1373 réponses à ce sujet

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I nominate Zjarcal as well to this position. And I want to hug all three of you (and others).

What am I being nominated for? Though judging from the hug idea, this must be something good. 

And it's good to see some love being spread around here for a change. 

[Brockololly]

Harmless Crunch wrote...
Only way this DLC can be better is if it continues Morrigan's story!

**** NO.

For all that is holy and sacred in the world, lets have Morrigan, the Warden and any possible OGB story continue to stay away from any and everything DA2 related. That was half of the problem with Witch Hunt, that if you're going to remotely do anything major with Morrigan in the future, do it in a full game and/or expansion pack where you can address it sufficiently and it doesn't come across as a mediocre cash grab for anyone interested in the potential of that storyline.

And I really, really, really do not want to see how monstrous a Hot Rod Samurai'd Morrigan would no doubt look in DA2's face morph system

devSin wrote...

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Finally, let me conclude by saying that while we are all aware of your concerns, I am very proud of what the team accomplished with Dragon Age II.  I know many are advocating a "it wasn't broke, why did you try to fix  it?" stance, and I absolutely understand why. From my perspective, as  someone looking to the future and the DA franchise, I think that DA II  moved us into a space that has more potential.

Is it possible for you to qualify this at all? This is the same generalization that you seem to keep falling back on, but it doesn't actually mean anything outside your offices. What did you do that moved you to this "space  that has more potential"?

Or rather, what did Origins do that so  limited its potential that, even after acknowledging the many missteps  of the sequel, you feel the need to call to attention that you made the  right choice, the best choice, the only choice?

Well, I can understand from the POV of having the end of DA2 provide for a different world state to go with different stories. That definitely has potential- yet, the aftermath of Origins had just as much potential too, since we had only seen a sliver of Thedas.

The question I have is whether Mike thinks gameplay and/or presentation wise, DA2 provides more "potential" going forward? I think thats more the contentious issue at hand, as many didn't see DA2 as much of  step forward there but rather simply doing stuff other games and franchises had done before, and frankly, had done better than DA2. Thats not to say some of the concepts of DA2 are without merit, but rather the execution was often shoddy.

So whatever unique "classical" or "traditional" identity DAO had established was summarily chucked out the window in favor of mechanics and presentation that every other game with "RPG elements" alread had- maybe not purposefully, but thats what the end result in DA2 felt like more or less.

And as a gamer, I find that lack of variety in bigger AAA RPGs profoundly disappointing and discouraging. Thats one reason why I found DAO a breath of fresh air- despite being called a more "tradiational" RPG, no big developer had done something like that with AAA production values. And part of my issue with DA2 was that it changed too much of what made DAO stand out and in the process became yet another generic action RPG that seemed to deperately not want to be an RPG.

Modifié par Brockololly, 27 mai 2011 - 12:56 .

[Firky]

Good post, Mike.

I'm looking forward to see what you guys do next, whatever it is. And, don't forget those of us who thought DAII was a great game just as it is. (And I'm saying that as an old school RPG and BioWare fan, too.)

[AngryFrozenWater]

Brockololly wrote...

devSin wrote...

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Finally, let me conclude by saying that while we are all aware of your concerns, I am very proud of what the team accomplished with Dragon Age II.  I know many are advocating a "it wasn't broke, why did you try to fix  it?" stance, and I absolutely understand why. From my perspective, as  someone looking to the future and the DA franchise, I think that DA II  moved us into a space that has more potential.

Is it possible for you to qualify this at all? This is the same generalization that you seem to keep falling back on, but it doesn't actually mean anything outside your offices. What did you do that moved you to this "space  that has more potential"?

Or rather, what did Origins do that so  limited its potential that, even after acknowledging the many missteps  of the sequel, you feel the need to call to attention that you made the  right choice, the best choice, the only choice?

Well, I can understand from the POV of having the end of DA2 provide for a different world state to go with different stories. That definitely has potential- yet, the aftermath of Origins had just as much potential too, since we had only seen a sliver of Thedas.

The question I have is whether Mike thinks gameplay and/or presentation wise, DA2 provides more "potential" going forward? I think thats more the contentious issue at hand, as many didn't see DA2 as much of  step forward there but rather simply doing stuff other games and franchises had done before, and frankly, had done better than DA2. Thats not to say some of the concepts of DA2 are without merit, but rather the execution was often shoddy.

So whatever unique "classical" or "traditional" identity DAO had established was summarily chucked out the window in favor of mechanics and presentation that every other game with "RPG elements" alread had- maybe not purposefully, but thats what the end result in DA2 felt like more or less.

And as a gamer, I find that lack of variety in bigger AAA RPGs profoundly disappointing and discouraging. Thats one reason why I found DAO a breath of fresh air- despite being called a more "tradiational" RPG, no big developer had done something like that with AAA production values. And part of my issue with DA2 was that it changed too much of what made DAO stand out and in the process became yet another generic action RPG that seemed to deperately not want to be an RPG.

That's a great post, Brockololly. I couldn't agree more.

(Checked the nicks several times before posting ).

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zjarcal wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I nominate Zjarcal as well to this position. And I want to hug all three of you (and others).

What am I being nominated for? Though judging from the hug idea, this must be something good. 

And it's good to see some love being spread around here for a change. 

For person who has different opinions, but conveys them eloquently and politely, so as to make any discussion with them enjoyable.

Strange sad times that we have to nominate people for this, but there you go

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 27 mai 2011 - 01:01 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Brockololly wrote...

Harmless Crunch wrote...
Only way this DLC can be better is if it continues Morrigan's story!

**** NO.

For all that is holy and sacred in the world, lets have Morrigan, the Warden and any possible OGB story continue to stay away from any and everything DA2 related. That was half of the problem with Witch Hunt, that if you're going to remotely do anything major with Morrigan in the future, do it in a full game and/or expansion pack where you can address it sufficiently and it doesn't come across as a mediocre cash grab for anyone interested in the potential of that storyline.

And I really, really, really do not want to see how monstrous a Hot Rod Samurai'd Morrigan would no doubt look in DA2's face morph system

Thank you.

I don't want Morrigan and the OGB to have anything even remotely linking them to Hawke.

[DaBigDragon]

You are welcome good sir.

I am one of the folks who enjoyed DA2, although I do agree the level re-uses got repetitive.

However, I agree that you and your team have taken Dragon Age in the CORRECT DIRECTION. It is time to move on from the RPG's of the 1990's where you read lines and lines of text for your player character and the combat feels clunky and slow.

It's 2011, time to move on.

[_Aine_]

I heard there was happiness and love occurring in this thread, and just *had* to stop by to see if the rumours were indeed true.

Carry on. =)

[Sidney]

I think everyone agrees that there were problems with the execution of the DA2 vision and in many of the areas you outlined. what I don't want to lose to the sense of the concept that was right. I like the story not being a rehash of most every other RPG, like the risks taken with art style, the retooling of the races, the changes in combat and skills. The people who disagree with the conceptual changes won't ever be happy but you can do a lot by making the execution a lot better.

[Merci357]

Brockololly wrote...

And as a gamer, I find that lack of variety in bigger AAA RPGs profoundly disappointing and discouraging. Thats one reason why I found DAO a breath of fresh air- despite being called a more "tradiational" RPG, no big developer had done something like that with AAA production values. And part of my issue with DA2 was that it changed too much of what made DAO stand out and in the process became yet another generic action RPG that seemed to deperately not want to be an RPG.

What's this lack of variety you are talking about?

This year we already got DA2 and TW2, and will get soon DE:HR, and later this year TES:V. And early next year there is ME3. From my point of view those games are _very_ different in terms of gameplay (and setting). And, of all those DA2 might be the one that still has some "traditional" roots, if party based combat qualifies as such. Maybe flawed, maybe watered down - but everything else is quite far away from anything that you could consider a "traditional" RPG.

Isn't it rather you have vastly different expectations from a DA game, compared the offerings of other developers? Or how can you enjoy a voiced Geralt while voicing your wish to go back to a silent PC in a future DA title, just as an example?

[DragonRageGT]

MegaTofu wrote...

 DAO had some weakpoints, but not all which was altered was changed for the better. I loved DAO and played it through multiple times. DA2 I didn't even finish. I felt disconnected, sidelined and distanced from a game I was hoping to enjoy.

Like someone wisely said in another thread, DAO had a great MOOD and DA2 lost it. I still could finish it and replay it 5 times but that's it. While Origins gave me over 20 runs and there will be more in the future, when I get sick of TW2, which may take a long long time.

Persephone wrote...

nedpepper wrote...

RageGT wrote...

I can't help but thinking that this is motivated by that new-sequel-which_er-name-shall-not-be-mentioned here!

  Because, obviously the world revolves around The Witcher.....

Wait, are you saying it DOES NOT?

But.....that's just so cruel!

The timing was... too perfect?

Modifié par RageGT, 27 mai 2011 - 01:10 .

[Cutlass Jack]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Thank you.

I don't want Morrigan and the OGB to have anything even remotely linking them to Hawke.

Me either. Although I suspect its for the opposite reasons, the end result is the same.

[KnightofPhoenix]

shantisands wrote...

I heard there was happiness and love occurring in this thread, and just *had* to stop by to see if the rumours were indeed true.

Carry on. =)

No admit it, you just came here for a hug too.
*hugs*

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I nominate Zjarcal as well to this position. And I want to hug all three of you (and others).

What am I being nominated for? Though judging from the hug idea, this must be something good. 

And it's good to see some love being spread around here for a change. 

For person who has different opinions, but conveys them eloquently and politely, so as to make any discussion with them enjoyable.

Strange sad times that we have to nominate people for this, but there you go

YAY!

Now I need to go press some awesome buttons because I'm in a good mood. 

Oh, and I saw someone attempt to do Morrigan's face in DA2... click at your own discretion.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zjarcal wrote...
Oh, and I saw someone attempt to do Morrigan's face in DA2... click at your own discretion.

.....Brock, I do not recommend that you see that.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 27 mai 2011 - 01:15 .

[_Aine_]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

shantisands wrote...

I heard there was happiness and love occurring in this thread, and just *had* to stop by to see if the rumours were indeed true.

Carry on. =)

No admit it, you just came here for a hug too.
*hugs*

lol  Well... ok.  I don't pass up free hugs on Thursdays!  <3  

Yeah, Morrigan should probably stay out of DA2, if they are smart. Even if they do her decently, people have SUCH an opinion of her, one way or the other, that it would be....messy....at best.  

[Latorn]

Honestly, I loved Dragon Age 2. It was a different game from Dragon Age: Orgins, and Origins will always have a special place in my heart; but you guys took a game that I didn't think could ever have a sequel and expanded on a fantastic universe.

I loved Dragon Age 2 all the way through, and I just wanted to thank you for making such a great game

[Cohesion]

Great post, Mike; it speaks volumes for those so-called 'fans' - who can't convey their grievances without resorting to childish and uncivilized personal attacks - that you can post a polite and amicable response in spite of all the negativity. Personally, I love DAII as much as DA:O, and can't wait to see where the series goes next, either in DAII dlc or in DAIII.

Modifié par Cohesion, 27 mai 2011 - 01:28 .

[Brockololly]

Merci357 wrote...
What's this lack of variety you are talking about?

This year we already got DA2 and TW2, and will get soon DE:HR, and later this year TES:V. And early next year there is ME3. From my point of view those games are _very_ different in terms of gameplay (and setting). And, of all those DA2 might be the one that still has some "traditional" roots, if party based combat qualifies as such. Maybe flawed, maybe watered down - but everything else is quite far away from anything that you could consider a "traditional" RPG.

Isn't it rather you have vastly different expectations from a DA game, compared the offerings of other developers? Or how can you enjoy a voiced Geralt while voicing your wish to go back to a silent PC in a future DA title, just as an example?

Sure its differing expectations to an extent. I'm looking forward to each of the games you mentioned (maybe not as much ME3), but its for different reasons. I expect a Deus Ex game to have a different presentation and gameplay than an Elder Scrolls game which should be different than The Witcher. I thought Origins did a good  job of differentiating it's self from not only other AAA games on the market but also BioWare's other games, like Mass Effect.

So part of my issue with DA2 was that it tossed out many of the things I found unique and different from Origins, or otherwise simplified them to the extent they weren't really relevent. Instead of retaining and building on unique aspects of Origins like the tactical camera or Origin stories or just the freedom and rich RPG elements, DA2 did what so many devs are doing now and scaled back the RPG and took away freedom from the player.

All I'm saying is that what I enjoyed about DAO, some of the more "traditional" aspects of its gameplay and presentation were things I'd like to see evolved gradually rather than ditched for something completely different, as I found was the case in much of what was changed in DA2. To me, too much of DA2 felt like it was stuff borrowed from other games, like the ME style presentation.

DA2 just felt like a game that didn't know what it wanted to be- it was a game without a strong and confident identity in terms of execution as  a final product. Origins felt like it knew what it wanted to be and executed pretty well, although surely not without its faults. Problem there was that I don't think DA2 really fixed many of DAO's problems but rather just did different thing entirely. And after DA2, I have no idea what to expect from DA as a franchise- will they abandon party control? Will they go totally twitch based combat? Will they scale back even more tactical combat and role playing options?

Thats where I'm uneasy, as I thought after Origins the heart of the franchise- the identity of DA and the essential nature of "What makes a Dragon Age game a Dragon Age game?" was understood by the devs. But (IMO) DA2, by being marketed as a sequel, really missed what made Origins enjoyable to me. My expectations may have been different if they didn't plop a 2 on the end, but they didn't and I expected an evolution of what I enjoyed from DAO, but that is not what I got, and to me, that was supremely disappointing.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...
Oh, and I saw someone attempt to do Morrigan's face in DA2... click at your own discretion.

.....Brock, I do not recommend that you see that.

*Gouges out own eyeballs*

I tried to make a Morrigan Hawke with crummy results when it first came out:

Modifié par Brockololly, 27 mai 2011 - 01:45 .

[seraphymon]

Ariella wrote...

seraphymon wrote...

While i did like a post and its a nice breath of fresh air. I have to agree word for word with AngryFrozenWater All it is, is just words. All i can go by is the past where we were told all of this and that, but in game we found it was half truths, outright lies, or not as significant as you made it seem. I know theres the marketing to sell the game but still. Forgive me if im not jumping for joy like the rest of the people here, but i think my reservations are also well justified.

There's an old yiddish saying to the effect a dagger wound heals easier than a wound from words. Words are extremely powerful.

As for the accusations of half truths and out right lies... I saw neither when I played DA2. With the exception of the recycled enviroments, most of what I saw in the complaints was subjective in that this game wasn't DAO2 or that they didn't like the framed narrative etc.

It has nothing to do with what we were expecting. Not me for me or those who  followed all the info of what this game was about. But as many have posted where we were told that it was a game over 10 years and shapes around the decisions we make. For me only 1 decision really did that and that was on ur sibling. Anything else was very minor, to affecting nothing in the end. Also it was only a 7 year story. As well as a darker richer story. Well the darker part i feel is a lie in regards to origins, primarily due to the artistic path it took.

[BiowarEA]

Let's see what we have here: yet another post by Laidlaw full of vague generalizations and empty rhetoric coinciding with the DA3 announcement, made to appease the sheeple and lull them yet again into a false sense of hope. GASP! It's almost as if this post were tailor made to induce cynicism amongst the more level headed (non-Biodrone) folk here.

[Dragoonlordz]

Issues like level re-use, the implementation of wave combat, concerns about the narrative and significance of choice and so on have all been not only noted, but examined, inspected and even aided me (and many, many others on the team) in formulating future plans.

You listed the big four but the two I highlighted are imho the biggest problem of the game and you said you will strongly look into those and examine thats good especially with other developers copying your choice / consequence and cause / effect system for example TW2 did this far better with regards to dramatic / cumulative affect on the story and world. You know yourself there was very limited choices in DA2 due to the framed narrative and personalisation and centralisation of the story around Hawke, with helplessness due to events out of control. While Bioware is lowering the amount of choices and how it affects their titles plots and limiting it to make your life slightly easier in making a follow up title other companies such as CDPR are expanding the choices and their effect on the plots. Your losing the battle on the one thing you pretty much pioneered over the last few years and the one thing that made your games special and unique, a cut above the rest.

Your stories alone are not what makes your games great, it's the method of how that story is told. You cut back and removed that to a degree in DA2, the story itself had promise but the result was a let down due to how that story was told. Replacing the choices that affect the world your hero lives in with choices that merely affect who he or she is in that world. You need the former and latter to go hand in hand with that good story to make a truly great game. Others settle for less but I think you need to surpass their expectations and mine and set your standards far higher for yourself.

The map reuse was a no brainer that most people would feel cheated when you have to remember replayability is one of the core features of Bioware's titles and your not seeing the same cave 10-20 times you end up seeing it 50-100 times over replays.

I think Hawkes (Varrics and Anders) story is based around a dark and subsequencially depressing or limiting negative plot, this has a negative affect on the player base likened to feeling powerless or bound by events so loses all that great epic feeling of accomplishment and glee that a lot of games Bioware have made contain and gamers like. This makes them coming back to a series or title again and again to get that feeling. If your story is based on negativity it will have an impact and not a good one on the wider audience with exception of the few who get some enjoyment out of seeing something done a different way for once.

There comes into mind most importantly not whether a title has more players in an RPG genre but what defines an RPG to you as a person with the ability to decide the direction of a title. Is DA2 the same RPG style as DAO, will DA3 be another style of RPG to what attracted the initial fans into DA was the first style of RPG in DAO. While the ideal is always to bring in new players into the RPG genre and keep the original fans but at some point where does that genre style split from what attracted the first set of fans to what might attract the new ones there will be loss if change goes too far.

While it may be possible and perfectly acceptable to proud of what might be accomplished in a short timeframe, like others and myself have said and one of the biggest issues was limitation of time to begin with. EA says they want annual releases of their biggest selling titles this goes against the grain of what the fans here want, who want you to take as long as needed to release more than just a product your happy to put out due to time limitations; but happy with a product with regardless of any amount of time spent and more importantly *needed*. The one thing almost every single person on these forums wishes to be heard above all else is that the game needed more time without a shadow of doubt. As developers you should have seen and known this yourself and if did yet still released early then how can someone respect that choice from a company putting other factors above their fanbase and more importantly the final quality.

Finally, you said the right things in this thread at start but the price of what decisions was made as far as direction, timeframe and quality in DA2 will have a knock on effect on preorders and initial sales of DA3 even if DA3 is the greatest thing since sliced bread. That is the cost of releasing in some parts a sub par title and one that many feel was pushed out the door far, far too soon. Speaking for myself I lost faith that everything Bioware make will be pure gold and like many others we will be a lot more careful in the future with your products.

From the EA marketing being misleading by a long way (no rational person) can not see that what is described after playing was not what we got from every choice affecting world around or the game spanning a decade when spans only seven and three of those playable. It was a cheap tactic and was not un-noticed. An ending that had more in common with "insert coin" than any feeling of completion, value for money when will require a lot more money to get that feeling due to how nothing was resolved other than two bosses killed. Many, many other such issues like that all have knock on effect on confidence which is what has happened for a lot of us fans.

One thing I will say is the streamlining has to stop and stop now, if you streamline anymore with the franchise, your going to streamline it out of existance. I won't rule out DA3 right now but I for one will be watching very closely from now on the direction you head and product you release, decide to buy after and only after seeing the end result and not out of blind faith anymore. You lost that privilege after DA2.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 27 mai 2011 - 02:02 .

[sonsonthebia07]

Throw me in the "DA2 was a good bordering on great game, but it could have been better, and didn't quite meet certain expectations" category. It also took out some things that worked fine in Origins.

Here's to a non-nugless DA3.

And did I see that right? Griffons? Does this DLC have griffons in it? (I think that is the third time I've written that on these boards in the past few weeks)

I also need to get a censor filter for the word "streamline".

Modifié par sonsonthebia07, 27 mai 2011 - 01:46 .