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TonyTheBossDanza123 wrote...
Assuming you mean you're an artist of imagery, I dare you to do a piece of art that takes you a half hour for a commision and give it to the consumer. If they AREN'T complaining I'll be surprised"
Modifié par axl99, 27 mai 2011 - 08:49 .
JohnEpler wrote...
Dragoonlordz wrote...
Everything in the computing world is based on mathamatics even the art from position of the pixels or polygons and vectors, number of pixels, polygons and vectors and colour codes made up of percentile figures from each colour tone. Just because it's behind the scenes and not visable when creating doesn't make it less true.
I've stayed out of this thread for the most part, but I do have to take issue with this point. Whether everything 'behind the scenes' is math, that doesn't shift the visual side of things into the same arena. For writing, cinematic design and art (whether animation, modelling, whichever particular sub-discipline you'd like to use), much of what is being done is based on gut feeling. Certainly, we use software and programming to allow for its visual representation, but aside from ensuring that things are technically sound, the vast majority of my job falls more towards the artistic side of things than it does the technical. If all I had was a technical understanding of how content was created, I doubt I'd be able to do my job to any appropriate standard.
And even within programming and scripting, there's a lot of creativity. The best programmers are those who can approach a problem in a creative fashion and solve it in that same fashion. Just because it deals with math and logic, doesn't mean it can't be creative. There's far more right brain than left brain in my particular field of work, and while the left brain is more dominant in other disciplines, that doesn't mean the right brain goes unused. Far from it.
Though I admit that I'm not entirely clear what point you were making, so I may be arguing against a point you didn't even try to make. In which case, ignore this
Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 27 mai 2011 - 08:52 .
Mash Mashington wrote...
oldmansavage wrote...
Everyones delicate sensibilities aside I come from a more commercial approach. You make a product I don't like that I payed good money for then I have every right to spew forth vitriol, rhetoric or reasonable criticism, whichever I prefer.
I'm sure if you had any idea what's it like to get feedback for your work through internet you'd never say it. Because this thread is a perfect demonstration of how disproportionate this sort of feedback is. It's very refreshing that these days you can sit in comfort and take your real life frustration on some kind of medium (be it videogame, movie or an article in a newspaper). But it always hurts to read even constructive criticism when it comes in barbaric form of "DA2 is a flaming piece of poop" or some such. I know most people who are familiar with this kind of feedback learn to filter through it, but the lack of empathy and the lack of desire to actually think on your posts (because only this way we can have civilized interaction) is incredibly depressing.
/rant. Nobody's going to take it seriously but at least now i feel better
Dragoonlordz wrote...
My original point as you rightly stated at the end was not about creativity of how you approach design but that all design (mechanics) are based around numbers behind the scenes that is all. I work in CAD I know that it goes on and especially when dealing in vectors and accuracy but that doesn't mean you can apply imagination to the art it just means the system is working on the mathamatics behind your creations even if you don't see it. When you draw a simple line from A to B while the shape of your line is done using your own choice and imagination it doesn't change the fact that the points are based on mathamatical points with curvature again using maths to achieve the result you see and desire.
My original comment where the other poster said it's not like mathamatics, I was merely pointing out it relys on mathamatics regardless of creativity just that you don't realise it as you create your images.
Modifié par axl99, 27 mai 2011 - 08:56 .
TonyTheBossDanza123 wrote...
While many of the pre-release complaints were, as you stated, different, to say that they didn't affect sales is a stretch. On top of that, a large complaint was, as I said in the original post, the fear that the game was being rushed out. We were told it was in development long before DAO released, and that it wasn't rushed. We were lied too.
Modifié par In Exile, 27 mai 2011 - 08:56 .
axl99 wrote...
Dragoonlordz wrote...
My original point as you rightly stated at the end was not about creativity of how you approach design but that all design (mechanics) are based around numbers behind the scenes that is all. I work in CAD I know that it goes on and especially when dealing in vectors and accuracy but that doesn't mean you can apply imagination to the art it just means the system is working on the mathamatics behind your creations even if you don't see it. When you draw a simple line from A to B while the shape of your line is done using your own choice and imagination it doesn't change the fact that the points are based on mathamatical points with curvature again using maths to achieve the result you see and desire.
My original comment where the other poster said it's not like mathamatics, I was merely pointing out it relys on mathamatics regardless of creativity just that you don't realise it as you create your images.
And you apparently don't realize that some artists take the machiavellian approach to their work. That also doesn't change the fact that logical programming knowledge and technology has to be tailor-made for their needs to complete a project.
Melca36 wrote...
You are delusional. It won many awards and will likely still sell MORE than DA:2.
And I suggest you wake up and join reality.
axl99 wrote...
I'm saying they don't care so long as the software they've got helps them do their job.
Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 27 mai 2011 - 09:09 .
General Malor wrote...
The second thing they are a liar about is thinking they know how to improve the product. They know what they want to see, but they have no idea the amount of effort it takes to craft a game with broad appeal. So when they say "this feature doesn't work, do this instead" they are liars due to ignorance.
Modifié par inkjay, 27 mai 2011 - 09:05 .
JohnEpler wrote...
And even within programming and scripting, there's a lot of creativity. The best programmers are those who can approach a problem in a creative fashion and solve it in that same fashion. Just because it deals with math and logic, doesn't mean it can't be creative. There's far more right brain than left brain in my particular field of work, and while the left brain is more dominant in other disciplines, that doesn't mean the right brain goes unused. Far from it.
Someone starts a topic to argue about comments made by the developer, regarding a product that they DIDN'T buy?TonyTheBossDanza123 wrote...
So Since I was one of the many who waited for reviews to buy DA2, and consequently DIDN'T buy DA2...
Modifié par Thandal NLyman, 27 mai 2011 - 09:27 .
RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...
DAO was a throwback and only had the appeal of a throwback. Nostalgia. Now that the nostalgia is over, it's time to move on to a new formula. That's what DA2 is. He shouldn't apologize for making positive changes. There will be more down the road as the formula is refined, moving RPGs away from the boring old games that no one enjoyed.
Modifié par Corto81, 27 mai 2011 - 09:20 .
Corto81 wrote...
I'll quote Gaider again, word for word:
"Origins sold awesomely, because it was an awesome game."
I remember that conversation because he was having it with me.AlanC9 wrote...
Should I dig up the quote where Gaider doubted DAO's profitability?Might even be in the same thread.
Deathwurm wrote...
I'll simply say as someone who hasn't played DA2 yet because I simply can't afford it right now, not because of anyone's opinion of it:
How can anyone honestly say they have made a valid critique of the Game if they haven't played it?
Folks Post saying that they enjoyed their experience and are overwhelmed with Posts about how stupid they are and yet people who haven't played it rake it over the coals and expect to be Validated?
That simply doesn't make any sense.
I'll reserve any judgement on it until AFTER I have played it.
In Exile wrote...
ME2 in fantasy, not alpha build I bought at full price.
Ottemis wrote...
@TonyTheBossDanza123
No-one would enjoy nor PICK to do any kind of art-piece within for them un-realistic time-spans.
And yes with ANY art personal preference and opinions, negative feedback are bound to be had.
That doesn't mean it's bad though, but always always hard to hear.
There are those on these forums that very unconstructively, abusively voice their opinions, or even spout them to be general truth. This is the thing concearn was voiced over, NOT constructive critisism.
AlanC9 wrote...
Corto81 wrote...
I'll quote Gaider again, word for word:
"Origins sold awesomely, because it was an awesome game."
Should I dig up the quote where Gaider doubted DAO's profitability?Might even be in the same thread.
Thandal NLyman wrote...
I'm coming to this thread a little late, and I'm not going to scroll through over 200 posts to see if there was an update, but did I read the OP correctly?!?Someone starts a topic to argue about comments made by the developer, regarding a product that theyDIDN'T buy?TonyTheBossDanza123 wrote...
So Since I was one of the many who waited for reviews to buy DA2, and consequently DIDN'T buy DA2...
I can almost see where this might have been appropriate as a post to that thread, but to start a new one simply to argue the points that Mr. Laidlaw raised, (from the other perspective) seems both superfluous and more than a bit mean-spirited.
Based on the lack of a DA2 badge under the OP's avi, I'm guessing that they stuck with "didn't buy". So I have to wonder if their opinions are based on second- (or third-) hand information. And while it may not be totally without value, I heavily discount what someone thinks about a game they haven't played. Gaming experiences are too subjective for one to make broad generalizations based on someone else's summary theirs. I might make my own purchase decision that way, but I would never believe that I'm then in a position to tell the developer what's wrong with their creation.
[Edit] "Things that make you go hmmm..." Scroll through the thread and notice the incredibly high percentage of posts by people who (judging by their game badges) don't actually have DA2.
TonyTheBossDanza123 wrote...
I think many people, myself to an extent included, feel that that's exactly what we got.
By that logic, DA2 is not an awesome game. It's a mediocre game that is definitively inferior to DAO. And don't say "Opinions", because your argument is that sales=quality.
It's not me being a hypocrit, pointing out that others seem to want to glance over the amount of effort it takes to make a solid title. All I was saying with that was I would like to see some appreciation for Bioware and what they have done already. There seems to be a fault in the opposition where they think what they do is simple or that anything is an easy fix. I don't like that. I understand that more goes into making a major label game than I've had experience with, so at least I'm admitting that I'm not an expert. But the opposition makes no such statement, they just go on as if they know what they are talking about or understand the scope the endeavor that is making a mass appeal game.inkjay wrote...
General Malor wrote...
The second thing they are a liar about is thinking they know how to improve the product. They know what they want to see, but they have no idea the amount of effort it takes to craft a game with broad appeal. So when they say "this feature doesn't work, do this instead" they are liars due to ignorance.
Well that is more of a flawed argument than before then. It might be that the average consumer doesn't really know how much effort goes into making games this day and age, I doubt even you do, and calling them liars is a bit näive and hypocritic. As a consumer I have the right to call Bioware out on what they did worse than before tho, it is Bioware's job to figure it out, not mine.
Ultimately, the problem is not that they can't (we know they do if they give it time and resources) it is that they won't accept their failures, and don't want to make a better game, just one that sells better and can be kicked out of the door in 18 months time at the lowest cost possible. They showed this with DA2.
In Exile wrote...
TonyTheBossDanza123 wrote...
I think many people, myself to an extent included, feel that that's exactly what we got.
Let me clarify my comment: I was saying that the pre-release criticism was that DA2 would be ME2. Are you saying that you feel DA2 is equivalent in quality to ME2? What I'm saying is that whatever DA2 could have been, we're playing an alpha build.
I'm saying that ME2 is a great game, and DA2 isn't.By that logic, DA2 is not an awesome game. It's a mediocre game that is definitively inferior to DAO. And don't say "Opinions", because your argument is that sales=quality.
To play Devil's Advocate, we don't know how much it cost to make DA2. Even though it only sold 1,000,000 or so copies, it could have been cheaper to make, and so more profitable.
Scimal wrote...
That said, there's no reason they should really listen to the people on these forums more than their internal employees who direct the game's direction.
General Malor wrote...
It's not me being a hypocrit, pointing out that others seem to want to glance over the amount of effort it takes to make a solid title. All I was saying with that was I would like to see some appreciation for Bioware and what they have done already. There seems to be a fault in the opposition where they think what they do is simple or that anything is an easy fix. I don't like that. I understand that more goes into making a major label game than I've had experience with, so at least I'm admitting that I'm not an expert. But the opposition makes no such statement, they just go on as if they know what they are talking about or understand the scope the endeavor that is making a mass appeal game.inkjay wrote...
General Malor wrote...
The second thing they are a liar about is thinking they know how to improve the product. They know what they want to see, but they have no idea the amount of effort it takes to craft a game with broad appeal. So when they say "this feature doesn't work, do this instead" they are liars due to ignorance.
Well that is more of a flawed argument than before then. It might be that the average consumer doesn't really know how much effort goes into making games this day and age, I doubt even you do, and calling them liars is a bit näive and hypocritic. As a consumer I have the right to call Bioware out on what they did worse than before tho, it is Bioware's job to figure it out, not mine.
Ultimately, the problem is not that they can't (we know they do if they give it time and resources) it is that they won't accept their failures, and don't want to make a better game, just one that sells better and can be kicked out of the door in 18 months time at the lowest cost possible. They showed this with DA2.
That is my problem that I mentioned in the second statement, and that was the point of it. So to my they are liars, when they make claims of knowing how to do it better. At the very least they appear to be disingenous uncouth critics.
I don't really see how they have shown that they "won't accept their failures". In fact I feel that they have shown that they are aware of the faults of Dragon Age 2, and that they are trying to enhance the product that will be the next Dragon Age title. They have informed us and showed us that they do listen to feedback and take it into consideration.
Davasar wrote...
Deathwurm wrote...
I'll simply say as someone who hasn't played DA2 yet because I simply can't afford it right now, not because of anyone's opinion of it:
How can anyone honestly say they have made a valid critique of the Game if they haven't played it?
Folks Post saying that they enjoyed their experience and are overwhelmed with Posts about how stupid they are and yet people who haven't played it rake it over the coals and expect to be Validated?
That simply doesn't make any sense.
I'll reserve any judgement on it until AFTER I have played it.
Because elements that I KNOW I DO NOT LIKE that have been in other games I have played, exist in DA2. It's really that simple.
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