses à ce sujet

[Morroian]

Everwarden wrote...

Morroian wrote...
 building or changing a game based on customer opinion is a recipe for disaster.

A recipe for profit, you mean?

These games are built to be sold -to- customers. If you create a product your target demographic doesn't want (Dragon Age 2 fits this bill perfectly), sales will reflect that. Now, I'm not saying Bioware should take to heart the design ideas of every guy willing to rant on the forums, but some complaints are near universal amongst their audience members... and they don't get it. 

Yeah actually they do almost every dev on here that I've read that has talked about issues like the map re-use has at the very least implied they need to improve and hence that they were mistakes even in Mike original post here. The fact that this isn't good enough for you and you want something absolutely categoric is your problem not theirs and shows that you are guilty of exactly the same thing you are accusing them of, not listening.

[BeefoTheBold]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Everwarden wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ BeefoTheBold
Very well said and hence why like I said in my first post, I remain skeptical. In fact my skepticism grew because it's the same thing being told in a prettier way. But oh well, in many ways, I stopped caring.

Skyrim is looking better and better every day, no?

It's The Witcher 2 for me actually, but I am checking Skyrim out. Looks pretty impressive.

Witcher 2 for me too. Anyway, I'm gonna head out and play some of it now. Thanks for the comments guys. Have fun with your gaming!

[Lord_Valandil]

Morroian wrote...

Everwarden wrote...

Morroian wrote...
 building or changing a game based on customer opinion is a recipe for disaster.

A recipe for profit, you mean?

These games are built to be sold -to- customers. If you create a product your target demographic doesn't want (Dragon Age 2 fits this bill perfectly), sales will reflect that. Now, I'm not saying Bioware should take to heart the design ideas of every guy willing to rant on the forums, but some complaints are near universal amongst their audience members... and they don't get it. 

Yeah actually they do almost every dev on here that I've read that has talked about issues like the map re-use has at the very least implied they need to improve and hence that they were mistakes even in Mike original post here. The fact that this isn't good enough for you and you want something absolutely categoric is your problem not theirs and shows that you are guilty of exactly the same thing you are accusing them of, not listening.

What makes me feel uncomfortable is the fact that they (obviously) knew from the start of the shameless recycling, among other problems.
What were they expecting us to do? To swallow it and praise the game as the "best RPG made in ten years"?

[Zjarcal]

BeefoTheBold wrote...
His response has me very worried that DA3 will be DA2 with a bit longer development time.

Seeing how my main issue with DA2 is that it was rushed, that would please me VERY much!

While I disagree with pretty much your entire post, I do hope that Bioware does something that can please both you and me in the future. I doubt that will be the case, but I do hope for it.

[neppakyo]

Lord_Valandil wrote...

What were they expecting us to do? To swallow it and praise the game as the "best RPG made in ten years"?

They'd have to pay us like they did PC gamer for that to happen.

[Ottemis]

BeefoTheBold wrote...

With all due respect, your perspective is not the one that matters. The customer's perspective is the important one. 

If they want to appeal to a different group and take it away from the original genre, which they seem to want.. the people they're not trying to reach would be the ones not interested in such change. Which as I understand it, is you right?

They picked a direction and headed that way, would seem highly unlikely to me that they now turn round again.

They gave 'us' a classic RPG, then they gave 'us' something different. Us being whoever is attracted to the specific genre-nuance. To me, whether or not something is 'classed' in one genre or the other doesn't really matter asmuch as the elements a studio deems most important to 'keep' in future games, or rather what they keep as their signature.
An RPG hybrid. For me, DA2 works to that extend.

I am asmuch part of the community as you are I would say, did they not listen to 'the community' because they chose not to do what you wanted?

[Cutlass Jack]

Everwarden wrote...

I do not. Though it's completely typical of Gaider, so this is a case where I doubt the context would help much. Link the context?

Impossible to directly link since it was said in a PM, not a public post. But essentially a user PM'ed Gaider directly to complain about Persephone posting positive things in a thread he didn't agree with. David's line was meant to imply he might have been overreacting a little. To which the user of course overreacted by making it the centerpiece of an unrelated rant about all he found wrong with DA2.

Obviously it makes a hilarious quote when taken completely out of context. And was pretty funny in context from what I recall.


But it was not a response to a serious question about Dragon Age or at all related to his work on the series. So who knows, if you sent a PM asking a serious question, and were polite about it, you might get an answer. Or at least a polite reply.

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 28 mai 2011 - 03:18 .

[Lord_Valandil]

Ottemis wrote...

BeefoTheBold wrote...

With all due respect, your perspective is not the one that matters. The customer's perspective is the important one. 

If they want to appeal to a different group and take it away from the original genre, which they seem to want.. the people they're not trying to reach would be the ones not interested in such change. Which as I understand it, is you right?

They picked a direction and headed that way, would seem highly unlikely to me that they now turn round again.

They gave 'us' a classic RPG, then they gave 'us' something different. Us being whoever is attracted to the specific genre-nuance. To me, whether or not something is 'classed' in one genre or the other doesn't really matter asmuch as the elements a studio deems most important to 'keep' in future games, or rather what they keep as their signature.
An RPG hybrid. For me, DA2 works to that extend.

I am asmuch part of the community as you are I would say, did they not listen to 'the community' because they chose not to do what you wanted?

I think you're missing the point.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Everwarden wrote...

I do not. Though it's completely typical of Gaider, so this is a case where I doubt the context would help much. Link the context?

Impossible to directly link since it was said in a PM, not a public post. But essentially a user PM'ed Gaider directly to complain about Persephone posting positive things in a thread he didn't agree with. David's line was meant to imply he might have been overreacting a little. To which the user of course overreacted by making it the centerpiece of an unrelated rant about all he found wrong with DA2.

Obviously it makes a hilarious quote when taken completely out of context. And was pretty funny in context from what I recall.


But it was not a response to a serious question about Dragon Age or at all related to his work on the series. So who knows, if you sent a PM asking a serious question, and were polite about it, you might get an answer. Or at least a polite reply.

How did I miss all this?

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Everwarden wrote...

I do not. Though it's completely typical of Gaider, so this is a case where I doubt the context would help much. Link the context?

Impossible to directly link since it was said in a PM, not a public post. But essentially a user PM'ed Gaider directly to complain about Persephone posting positive things in a thread he didn't agree with. David's line was meant to imply he might have been overreacting a little. To which the user of course overreacted by making it the centerpiece of an unrelated rant about all he found wrong with DA2.

Obviously it makes a hilarious quote when taken completely out of context. And was pretty funny in context from what I recall.


But it was not a response to a serious question about Dragon Age or at all related to his work on the series. So who knows, if you sent a PM asking a serious question, and were polite about it, you might get an answer. Or at least a polite reply.

How did I miss all this?

I even asked for a t-shirt with that line.

Gaider

[KnightofPhoenix]

Was this recent or something?

[Zjarcal]

About a month and a half ago probably.

[kglaser]

Lord_Valandil wrote...

What makes me feel uncomfortable is the fact that they (obviously) knew from the start of the shameless recycling, among other problems.
What were they expecting us to do? To swallow it and praise the game as the "best RPG made in ten years"?

No, I think EA was thinking, "Let's hope they buy it and we can get $$$!" <_<

[Alozaps]

BeefoTheBold, great post.  Even here Laidlaw continues to subtly diss and downplay Origins.

----> Origins was just this, while Dragon Age 2 is a whole lotta' this, this and that! <---- the attitude that Laidlaw has always had since release date.

... when ironically Origins is the superior game.  Why?  Because it was thorough and unique; a rare gem found in a sea of mediocrity and forgetability.  Unfortunately, Dragon Age 2 fell into this sea the moment they decided to destroy the integrity of the franchise.

A tragedy.

Modifié par Alozaps, 28 mai 2011 - 03:24 .

[Addai]

Everwarden wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ BeefoTheBold
Very well said and hence why like I said in my first post, I remain skeptical. In fact my skepticism grew because it's the same thing being told in a prettier way. But oh well, in many ways, I stopped caring.

Skyrim is looking better and better every day, no?

No!  Skyrim is going to be awful!  Terrible!  An offense to the gaming community!  I'm not going to like it at all.

[/crushed expectations ward]

[Zanallen]

Everwarden wrote...

A recipe for profit, you mean?

These games are built to be sold -to- customers. If you create a product your target demographic doesn't want (Dragon Age 2 fits this bill perfectly), sales will reflect that. Now, I'm not saying Bioware should take to heart the design ideas of every guy willing to rant on the forums, but some complaints are near universal amongst their audience members... and they don't get it. 

No. Different people want different things. A lot of the changes made with DA 2 were in response to complaints about DA:O. You can't please everyone. I don't think you should even try. Do what you feel is correct and do it to the best of your ability. Trying to please everyone is just bound to fail. (That's one of the major complaints with DA2, no?)

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Was this recent or something?

This is the thread where the quote came up:

http://social.biowar...5/index/7169608

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zjarcal wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Was this recent or something?

This is the thread where the quote came up:

http://social.biowar...5/index/7169608

That looks vaguely familiar, but I probably didn't bother to read it then.
Thanks for linking!

[Ottemis]

Lord_Valandil wrote...

Ottemis wrote...

BeefoTheBold wrote...

With all due respect, your perspective is not the one that matters. The customer's perspective is the important one. 

If they want to appeal to a different group and take it away from the original genre, which they seem to want.. the people they're not trying to reach would be the ones not interested in such change. Which as I understand it, is you right?

They picked a direction and headed that way, would seem highly unlikely to me that they now turn round again.

They gave 'us' a classic RPG, then they gave 'us' something different. Us being whoever is attracted to the specific genre-nuance. To me, whether or not something is 'classed' in one genre or the other doesn't really matter asmuch as the elements a studio deems most important to 'keep' in future games, or rather what they keep as their signature.
An RPG hybrid. For me, DA2 works to that extend.

I am asmuch part of the community as you are I would say, did they not listen to 'the community' because they chose not to do what you wanted?

I think you're missing the point.

No, I don't think I am.
You referr to Laidlaw stating his opinion, that does not exclude them/him from listening to the community when a part is for and another is against, does it? Having said that, is he not as entitled to having an opinion like any of us? Or does that automaticly make him biassed. Do you believe he solely decided the direction the game was going in? I don't. He obviously supports it though, but then what's wrong with that aside from disappointing some fans while making others happy; which was inevitable anyways.

As said before, they're going this way, which is not everyone's preferred way.
I think the only good thing you can EVER do is pick a side and head that direction with conviction. Full-out.

[neppakyo]

Zanallen wrote...

No. Different people want different things. A lot of the changes made with DA 2 were in response to complaints about DA:O. You can't please everyone. I don't think you should even try. Do what you feel is correct and do it to the best of your ability. Trying to please everyone is just bound to fail. (That's one of the major complaints with DA2, no?)

They took those complaints, enlarged them, exaggerated them and then threw out almost everything in Origins, doing a 180 to come out with DA2.

You don't retcon an entire game and redo it in an 18 month dev period. You build on the original and improve it. They failed. 'nuff said.

[Beerfish]

The main complaint items are well documented but don't let an overly vocal nasty group have you make the next installment into the witcher or "DAO 2 the rehash of the warden". A lot of DA2 was very good, some of the very best companions and quests that BioWare has done and the framed narrative worked just fine.

[Addai]

Zjarcal wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Was this recent or something?

This is the thread where the quote came up:

http://social.biowar...5/index/7169608

Zjarcal, your avatar terrifies me.

[Everwarden]

Zanallen wrote...

No. Different people want different things. A lot of the changes made with DA 2 were in response to complaints about DA:O. You can't please everyone. I don't think you should even try. Do what you feel is correct and do it to the best of your ability. Trying to please everyone is just bound to fail. (That's one of the major complaints with DA2, no?)

I'm not arguing you try to please everyone, I'm arguing you try to please the majority of your -target audience-. Bioware tried to get a new, better audience and in the process gave the metaphorical finger to their loyal fans. Bad, bad idea. 

[Zanallen]

neppakyo wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

No. Different people want different things. A lot of the changes made with DA 2 were in response to complaints about DA:O. You can't please everyone. I don't think you should even try. Do what you feel is correct and do it to the best of your ability. Trying to please everyone is just bound to fail. (That's one of the major complaints with DA2, no?)

They took those complaints, enlarged them, exaggerated them and then threw out almost everything in Origins, doing a 180 to come out with DA2.

You don't retcon an entire game and redo it in an 18 month dev period. You build on the original and improve it. They failed. 'nuff said.

That's why Bioware shouldn't listen to the whiners on the forums. They should go off their own data and do what they want to do. Don't like it? Don't buy the game.