1373 réponses à ce sujet

[Zanallen]

Serpieri Nei wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

and how does that tie into the templar and mages?

Not sure. But as I said earlier, I don't know when the DLC is supposed to take place either. What does Golems have to do with the Blight?

Dwarves have been fighting the Darkspawn continuously in the deeproads and created a weapon of Stone and Iron to fight them

Golems, capitalized. As in the DLC. That was about helping a dwarf find his missing brother. It had nothing to do with the plot of Origins.

[Zanallen]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Except the First Warden is lookign beyond the Anderfels, for instance Amaranthine.

The Wardens are what they decide they are. What they are "supposed" to be is irrelevent (and usually a bunch of propaganda). Right now, the First Warden has political ambitions and wants the wardens to be important politically, blight or no.

And it'll make for an interesting plot when the First pisses off enough countries to get the Wardens beat back to the Anderfels.

[AngryFrozenWater]

erynnar wrote...

Maverick827 wrote...

BeefoTheBold wrote...

With all due respect, your perspective is not the one that matters. The customer's perspective is the important one.

With no due respect, not only are you incorrect, but you are not all customers and thus probably shouldn't speak as if you are. You know of maybe one thousand disgruntled fans (on the internet, no less) out of millions of consumers: to believe this number is significant is simply ignorant.

This post addressing the community simply screams that you haven't heard the feedback that you got. Your response is still, "I'm right and you're wrong."

As opposed to the malcontents on this forum's brilliant argument of "you're wrong and we're right?"

I love both basketball games and football games but for dramatically different reasons. If I'm in the mood for a good football game, it doesn't matter if the basketball game is the best damn basketball video game ever created if it wasn't the type of game that I wanted to play and bought and this is at the core of your deeply flawed current understanding of what it will take to make the community happy.

The more apt analogy would be that you wanted a football game, and you bought a football game, but it was professional football and you wanted college football. Actually, the best analogy would be no analogy at all, but instead an actual argument.

And that's the problem that Bioware refuses to address. You have disrespect for your gaming audience's tastes. In your haste and zeal to reach a larger market, you aren't listening to your current one. Bioware got a free pass with the Mass Effect franchise being a Shooter game with RPG elements tacked on because we figured we'd still have a TRUE RPG like Dragon Age to fall back upon.

Again, why do you speak as if you speak for everyone? Why are you so self-important?

Bioware got a pass with turning the Knights of the Old Republic franchise from a TRUE RPG into an MMORPG.

Yeah, SWTOR isn't a true RPG! It's football! Or, uh, a bear? I forget, but it's definitely one of those things! Are you from Scotland, by chance?

Griffons aren't synonymous with a game being an RPG.

I'm willing to bet neither are anything that you believe are synonymous with RPGs.

Hawke's story was poorly written and rushed. It has innumerable holes and pacing problems. It completely failed to get me emotionally connected with anything that is going on.

Hawke's story was well written and compellingly paced. It had no plot holes, and completely got me emotionally connected with everything that was going on. I can start to see why you guys act the way you do: it's easier to just state things without any evidence or argument at all.

And that you think your number is more significant is just as ignorant. Let's face it, neither camp has any hard numbers to back up the "we're the majority." The closest we have is sales tallies. After the initial pre-order based on DAO's success they drop significantly. Still, not hard evidence, but a hell of a lot more compelling than just saying that the people here on the forums are the loud, whining minority.

Nice fantasies, but hardly closer to being true. We won't know the majority until DA3.

Let's put it another way: If everone was happy with DA2 then Mr Laidlaw wouldn't need to start this thread and he wouldn't have any emotional issues with the critique of a vocal minority.

[AngelicMachinery]

I hope they're speed gryphons.

[Cutlass Jack]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

I hope they're speed gryphons.

I believe they're stoned gryphons. Bring munchies.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zanallen wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Except the First Warden is lookign beyond the Anderfels, for instance Amaranthine.

The Wardens are what they decide they are. What they are "supposed" to be is irrelevent (and usually a bunch of propaganda). Right now, the First Warden has political ambitions and wants the wardens to be important politically, blight or no.

And it'll make for an interesting plot when the First pisses off enough countries to get the Wardens beat back to the Anderfels.

Considering what's happening now, there's a lot of opportunity for him in fact.

One example is Avernus saying that the taint can unlock powers that counter demons.

[erynnar]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I was actually happy that Hawke was not a Warden, and that the concept was about a low life refugee becoming something big via his talents, skills and brains.

Yea, awesome concept. The execution left much to be desired however.

I agree, the story was a great idea. The excution...not so much.

For Maverick let me put in some plot holes...just so I don't get accused of yelling fire in the DA2 theater of love (and yes, I love that people loved it, but I am tired as hell of being accused of not loving it because the story was really meta and well written).  The three year gaps in Hawke's life, the fade to black where **** in the city boils while Hawke does what? Lies in a coma? Goes off to find that there's an invisible wall that surrounds Kirkwall and it take three years to figure out there is no door and she has been playing a mime in a glass box? I mean, what exactly was she doing?

Oh wait, this is told in flashback by a compulsively lying dwarf! I forgot, he could actually be making the whole damn thing up out of his ass. That is a big plot hole right there (and something I was taught in creative writing class and other professional writers say is a no no. Flashback is very hard to pull off well. Nice try on something new  BioWare, but now I see why my teachers didn't even like flashbacks in small doses).  Neat in concept, sucky in real story value.

Um, let's see...how about my mage Hawke? Oh wow.  Yeah, I cast spells in front of Cullen, a commander of the templars. I am casting spells right and left. Now, you could say that he is being bribed by Varric, but Cullen is so gung-ho after his little stint with Uldread he was sent to Kirkwall. Add to that, if you say "I have friends who are mages!"  And he goes off yelling that mages are not like you and me...afte I have proven I am a bloody mage, as  I stand there with a friggin' magical staff on my back, and robes that look like an Circle mage...yeah. Hawke's story was so well written there absolutely no plot holes ever....EVAH!   Oh please, let's not go into the it was such a tight story. It was a disjointed, barely held together three short story sampler. And for more plot holes...go read my other posts where I mention them (more holes than the Blooming Rose is my running joke).

Look, BioWare tried something new. I liked the idea very much. Or the three ideas, very much. I just wish they had picked one (I personally am dying to play around that thaig and figure out if dwarves did magic at one point) and developed it so my Hawke could be involved in. So, kudos. for trying something different!  I am excited to see what BioWare does with DA3, hopefully taking the best of DAO and DA2 and putting them together.

[neppakyo]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

One example is Avernus saying that the taint can unlock powers that counter demons.

I never knew crotches were that powerful.

[LobselVith8]

Zanallen wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

What about the arling of Amaranthine? It can be governed by the Hero of Ferelden, who can be a mage no less. I'm certain that a mage being a high noble with lesser nobles swearing fealty, having an army, governing a city, and commanding a famous order throughout the nation would be addressed by the Chantry and the Order of Templars at the end of DA2, particularly if he's romantically involved with an apostate.

Amaranthine was given to the Wardens to serve as their base within Ferelden and as a punishment for Howe's treachery.

Amaranthine was given by Teyrn Fergus Cousland (which is apparent from the fact that he can give a portion of it back to Nathaniel Howe) and it's an arling that is politically governed by the Grey Wardens. The First Warden wants it to succeed because, as Mistress Woolsey points out, it can establish a precedent that Wardens are important even when there isn't a Blight. It establishes the Warden-Commander with authority over the city, the military of the arling, and authority over law, land, and nobles. It breakes the rule that Wardens aren't supposed to be political.

Zanallen wrote...

The rest has little to do with the topic at hand, but I suppose I can take a crack at it. If the mage warden is the Hero of Ferelden, I doubt that the chantry would take a shot at them. That would risk pissing off an entire nation of people. Other than that, there seems to be an understanding that a mage warden is warden first and mage second.

You'd think there would be more of a comment given the Chantry view on mages and magic (and how "magic must serve man, and not rule over him"), considering the Hero of Ferelden is still a mage who can be seen as "blessed by the Maker" and has unprecedented political and military power in an Andrastian nation. It's another precedent.

[MalcolmM]

@erynnar

Yeah, SWTOR isn't a true RPG! It's football! Or, uh, a bear? I forget, but it's definitely one of those things! Are you from Scotland, by chance?

I'm from Scotland and I fail to see the point in that comment/question.

Modifié par MalcolmM, 28 mai 2011 - 05:42 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

neppakyo wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

One example is Avernus saying that the taint can unlock powers that counter demons.

I never knew crotches were that powerful.

Of course, you never met me.

[neppakyo]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

neppakyo wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

One example is Avernus saying that the taint can unlock powers that counter demons.

I never knew crotches were that powerful.

Of course, you never met me.

True true.

Is this where we break into song and dance about the taint? Maybe Spider-man musical style?

[Shimmer_Gloom]

The amount of openness you guys have with the fans is always surprising to me. I'm a huge Bioware fan and this, to me, is like George Lukas saying 'maybe Han shooting first was a bad idea.' I'd never expect a developer to admit that a product was less than a perfect expression of their artistic creativity.

I also respect staying out of the forums so as not to bicker with fans. You're a cool cat Mr. Laidlaw. And Barret and Epler are cool too.

Keep on being awesome man.

[LobselVith8]

highcastle wrote...

I thought I did. It's canon that BM is learned through demons. This is how you get the spec in Origins. 

It's canon it can be learned through demons, but even the scholars speculate that the Arlathan elves could have taught the Tevinter mages how to use blood magic. We also know that Jowan learned blood magic through the books in the library, and Anders can ask Merrill if she learned blood magic on her own without the aid of a demon.

highcastle wrote...

Tahrone mentions it in DA2. Merrill mentions it. Anders mentions it. "You look a demon in the eye and you accept its offer," he says to Fenris.

You're addressing instances where blood magic is learned from a demon and ignoring the fact that we see that mages can learn it without a demon.

highcastle wrote...

That Hawke isn't shown accepting the offer is irrelevent. It occurs off-screen, a case of gameplay and story segregation.

Or he learned it from Merrill, or books, like Jowan did (and exactly how the Orlesian Warden can).

highcastle wrote...

Likewise, the SH abilities come from a spirit. Hence the spirit portion of the name. This was established in Origins via conversations with Wynne. 

No, Wynne is an abomination. The craft of being a Spirit Healer means that these particular mages can get the aid of a spirit to enpower certain spells, but they don't merge with the spirits in the way that a Spirit of Faith had merged with Wynne.

highcastle wrote...

Spirits do not get along with demons. Evidence: Justice's reactions to the Baronness in Awakening. Justice's reaction to Torpor in DA2. I don't see a demon and spirit coinciding peacefully. I don't see them working together, as they'd have to in some small way for Hawke to be both a blood made and a spirit healer.

Except you're ignoring that blood mages don't need to work with demons. In fact, it's canon that some mages turn to blood magic because they see it as the only form of magic that's truly free:

"The effects can be vile, but this specialization isn’t limited to madmen and monsters. Many see it as the only form of magic that is truly free, because it’s tied to the physical, not favors to spirits or demons."

[TheTranzor]

neppakyo wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

One example is Avernus saying that the taint can unlock powers that counter demons.

I never knew crotches were that powerful.

It's not the amount of the taint you have, it's how you use it. 

[Serpieri Nei]

Zanallen wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

and how does that tie into the templar and mages?

Not sure. But as I said earlier, I don't know when the DLC is supposed to take place either. What does Golems have to do with the Blight?

Dwarves have been fighting the Darkspawn continuously in the deeproads and created a weapon of Stone and Iron to fight them

Golems, capitalized. As in the DLC. That was about helping a dwarf find his missing brother. It had nothing to do with the plot of Origins.

It does - if I was going down to the deeproads - I wouldn't of send a letter to a powerful templar or mage or human noble. Like, Jace I would seek the aid from the greatest Warden to live in hundreds of years. 

[TheTranzor]

erynnar wrote...


I agree, the story was a great idea. The excution...not so much.

For Maverick let me put in some plot holes...just so I don't get accused of yelling fire in the DA2 theater of love (and yes, I love that people loved it, but I am tired as hell of being accused of not loving it because the story was really meta and well written).  The three year gaps in Hawke's life, the fade to black where **** in the city boils while Hawke does what? Lies in a coma? Goes off to find that there's an invisible wall that surrounds Kirkwall and it take three years to figure out there is no door and she has been playing a mime in a glass box? I mean, what exactly was she doing?

Oh wait, this is told in flashback by a compulsively lying dwarf! I forgot, he could actually be making the whole damn thing up out of his ass. That is a big plot hole right there (and something I was taught in creative writing class and other professional writers say is a no no. Flashback is very hard to pull off well. Nice try on something new  BioWare, but now I see why my teachers didn't even like flashbacks in small doses).  Neat in concept, sucky in real story value.

Um, let's see...how about my mage Hawke? Oh wow.  Yeah, I cast spells in front of Cullen, a commander of the templars. I am casting spells right and left. Now, you could say that he is being bribed by Varric, but Cullen is so gung-ho after his little stint with Uldread he was sent to Kirkwall. Add to that, if you say "I have friends who are mages!"  And he goes off yelling that mages are not like you and me...afte I have proven I am a bloody mage, as  I stand there with a friggin' magical staff on my back, and robes that look like an Circle mage...yeah. Hawke's story was so well written there absolutely no plot holes ever....EVAH!   Oh please, let's not go into the it was such a tight story. It was a disjointed, barely held together three short story sampler. And for more plot holes...go read my other posts where I mention them (more holes than the Blooming Rose is my running joke).

Look, BioWare tried something new. I liked the idea very much. Or the three ideas, very much. I just wish they had picked one (I personally am dying to play around that thaig and figure out if dwarves did magic at one point) and developed it so my Hawke could be involved in. So, kudos. for trying something different!  I am excited to see what BioWare does with DA3, hopefully taking the best of DAO and DA2 and putting them together.

Very good points, as usual. 

Flashbacks can work in storytelling if executed with care... for the most part, I liked how "Lost" made the flashback a big part of their storytelling foundation for most of the show.  It worked because they executed well.

The concept of having time pass between playable time in game would have worked fine in DA2, and in fact, would have been a great departure from the norm save for one small thing... Nothing changes in Kirkwall between fades!  We have no sense that things have been happening to Hawke during the in-between times.  It's like you say, Hawke was lying in a coma... maybe the story was supposed to be like the movie Awakenings.  You know, Hawke only comes to life for brief moments of lucidity then goes back to just catching a ball while comatose. 

If we got a sense that Kirkwall has changed... vendors in different places, houses not existing where they used to, new houses or new parts of the city being built, Hawke and companions age and change with time, etc.... things would have worked better.  Also, we needed a sense that Hawke was living his/her life between the brief windows of playable time... what's happened with his/her relationships, have friendships with companions grown, or have they grown further apart?  What types of adventures have Hawke and his companions taken part in... what kinds of politics have they been involved with, etc.  We get none of that... it's like those 3 years between fades don't exist for Hawke, which is really disappointing.

Had we got a better sense of time passage and life continuing between those fades, the type of storytelling they went with would have worked a lot better for sure.

[Garki]

Everwarden wrote...

Morroian wrote...
 building or changing a game based on customer opinion is a recipe for disaster.

A recipe for profit, you mean?

These games are built to be sold -to- customers. If you create a product your target demographic doesn't want (Dragon Age 2 fits this bill perfectly), sales will reflect that. Now, I'm not saying Bioware should take to heart the design ideas of every guy willing to rant on the forums, but some complaints are near universal amongst their audience members... and they don't get it. 

Britains Got Talent.

Or Xfactor. Take your pick.

[craigdolphin]

Mike,

I draw a clear distinction between improved 'responsiveness of combat' and the (IMO) ridiculously excessive combat animations. For example: in-place cartwheels, and the always risible exploding enemies.

I hope that your view that people general liked improved responsiveness does not extend to the over-the-top animations.

And I would like to add one other thing you didn't touch on. The conversation system. I hated the approach taken to remove my ability to initiate conversations outside the home base. For me, it made the NPC's feel 'vaguely real' when at their 'home', but they lost their sense of being 'people' whenever we were on the road. Yes banter helps. Yes, triggered conversations could be tripped. But in both situtations, the pc has no say about the situation. No initiative is provided for the PC. When out and about, the NPC's become little more than walking combat accessories, cardboard cutouts of themselves. This is probably the most significant factor in my feeling rather grumpy about the NPC's overall. After experiencing both systems, DAO's was far better at making the characters feel more real.

And one last thing: please stop putting banter triggers immediately adjacent to fight triggers. Nothing as annoying as hearing the first couple of words of a banter before suddenly being thrown into combat and missing the rest of the banter conversation.

[In Exile]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Even disciples?

I personally would love a DA spin-off with a Darkspawn Disciple Protagonist working under "The Seeker".

Absolutely. The idea of sentient darkspawn never resonated with me. Under than the fact that it underscored the need for their immediate extermination even more, and made the neccesary (from the PoV of elves, dwarves and men) genocide of the darkspawn all the more tragic.

But since we most probably will never have Elven or Dwarven PCs, what are the chances of a Darkspawn one.

They're ugly. Games tend not to give ugly protagonists.

[fightright2]

Mr. Laidlaw,

This took me a long time to post since I felt that I needed to read all the posts to catch up on what has been pointed out since I came late to the party. And it took forever since it's been pouring in so fast.

I'd like to say first off, thank you for having the courage to come here knowing the pool still has a few angry sharks ready for blood as well as many eager fans demanding answers to various questions you might not have the answers to yet. [Since DA is a collaborating effort from all those involved, it's only natural to assume you can only reveal to us what has been agreed/decided upon so thereby you are limited to what you can say.] 

Knowing that many will still hold on to skepticism for their own reasons. [Not to say they aren't valid.] Still, you can't always please everyone. And while I do hope that many of the issues are ironed out enough for all crowds, I understand it's a big order to try to fill so please forgive me for being someone that hopes for the best but prepares for
the worst. I rather not presume and get let down in the end. Don't take it personally, I am like that in general.


But I do understand why many people were disappointed in DA2, as I was one of them, and yet I understand the reason behind DA2's move as using the building of oppressed mages as the focal point in which Thedas is changed forever. It does indeed open up to a broader scope of future potential, that much I agree. I can see just how it could effect the surrounding countries and how it may domino down the way.

I just wish it had been executed in a different manner.

Still, I will say, for me, the effort was achieved in entertaining me. I wouldn't say it was a great game but being a fan of the DA world, I was happy to delve into it, even if it wasn't what I fully expected.
Still, I liked it somewhat enough to enjoy it for what it is. I have came to this conclusion of this moreso from playing a second time through. I am liking it far better this time around.

Though, I have to admit I am greatly saddened to hear that there will no longer be a silent protagonist in the series. But I do hope the paraphrasing will be fixed to clarify just what exactly our characters will be saying in the future. That for me, was the biggest hinderance in DA2, especially as someone who will sorely miss the sound of my own voice for any future characters. This is paramount for me to connect to my character as an RPG'er. So please, please consider that as well.

I really believe toggles would be the answer for many of us. Please
try to implement them in. As RPG'ers it doesn't need to be said that we
like options. The more, the merrier.

Additionally, I would like to say thank you for your honesty concerning the matter of the griffins
as being only a statue as of now. I know many really want them fully interactive somehow in the future. Count me among that crowd!

Lastly, I also have to commend you for taking the beating to some extent to hear the feedback and taking the time to connect with the fans. I look forward to engrossing myself into Thedas in the future and hope to hell time is on your side this time round. I still have hope.

M.

[erynnar]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

erynnar wrote...

Maverick827 wrote...

BeefoTheBold wrote...

With all due respect, your perspective is not the one that matters. The customer's perspective is the important one.

With no due respect, not only are you incorrect, but you are not all customers and thus probably shouldn't speak as if you are. You know of maybe one thousand disgruntled fans (on the internet, no less) out of millions of consumers: to believe this number is significant is simply ignorant.

This post addressing the community simply screams that you haven't heard the feedback that you got. Your response is still, "I'm right and you're wrong."

As opposed to the malcontents on this forum's brilliant argument of "you're wrong and we're right?"

I love both basketball games and football games but for dramatically different reasons. If I'm in the mood for a good football game, it doesn't matter if the basketball game is the best damn basketball video game ever created if it wasn't the type of game that I wanted to play and bought and this is at the core of your deeply flawed current understanding of what it will take to make the community happy.

The more apt analogy would be that you wanted a football game, and you bought a football game, but it was professional football and you wanted college football. Actually, the best analogy would be no analogy at all, but instead an actual argument.

And that's the problem that Bioware refuses to address. You have disrespect for your gaming audience's tastes. In your haste and zeal to reach a larger market, you aren't listening to your current one. Bioware got a free pass with the Mass Effect franchise being a Shooter game with RPG elements tacked on because we figured we'd still have a TRUE RPG like Dragon Age to fall back upon.

Again, why do you speak as if you speak for everyone? Why are you so self-important?

Bioware got a pass with turning the Knights of the Old Republic franchise from a TRUE RPG into an MMORPG.

Yeah, SWTOR isn't a true RPG! It's football! Or, uh, a bear? I forget, but it's definitely one of those things! Are you from Scotland, by chance?

Griffons aren't synonymous with a game being an RPG.

I'm willing to bet neither are anything that you believe are synonymous with RPGs.

Hawke's story was poorly written and rushed. It has innumerable holes and pacing problems. It completely failed to get me emotionally connected with anything that is going on.

Hawke's story was well written and compellingly paced. It had no plot holes, and completely got me emotionally connected with everything that was going on. I can start to see why you guys act the way you do: it's easier to just state things without any evidence or argument at all.

And that you think your number is more significant is just as ignorant. Let's face it, neither camp has any hard numbers to back up the "we're the majority." The closest we have is sales tallies. After the initial pre-order based on DAO's success they drop significantly. Still, not hard evidence, but a hell of a lot more compelling than just saying that the people here on the forums are the loud, whining minority.

Nice fantasies, but hardly closer to being true. We won't know the majority until DA3.

Let's put it another way: If everone was happy with DA2 then Mr Laidlaw wouldn't need to start this thread and he wouldn't have any emotional issues with the critique of a vocal minority.

I did wonder that myself. Glad that they are taking our concerns to heart. I hope they'll forgive me if I remain hopeful, yet skeptical.

Modifié par erynnar, 28 mai 2011 - 06:30 .

[Garki]

I have to say, if DA3 has Griffons in it, I wont be buying. That idea is just rank beyond belief. 'Last of the Griffons'? Its like someone watched 'Lassie Come Home' one too many times. The idea the Griffins are dead and gone is interesting, the fact that there might be one 'last of the Griffons' knocking about waiting for some emo warden to find them is just laughable.

[erynnar]

TheTranzor wrote...

neppakyo wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

One example is Avernus saying that the taint can unlock powers that counter demons.

I never knew crotches were that powerful.

It's not the amount of the taint you have, it's how you use it. 

Truer words were never spoken!

[Zanallen]

Garki wrote...

I have to say, if DA3 has Griffons in it, I wont be buying. That idea is just rank beyond belief. 'Last of the Griffons'? Its like someone watched 'Lassie Come Home' one too many times. The idea the Griffins are dead and gone is interesting, the fact that there might be one 'last of the Griffons' knocking about waiting for some emo warden to find them is just laughable.

I hope we find feral, tainted griffons that we have to put down.