1373 réponses à ce sujet

[Feanor_II]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...
A larger potential audience? Sure, who wouldn’t want more players diving into the experience of playing an RPG? More importantly, though, I believe that there's also more potential for rich stories, for deeper RPG mechanics, for more choice,

Mr Laidlaw with all fue respect, I think that the main problem of DA2 is the oversimplification. I can' appreciate any deepe mechanics in the direction DA2 has taken.

This is a matter of personal prefference, but what I want from DA series is rich, deep and complex RPG with multiple variables, factors to take into account and manage:
- Party approval, much better than fried/rival system
- Gifts
- Protection/fatigue balance
- More habilities and talents
- Crafting
- Party equipment
- There was more flexibility when it came to use weapons, any character could use bows, swords staves, dagger, axes.... with different fortune depending on their habilities, now I find that the 2nd weapon set is gone, that only Sebastian can use bows, that I can't change Varric's weapon, that Isabella can't use a sword.....
- And so on......
Many of this things disapeared on DA2, if I want to play a more action oriented RPG I have ME series (by the way I think that ME is better "bult" in terms of action an RPG elemnts) for DA I want a complex RPG, if I want to play a hack&slash I have God of War but for DA I want a complex RPG.....

In my opinion DA:O was a great game, only missed one thing and that was an open world, when I first played DA2 I found that open world was nowhere to found.... and many of the things that made DA:O such a rich and special game were gone.

Thanks for your time if you read this.

Modifié par Feanor_II, 28 mai 2011 - 11:35 .

[Droma]

and DAO had any other deep combat mechanics? in which form? because you had your top down camera? *sigh* pc gamers .... DA2 combat is in its mechanics nearly the same as DAOs one. the only different thing is that DA2 is way more easier on normal mode than DAO was. in DAO heal was so overpowered, that you didn't need any tactics if you just got 2-3 healers in your party. DA2 fixed that.

Modifié par Droma, 28 mai 2011 - 10:52 .

[PaulSX]

Droma wrote...

and DAO had any other deep combat mechanics? in which form? because you had your top down camera? *sigh* pc gamers .... DA2 combat is in its mechanics nearly the same as DAOs one. the only different thing is that DA2 is way more easier on normal mode than DAO was. in DAO heal was so overpowered, that you didn't need any tactics if you just got 2-3 healers in your party. DA2 fixed that.

I agree that DA2 has better combat mechanics but the problem of DA2 is it's not realistic. in Baldur's Gate 2 and DAO most foes have about same amount of hitpoints as PC, DA2 strengthen the mechnics but in a wrong direction

Modifié par suntzuxi, 28 mai 2011 - 11:06 .

[Morty Smith]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Finally, let me conclude by saying that while we are all aware of your concerns, I am very proud of what the team accomplished with Dragon Age II. I know many are advocating a "it wasn't broke, why did you try to fix it?" stance, and I absolutely understand why. From my perspective, as someone looking to the future and the DA franchise, I think that DA II moved us into a space that has more potential.

Beside the potential to create a game release cycle similiar to that of Activisions more popular franchises and the potential to increase sales I think there allways is the potential to suprise with a new installment when you lowered the expectations. DA:O had potential beyond the creative limitations of "the super-blight". It had a vast lore which sparked the imagination to travel, unravel and explore. It may be egoistic to think, but I hope Bioware can catch again what they already had.

Modifié par Kroitz, 28 mai 2011 - 03:07 .

[blaalindorm]

Fix1o0 wrote...
Enemies dropping randomly from the sky is realistic. Enemies randomly appearing out of thin-air is realistic.

I hate this.  Enemies just spawing all around you, wave after wave.  It's ridiculous.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Fix1o0 wrote...

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

Dormiglione wrote...

Maverick827 wrote...

BeefoTheBold wrote...

With all due respect, your perspective is not the one that matters. The customer's perspective is the important one.

With no due respect, not only are you incorrect, but you are not all customers and thus probably shouldn't speak as if you are. You know of maybe one thousand disgruntled fans (on the internet, no less) out of millions of consumers: to believe this number is significant is simply ignorant.

- Sales do not reflect that Dragon Age 2 goes the direction that a RPG fan wants
- Lot of professional critics review gave DA 2 a mediocre score
- Lot of players gave DA2 bad score and pointed out the four major issues with DA2

So, who is blind? How its possible that a "few disgruntled" people have such a loud voice and impact on critics, reviews and sales? 

Only four...

Recycling Maps/Instances/Beastiary
Waves of Mystical Ninjas
Limited Dialogue/Interaction with Companions
Lack of Race/Character Customization
Inability to Upgrade Companion Armor
Restricted Companion Roles
Poorly Executed Framed Narative
Loot/Drops – 90% of which are vendored
Trees/Abilities/Specializations – less variety
Tactical Combat - consisted of increased HP/resistances - which made Companions a greater threat to Hawke then the enemy
Dialogue Wheel - Failing to match response chosen
Limited Choices - No Consequences
Little to No Replay Value
Equipment Rating – Not Accurate/Bugged
Dual Wield - restricted to the Rogue class
Lazy Side Quests – turn in random item to random generated npc - here's your dead skeleton sir
Crafting - Marginalized

and this is just a short, condensed list

There is only one thing in this list that I disagree with and I know alot of people didn't like the wave after wave of enemies.  I do like it and thought it was realistic.

Enemies dropping randomly from the sky is realistic. Enemies randomly appearing out of thin-air is realistic.

I'd think they are jumping off of the rooftops down on their enemies.  This is why it seems believeable or at least to me it does.  Since they took the top-down view away from the pc version, I can't see them falling out of the sky.  Yet, our PS3 version you can see it so I understand what people are talking about and why this is bad.  From a rpg view they are jumping off of the rooftops.  Bioware just didn't pull it off all the way and I guess it depends on which version a player might be using. 

Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 28 mai 2011 - 11:30 .

[Persephone]

In Exile wrote...

Everwarden wrote...

Skyrim is looking better and better every day, no?

Sadly, no. Unless they have dramatically altered how the PC interacts with the world via dialogue, i.e. have actually created a dialogue system worth anything and use it as more than a filter for quests, Skyrim continues to be a game I have very little interest in. Obsidian doesn't have a hand in this, so we're far more likely to get FO3 instead of New Vegas.

Skyrim still hasn't managed to draw me in. Oblivion was oooooooooh shiny too and it had a 2 minute star cameo.....oh my Gooooooood. Er, no. And so far nothing I have seen of Skyrim has made me go "Must buy that!".

[Sister Helen]

erynnar wrote...

Oh, another plot hole...Fenris and my Hawke get it on. He freaks, and sticks her red undies on his arm, and the Amell crest on his belt (thank you for not making it a belt buckle like a tombstone for his...well, but what was that suppsed to be any ways? When did he have it made, where? It as romantic and....stalkery). Three years go by. My Hawke, if she has more than a one night boink fest with anyone else, can never reconcile with Fenris. But if she ****s or pines, no problem?

What self respecting woman (and no **** to me is not a bad thing, I use it as a word of empowerment, thnk Isabela) would sit around pining for three years. Even the guy who took my virginity and shattered my heart didn't warrant pining for a year, let alone three.

1.  Oh dear Maker, that red favor on Fenris's arm was Hawke's undies?  It explains so much...  Pure awesome.
2.  Everyone knows that *cough* what happens in the The Blooming Rose, stays in The Blooming Rose. 

So your Hawke was probably able to *cough* enjoy herself in those years and "pursue empowerment" (I need to get that embroidered on my blouse!) without messing up the Fenris romance.  If you think about it, an ex- always gets more upset if you start dating someone he/she knows and hangs out with rather than someone he/she doesn't know.

P.S.  Sorry that cad broke your heart. 

[Dormiglione]

Serpieri Nei wrote...

Dormiglione wrote...

Maverick827 wrote...

BeefoTheBold wrote...

With all due respect, your perspective is not the one that matters. The customer's perspective is the important one.

With no due respect, not only are you incorrect, but you are not all customers and thus probably shouldn't speak as if you are. You know of maybe one thousand disgruntled fans (on the internet, no less) out of millions of consumers: to believe this number is significant is simply ignorant.

- Sales do not reflect that Dragon Age 2 goes the direction that a RPG fan wants
- Lot of professional critics review gave DA 2 a mediocre score
- Lot of players gave DA2 bad score and pointed out the four major issues with DA2

So, who is blind? How its possible that a "few disgruntled" people have such a loud voice and impact on critics, reviews and sales? 

Only four...

- > Recycling Maps/Instances/Beastiary
Waves of Mystical Ninjas
- >Limited Dialogue/Interaction with Companions
Lack of Race/Character Customization
Inability to Upgrade Companion Armor
Restricted Companion Roles
Poorly Executed Framed Narative
Loot/Drops – 90% of which are vendored
Trees/Abilities/Specializations – less variety
Tactical Combat - consisted of increased HP/resistances - which made Companions a greater threat to Hawke then the enemy
Dialogue Wheel - Failing to match response chosen
- > Limited Choices - No Consequences
Little to No Replay Value
Equipment Rating – Not Accurate/Bugged
Dual Wield - restricted to the Rogue class
- > Lazy Side Quests – turn in random item to random generated npc - here's your dead skeleton sir
Crafting - Marginalized

and this is just a short, condensed list

I agree with every point in your list, but i wouldnt consider all of them major issues. I highlighted the points on your list which are for me the most important points and the reason why i am so disappointed with DA 2.

[Sister Helen]

Everwarden wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...


Arcanum did. Separated appearance from personality. Alot of great ideas in that game, even if the execution could have been better.

We'll never, ever see a game with the depth of Arcanum again. 

Loved, loved, loved Arcanum, even though it was super-buggy and had dated graphics. Loved the dialogue responses when you had low intelligence/high charisma -- the NPCs started talking more slowly and simply, and your answers were : "Arghhh?" and my favorite: "Ergghhhh.....Huh"

[Esbatty]

Persephone wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Everwarden wrote...

Skyrim is looking better and better every day, no?

Sadly, no. Unless they have dramatically altered how the PC interacts with the world via dialogue, i.e. have actually created a dialogue system worth anything and use it as more than a filter for quests, Skyrim continues to be a game I have very little interest in. Obsidian doesn't have a hand in this, so we're far more likely to get FO3 instead of New Vegas.

Skyrim still hasn't managed to draw me in. Oblivion was oooooooooh shiny too and it had a 2 minute star cameo.....oh my Gooooooood. Er, no. And so far nothing I have seen of Skyrim has made me go "Must buy that!".

But it promises infinite amounts of dragons! UNENDING AMOUNTS OF DRAGONS!

[Sister Helen]

Dormiglione wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

People are excited about griffons because they are supposed to be extinct.

Nah mostly we're pretending to be excited about griffons to annoy the hell out of Wynne.

Agree, would like to see Wynne's face when a griffon land in front of her.

Gotta say, l can still hear Wynne's voice, "Maker's Breath, it's like talking to a child!" from the Griffons conversation.  But I was just messing with her, after the crack about *cough* making too much noise with Zevran in camp.

[Persephone]

Esbatty wrote...

Persephone wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Everwarden wrote...

Skyrim is looking better and better every day, no?

Sadly, no. Unless they have dramatically altered how the PC interacts with the world via dialogue, i.e. have actually created a dialogue system worth anything and use it as more than a filter for quests, Skyrim continues to be a game I have very little interest in. Obsidian doesn't have a hand in this, so we're far more likely to get FO3 instead of New Vegas.

Skyrim still hasn't managed to draw me in. Oblivion was oooooooooh shiny too and it had a 2 minute star cameo.....oh my Gooooooood. Er, no. And so far nothing I have seen of Skyrim has made me go "Must buy that!".

But it promises infinite amounts of dragons! UNENDING AMOUNTS OF DRAGONS!

The only game where many dragon were done well was Might & Magic VI. And maybe VII. Modern RPG dragons are wimps compared to them.

Modifié par Persephone, 28 mai 2011 - 11:49 .

[Esbatty]

I like how DA2 significantly upped the number of Dragons in the Dragon Age. DAO made me feel like Ian Malcolm in Jurrasic Park.

"Are there going to be any Dinosaurs on this Dinosaur Tour?"

...

But man more dragons is always better! I fully expect to find an RPG that will give me the Voltron of Dragons... a Dragon made out of many smaller Dragons. I will call it "Dragonkind", and it will be anything but "kind".

[Fieryeel]

And after so long...I can finally say, "There is hope for DA3 after all!"

Good to see Mike addressing complains and taking an active role once more. May Dragon Age 3 be as polished as ME2.

[lobi]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

I hope we find feral, tainted griffons that we have to put down.

No it will be a lone newly hatched griffon that will be too small to ride/fly but will be your 'Dog' for DA3.

I will name mine "Merv."

And Kathy shall be mine. (if only)

[Ostagar2011]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...
I did not feel prepared to deal with some of the more personal attacks in a professional manner.

Did you wonder why these was so extreme? Can you honestly say you understand reason for the strength of feeling for so many? Or are you still deluding yourself that it was all a big 4 chan raid / trolls from rpgcodex.net?

Mike Laidlaw wrote...
Now, while I haven't been posting, we have been listening.

When sales are in the doldrums and your own forums are out of control. Otherwise, my bet is you'd have told Woo to go 'end some lines', issue a few game bans and dish out some personal attacks of your own ("afraid of change", "old-timers", "elitists" - perhaps told a few to "suck it up princess", while you were at it?).

Mike Laidlaw wrote...
Following the launch of DA II, I did some interviews and some of you interpreted my statements to mean I was blind to the concerns that have been voiced repeatedly on these forums. That was never my intent, nor the message I wanted to convey.

Perhaps the phrase "I think the big key is to not adjust 180 degrees again, because we've done this. I think, as a
team, we're quite happy with what we've done with Dragon Age II" - might have contributed to the "misunderstanding". There was so much wrong with DA2, it needed a radical adjustment. Yet you were out talking little tweaks, seeing nothing wrong with the direction.

Mike Laidlaw wrote...
From my perspective, as someone looking to the future and the DA franchise, I think that DA II moved us into a space that has more potential.

Did it? Or did DA2 just move an epic, complex, mature, classic RPG into the casual action adventure genre? And you even managed to bungle the implementation of that... Besides, were 4 million copies of DA:O too little "potential"? At what point in the sales charts will you stop diluting into the lowest common denominator? 6 million? 25 million?

Mike Laidlaw wrote...
A larger potential audience? Sure, who wouldn’t want more players diving into the experience of playing an RPG?

News at 11 - when you cut out a ton of RPG conventions to attract more casual gamers, you aren't doing RPG's any favors. If you want to do something for RPG fans, remove that acronym from DA3 (if as you say, you believe DA2 direction is the "future") - your silly game will shame it.

TL;DR - this mess required bold leadership, courage and vision to fix. Nothing I 've read so far shows that you have an ounce of any. Which is a pity, because you were once a great developer - it's a shame to see you slide into DA2 mediocrity. Hope your new audience buys a lot of your future products to have made all this grief worth it.

Modifié par Ostagar2011, 28 mai 2011 - 12:04 .

[YohkoOhno]

I think Mike's done a good job with this post.

The big problem is that there are people who are offended he wanted to expand the audience, and that should be ignored. People are making loads of speculation into his being honest. (Heck, The Witcher guys ALSO aimed for consoles, and it's definately not a classic party based RPG people seem to think is the only form of RPG around).

Bioware is NOT an RPG company, they are a game company. It's just known for doing good games that deal with that. There is no reason why they should be stuck with a simple expectation. No company wants to get pigeonholed into a single genre.

The key thing is--Bioware needs to make a good game, period. It's not the changes themselves (for the most part) that is a problem, it's more or less the execution of those changes. I think Bioware has learned from DA2, but I don't think that means that they are going back to a silent protagonist, for instance. Overall, they need to analyze what happened, specifics why this game was less well received, figure out what the competition does right, and make those changes.

I look forward to the DLC, and I hope it's worth the cost involved.

My hope for Dragon Age 3 is that they take a little more time and actually have the (once promised) 2 year DLC cycle, along with more than one major expansion, so they can continue the storyline while spending time enhancing the engine so it can compete with Skyrim and The Witcher 2.

Modifié par YohkoOhno, 28 mai 2011 - 12:15 .

[jurisper]

DA2 is probably the best game I've played. It's just great to see something which isn't the usual stale sub-Tolkienesque crap or lame straight-to-DVD sci-fi knock-off or whatever. 

The characters were deep for this kind of medium, and they actually showed signs of really good writing - not just pieced together from instantly-recognisable juvenile TV/movie/cartoon elements, but crafted as a good novelist would craft. They were fresh. Particularly Merril and Aveline; a little less so for the others. The facial animations were very, very good in bringing out the characters, in most cases. The female Hawke is IMO a huge success in this regard (the male unfortunately not so great, IMO - really didn't engage me).

It would be excellent if the future trajectory continued towards really engaging, grown-up stories with a heavy focus on character and well-crafted plots, and away from kill'n stuff, flatulent boss battles and "epicness" in general.

The main nits I have with DA2:

- This is pulp, not Camus. I always fail to understand why a designer might think that "futility" is a good feature of a game plot. If my playing the character cannot result in an improvement to the game world, why play?  I think particularly of the conversation with Varick, where he asks you what yr ambitions are. For each of the possible responses, you end up failing, and there is no coherent redemptive or transcendent thinggie which would allow you to think you succeeded in some larger sense. Just inexplicable to me.

- Courage of ones convictions. DA2 sets itself up to be about a refugee trying to establish his/her family in a new home, but then degenerates into some lame "epic" comic book thing with lots of kill'n stuff. Some of the grown up vision remains but it does get diluted and undermined. How excellent it would have been to see that original set up progressed - do you work towards setting up the family as some aristocratic dynasty, do you become a reformer etc etc, punctuated with ethical decision points and infused with long term consequences.

Anywy - overall, kudos!

[Fredvdp]

Persephone wrote...

Skyrim still hasn't managed to draw me in. Oblivion was oooooooooh shiny too and it had a 2 minute star cameo.....oh my Gooooooood. Er, no. And so far nothing I have seen of Skyrim has made me go "Must buy that!".

More than two minutes if you consider Sean Bean and Terrence Stamp stars.

[Thomas9321]

What an incredible post. I think acknowledging the criticism of DAII will go a long way. Not on these boards of course, they're populated by lunatics.

[DownyTif]

Mr. Laidlaw, I read a lot of posts during development of DA2 from people on this forum that were warning Bioware of the choices made in the design and were disagreeing. There was a LOT of people trying to communicate their fear during development. They have been ignored and DA2 came out and alienated a lot of people.

I'm not sure I can believe your statement when you say you take the feedback from the community seriously now. I hope it's true and I want to believe it. I made a huge thread (personal review) and Mr. Epler confirmed me that my post was in your feedback pile, I hope it will be considered.

I really hope you speak the thruth now when you say you listen to the community, because if yes (in development), DA2 would have been awesome.

[TypoWolf]

Thank you for listening. Sometimes it's just enough to feel that I'm heard. I'll be skeptical of trotting out to buy DA3 as well, but there's no excuse for personal attacks. I wasn't as fond of 2 as Origins but it's not anyone's fault specifically. I don't recall someone on the Bioware team showing up on my door and asking me: "What can we put in DA2 which is going to ruin your day?" I'll certainly continue to play and love Origins, occasionally pop in DA2, and will keep an eye open for future work on 3.

[Azzlee]

Mike, first and foremost, well done for the post.

With the nice bit out of the way, down to the nitty girtty.

If you had made this post about a month it would probably be worse than this, but I wanted to express my deep disapointment and regret that you took arguably the best and most epic game I have ever played, and turned it into the mess that was Dragon Age 2. Now I am not foolish enough to say that you must tailor a game to my standards as that would be idiotic, but I am not the only one who thinks that DA2 failed alot of your fanbase.

There can be no excuse for the reused areas (you had the backlash for that when it was done in ME and ME2 vastly improved upon that) or the very clear shortcuts taken with the game. I am one of those who believe "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" and this is a philosophy shared by many a developer (Infinity Ward, Bungie, Rockstar to name a few) and look how well CoD, Halo and GTA do when it comes to sales.

You released DA2 off of the back of a very well praised game in DA2, so why you added the dialogue wheel from ME2, and a voiced protagonist, removed customisation from companions reused areas over and over and implemented a quite frankly obvious time sink in the form of waves of enemies is totally beyond me.

A lot of my hate that is and will continue to be directed to Bioware over DA2 is becuase I hold Bioware to a very high standard and whilst I can understand that you want to increase your fanbase and sales as a result, taking the high ground and pretty much squatting on those who fully supported DA:O and purchased DA2 as a result is quite frankly insulting. If DA2 was put out by a different developer, it whould have been mediocre at best, but when something like DA2 comes from Bioware, at best it is simply shocking.

You had an excellent team working on this game Mike, most of all David Gaider who wrote one of the greatest NPC's of all time in Morrigan. It just boggles my mind how the story was a mish mash of awful when you had the same writing team.

If I were you, I would walk up to that ice cream seller John Ricitello and tell him that the fanbase you want isn't call of duty, but the World Of Warcraft crowd.

[nightscrawl]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Also, there seem to be rather a lot of….are those griffins?
I think they might be!

You're as bad as Flemeth with your teasing.