341 réponses à ce sujet

[Monica83]

adneate wrote...

Tantum Dic Verbo wrote...
Seems your complaints cover a lot of different variables.

All connected by a central problem, one audience wants ever more complexity while the other wants things to be more accessible. They are going to be at odds with each other over every single thing in the game. Any attempt to satisfy one group is only going to alienate and anger the other.

Yes but they can't mix sugar with salt...In fact DA2 was a total fail

[axl99]

Dragon Age is supposed to be a new IP, and that should be reflected all the way down to gameplay. Personally it just won't do for the property to be constrained solely by what its RPG predecessors have achieved. For years Bioware had attempted to find new ways for players to enjoy an RPG in a different light, and they've made plenty of gambles before.

This is more or less the first time they've made a bad bet.

Fact. Sugar can be mixed with salt. It's used frequently in Chinese cuisine on its principle of balancing flavours. It's also useful in pickling vegetables.

Carry on.

Modifié par axl99, 27 mai 2011 - 05:23 .

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

mrcrusty wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

DAO was a throwback and only had the appeal of a throwback. Nostalgia. Now that the nostalgia is over, it's time to move on to a new formula. That's what DA2 is. He shouldn't apologize for making positive changes. There will be more down the road as the formula is refined, moving RPGs away from the boring old games that no one enjoyed.

No one enjoyed?

Right. That's why it's Bioware's best selling game. Because no one enjoyed it.

Makes perfect sense.

It was only popular because it was a throwback.  As for it being BioWare's best selling game, you make my point for me.  They could draw in real crowds of gamers with just a couple changes.  ME2 and DA2 are the first steps in that... they're great games.

Yet Origins outsold both of those titles. Go fig.

[MDT1]

@ RinpocheSchnozberry

So sales numbers are just imagination?
I have no problem with you stating your opinion, but how you can assume you are in the majority after looking at the sales number in beyond my understanding.

Modifié par MDT1, 27 mai 2011 - 05:23 .

[axl99]

Some of you guys remember what happened with all those EA sports games? They began to sell less and less of it every year. That's exactly what's going to happen to the RPG genre if devs keep doing the same damn thing.

[LPPrince]

axl99 wrote...

Some of you guys remember what happened with all those EA sports games? They began to sell less and less of it every year. That's exactly what's going to happen to the RPG genre if devs keep doing the same damn thing.

When I was younger(as in single digit numbers and up to about 12) I used to get a ton of sports games to the point where that was my main genre of gaming.

Stopped many years ago when I started to realize it was the same thing over and over and over again.

[Monica83]

I don't think consider how much sells DA2 and how much continue to sell DAO .. Anyways bioware for me must learn from cd-project.. this is an rpg in the right direction

[aries1001]

-eh-

what post by Mike Laidlaw?

The only referral (quote) is the one from David Gaider from a month ago....in which he goes through the stages of grief...

[DanaScu]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

mrcrusty wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

DAO was a throwback and only had the appeal of a throwback. Nostalgia. Now that the nostalgia is over, it's time to move on to a new formula. That's what DA2 is. He shouldn't apologize for making positive changes. There will be more down the road as the formula is refined, moving RPGs away from the boring old games that no one enjoyed.

No one enjoyed?

Right. That's why it's Bioware's best selling game. Because no one enjoyed it.

Makes perfect sense.

It was only popular because it was a throwback.  As for it being BioWare's best selling game, you make my point for me.  They could draw in real crowds of gamers with just a couple changes.  ME2 and DA2 are the first steps in that... they're great games.

DA2 is such a great game that the sales figures are out of sight hot-rod-samurai fantastic, right? I mean, it was just so AWESOME to fight like a SPARTAN and think like a GENERAL that the sales for DA2 beat out the current Guinness Book of records holder for most games sold in the first week, right?  oh, wait. No, sorry. That was Bethesda and Fallout 3, iirc. But DA2 is such a step in the right direction that its outselling DA:O by thousands of copies. Proof right there...oh wait. No, it doesn't seem to be.

Maybe, just maybe, they aren't going in the right direction to draw in "real crowds of gamers". Some of the gamers they did draw in are already looking for the next new shiny because they are bored. The "real crowds of gamers" don't seem to be a stable fan-base. How many are going to hang around for DA3, if there is one? How many are going to lose interest and move on to the next new thing? 

[ItsTheTruth]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...


That's fair, but I don't have to prove my opinion.  I'm voicing mine.  You were citing supposed facts.  But your facts have no real backup, so they aren't facts.

Here is a fact: you should check the user reviews on any website: they all agree that DA2 is a flaming piece of crap.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

axl99 wrote...

Some of you guys remember what happened with all those EA sports games? They began to sell less and less of it every year. That's exactly what's going to happen to the RPG genre if devs keep doing the same damn thing.

I agree, but I honestly don't see how what's happening is somehow an evolution of the genre or something new.

It's essentially how to turn Baldur's Gate into Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance, or Fallout into Fallout: Brotherhood of Steel, or Deus Ex into Deus Ex: Invisible War, except with some really nice cinematics along the way.

If that's the endgame...

[aries1001]

For those who are still confused here's the thread that Mike Laidlae started in the registered owners general forum:

http://social.biowar...5/index/7475089

Modifié par aries1001, 27 mai 2011 - 05:33 .

[Captain Sassy Pants]

Tantum Dic Verbo wrote...

MonkeyLungs wrote...

I would say don't do a REBOOT to a widely loved series in game 2 during the same console generation (ie a very short time) when the series only needed a REFINEMENT.

Their information suggested that, critical acclaim notwithstanding, there were a lot of people out there who weren't champing at the bit to get more Baldur's Gate redux.  I know I wasn't.  I enjoyed Origins, but the gameplay had me limping to the finish lne.  It's possible that there are a lot of people like me out there, who don't particularly want the top-down, click-on-the-red-circle combat anymore.

I was happy about some of the stated design direction, although it sounds as though it was horribly rushed and badly implemented.

My personal theory is that they figured they could attract two parallel fanbases with different foci and bring them into the same game.  So, for example, they throw the hardcore Bioware crowd more gay, and give the teeming masses (they hoped) of action gamers blood fountains.  So, the story element/omnisexual romance crowd is happy, and the awesome button-mashing crowd are both happy, right?

The problem is that so many things went wrong, it's hard to isolate any variables.  If the game hadn't been so rushed, how many more people would have been happy?  How much storytelling (read: dialogue screens) do action gamers want?  How much will they sit through?  Will the self-proclaimed hardcore RPG folks be able to accept a well done action RPG if there aren't enough numbers to fiddle with?  Perhaps there weren't enough romanceable inanimate objects.  The list goes on and on!

I think the design wasn't cohesive enough and the game was rushed, but I'm not convinced that a good reboot couldn't have been a winner.

The whole bloody point of DAO was to be a "Baldur's Gate redux" as you put it, so I say screw those people who didn't want that type of game, as they were clearly told with lines such as "the spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate" what type of game they'd be getting beforehand. It wasn't made for people who didn't want that type of game. It was made for people who did. There are a myriad of action RPGs out there. This is the first Bioware game I bought since NWN.

The question that remains is: why was the sequel made for people who don't like Baldur's Gate/DAO, fans of those games be damned? I can't be the only one struggling to find the logic in this.

[Elhanan]

DanaScu wrote...

DA2 is such a great game that the sales figures are out of sight hot-rod-samurai fantastic, right? I mean, it was just so AWESOME to fight like a SPARTAN and think like a GENERAL that the sales for DA2 beat out the current Guinness Book of records holder for most games sold in the first week, right?  oh, wait. No, sorry. That was Bethesda and Fallout 3, iirc. But DA2 is such a step in the right direction that its outselling DA:O by thousands of copies. Proof right there...oh wait. No, it doesn't seem to be.

Maybe, just maybe, they aren't going in the right direction to draw in "real crowds of gamers". Some of the gamers they did draw in are already looking for the next new shiny because they are bored. The "real crowds of gamers" don't seem to be a stable fan-base. How many are going to hang around for DA3, if there is one? How many are going to lose interest and move on to the next new thing? 

At least we can agree in part....

Looking forward to DA3.

Modifié par Elhanan, 27 mai 2011 - 05:33 .

[DanaScu]

aries1001 wrote...

-eh-

what post by Mike Laidlaw?

The only referral (quote) is the one from David Gaider from a month ago....in which he goes through the stages of grief...

http://social.biowar...5/index/7475089

It's in the "registered game owners only general forum".  I played the game. My brother was the one who didn't listen and bought the game. He never made it much further than the second part, lost interest, and quit playing. I played his copy. I am not going to register a copy of the game I didn't buy even though I did play it. I could, since my brother bought the console version and they don't have unique codes, but I won't.

[adneate]

axl99 wrote...
Some of you guys remember what happened with all those EA sports games? They began to sell less and less of it every year. That's exactly what's going to happen to the RPG genre if devs keep doing the same damn thing.

That was more a result of oversaturation than any failure on the part of developers to radically change the fundamentals of EA sports games. It's also seems like a rather pointless comparison to make since a NFL Football game only has one possible ruleset, the rules to NFL Football. RPGs aren't a genre with a firmly codified ruleset, each little offshoot has it's own conventions. If anything making another Origins style game would be a better business decision than making the sub-par Action-RPG game that DA2 is, since tactical CRPGs aren't exactly common these days while Action-RPGs are a dime a dozen. This makes Origins style products far more likely to succeed in the long run of a franchise since it has the market cornered on that style of RPG and faces no direct competition.

[axl99]

@Adneate, Oversaturation and significant lack of innovation. Forget Dragon Age - the notion that making "another game like inserttitlehere" is exactly what's stagnating this industry.

[Aedan_Cousland]

slimgrin wrote...

Look on the bright side. I'm pretty sure they've gotten the message now. Loud and clear.

We can only hope.

If they don't, I'm finished with Bioware and will never buy another one of their games. In fact, I didn't even buy DA2. I rarely preorder games and had heard some of the bad press before release. So I waited, borrowed the game, and decided not to buy it.

DA2 wasn't a bad game. It was alright, but fell far short of great. It was an obvious rush job, was dumbed down, and paled in comparison to DA:O.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

How bad is it that anytime Rinpoche posts, this instantly comes to mind?

Modifié par CoS Sarah Jinstar, 27 mai 2011 - 05:59 .

[Tsuga C]

Captain Sassy Pants wrote...
The question that remains is: why was the sequel made for people who don't like Baldur's Gate/DAO, fans of those games be damned? I can't be the only one struggling to find the logic in this.

*lights sandalwood incense*

Contemplate the hybridized name of EAWare and all shall become clear, Grasshopper.

Ohmmmmm...

Ohmmmmm...

[Ottemis]

Well, I enjoyed the reboot, I don't have a huge issue with the direction they're taking the title in, aslong as future games keep evolving. And that does include taking elements from DAO, DAO:A and DA2. It's only logical they would though.

Asmuch as I enjoyed DAO and BG I also enjoyed DA2, it's not like they stuck a needle in every 'hardcore' fan's eyes.
Then again, whatever you do, some people will love changes, some people will hate them.
Some people will prefer evolution, some people won't.

You can never win them all.

Modifié par Ottemis, 27 mai 2011 - 06:10 .

[KennethAFTopp]

Evolution?
I wouldn't exactly call DAII evolutionary, usually that signifies something positive.

Modifié par KennethAFTopp, 27 mai 2011 - 06:14 .

[Ottemis]

Word nitpicking doesn't change the statement =P

[KennethAFTopp]

Ottemis wrote...

Word nitpicking doesn't change the statement =P

No it does not, but it does seem like a barb to those people who has legitimate complains about the over game that is DAII.

[Jademoon121]

DAII is a spin-off in terms of its legacy, nothing more, nothing less.