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[polytope]

BelgarathMTH wrote...

Burning Hands (troll killer)

Chromatic orb will serve for killing trolls, as it's acid damage, and doesn't require your mage to get in melee range. I miss unfixpacked BG2 where the poison from summoned spiders could also finish trolls.

amanasleep wrote...

At the risk of buying into your thread-jack (this is a thread for worst Sorc picks, not best), I would note that Mantle spells are terrible in Vanilla compared to PfmW, and it makes no sense for you to suggest them but exclude PfMW because it would get dispelled. So would they, and you should definitely run SI: Abj if you fear dispels.

Even in a modded game I hardly ever use mantle spells - the only fight I remember where Improved Mantle might be better than PfMW is aVENGER's Chosen of Cyric encounter.

amanasleep wrote...
Feeblemind: Pointless. Will never get through a mage's defense, and you have Hold Monster and Domination at the same level.

Bear in mind that immunity to hold and charm is much more common than immunity to feeblemindedness - in unmodded BG2 only demons are immune.

amanasleep wrote...

Horror and Stinking Cloud: Inferior to Web and have save bonuses.

Agreed about Horror, SC is better than Web against mages - who have better saves vs spell than death - of course with difficulty enhancing mods most mages have globes of invulnerability, which block both.

The irony of this thread is that people can no more agree on the worst spells for a sorcerer than the best.

[amanasleep]

The spread between Mage saves vs. Death and Spells is 2-4 depending on level, and the spread between SC save at +2 and Web save at -2 is 4, so Web is always superior.

Modifié par amanasleep, 03 juillet 2011 - 05:36 .

[Yrkoon]

BelgarathMTH wrote...

Nobody that knows what they're doing would call Magic Missile or Mirror Image "useless". Sorry, but I really would be surprised if many people challenged me on that. And your analysis of high-level spells? Are you being sarcastic?

LOL

I thought it was obvious that I was being scathingly tongue in cheek  (who puts 3 infravisions in a spell trigger?)







(well, besides  competative powergamers like me)

[Yrkoon]

amanasleep wrote...

To atone for my participation in the thread-jack, here's my list of worst spells that people commonly think are good:

Chain Lightning: Terrible damage.
Feeblemind: Pointless. Will never get through a mage's defense, and you have Hold Monster and Domination at the same level.
Lightning Bolt: Impossible to use correctly, unless you are getting mass MGoI from Limited Wish.
Vocalize: Carry scrolls. Never memorize this. Amulet of Power when Solo.
Horror and Stinking Cloud: Inferior to Web and have save bonuses.

PS I love Luck. It can save you 60 damage when somebody drops a Sequencer: 3x Skull Trap on you.

ooh, lets go with this.

First, I do agree with your list there.  Though I would add an astrik after Chain lightning.  It's party friendly.  And it does come in useful in those occasions when your death spell doesn't wipe out the trash mobs  that  are bunched around you.


Some more spells people think are awesome but really aren't all that:

Tensor's transformation -  worthless.  turns you into a fighter of the same level.    Question:  why turn your sorcerer into a fighter, when you can be  a   sorcerer instead, and you know.... cast spells....  or summon things to fight for you?

Spell Turning - :::Yawn::::  don't see the great need for this one.   there are 5th level spells that will  protect you just as well, and last they'll  longer.  And there are items in this game that will make  stuff "bounce back" to their source.

Maze - pointless waste of an 8th level spell slot, especially for a sorcerer.  It kills nothing.  and in some instances it will protect the enemy its cast upon.  And your sorcerer shouldn't be "putting things off for later" anyway.

Symbol, Stun -  Seriously?  you're gonna waste an 8th level mage spell slot on this?  Why not just take Horrid Wilting and blast enemies out of existance from the get go?   Or better yet, why not use the 4th level  emotion: hopelessness spell for basically the same effect?

Protection from energy-   not worth it.  should be 5th level, tops.

Black blade of Disaster - I know posters on this very forum who swear by this spell.  But despite the years of heated, and excruciatingly long discussion, I still don't see its appeal.  it's 9th level, which means its worth is measured by its peers.  That being the case, why not just toss out a Dragon's Breath or Comet and wipe out the entire field at once, instead of summoning a sword then using it in melee against 1 foe at a time?    Or for that matter, why not just shapechange into a mindflayer and kill things faster in melee?  By the way, a summoned Planetar's  attack is better than a BBoD.

Improved Invisibility -  Unless your game is baldudashed or G3 fixed, this spell will actually be weaker than its level 2 version, since it'll only last 1 round per level, and will give you exactly 0 AC and saves bonus.

[AnonymousHero]

Yrkoon wrote...
Protection from energy-   not worth it.  should be 5th level, tops.

Crucial for no-reloaders.

Yrkoon wrote...
Black blade of Disaster - I know posters on this very forum who swear by this spell.  But despite the years of heated, and excruciatingly long discussion, I still don't see its appeal.  ...

Methinks that would probably be F/M or T/M players. Still, personally, I haven't used this spell. Ever.

Yrkoon wrote...

Improved Invisibility -  Unless your game is baldudashed or G3 fixed, this spell will actually be weaker than its level 2 version, since it'll only last 1 round per level, and will give you exactly 0 AC and saves bonus.

Even in an un-fixpacked game it prevents you from being targeted by enemy spellcasters even after becoming partially visible. That's a huge deal.

[amanasleep]

Yrkoon wrote...

Tensor's transformation -  worthless.  turns you into a fighter of the same level.    Question:  why turn your sorcerer into a fighter, when you can be  a   sorcerer instead, and you know.... cast spells....  or summon things to fight for you?

First of all, Tensor is a mathematical constrtuct.  Tenser is the wizard.

TT can be good depending on your build.  The cool thing about Sorcs is they can support alot of variety.  See Alesia_BH's melee sorcerer build in the NR challenge if you don't believe me.  I agree for the average sorc build it's a waste.

Symbol, Stun -  Seriously?  you're gonna waste an 8th level mage spell slot on this?  Why not just take Horrid Wilting and blast enemies out of existance from the get go?   Or better yet, why not use the 4th level  emotion: hopelessness spell for basically the same effect?

Some things are immune to sleep and magic damage, but not stun.  Like Melissan, for instance.  Still probably sub-optimal.

[BelgarathMTH]

Yikes. I wasn't trying to start an argument or hijack a thread. I thought that what somebody does use was relevant to the topic of what not to use.

Plus I think I responded seriously to something that was meant as a joke.

I'm gonna just shut up and stay out of this one, now. Sorry for causing offense.

[Shadow_Leech07]

Optimal sorc lists depend on the game installed. Otherwise expect wide variance in list.

[touch_of_the_void]

BelgarathMTH wrote...

Yikes. I wasn't trying to start an argument or hijack a thread. I thought that what somebody does use was relevant to the topic of what not to use.

Plus I think I responded seriously to something that was meant as a joke.

I'm gonna just shut up and stay out of this one, now. Sorry for causing offense.

Don't worry I'm sure nobody was offended. Yrkoon's post was a joke but it's hardly worth losing sleep over. Keep posting if you want, you weren't derailing the thread.

[Windfoot]

TT has some circumstances where it really shines.

It can be put in a contingency to save your **** !!!
Doubling the caster's hp and reducing his ac by 4 is pretty powerful and add in +2 to hit and +2 damage using a fighters THAC0 table and the caster can be a powerhouse. Using a str belt and a melee staff makes this even more powerful. It really helps when you've pushed a little to far without resting.

For even more cheese use it with a F->M dual...you can end up with more than 200 hp!

[AnonymousHero]

Shadow_Leech07 wrote...

Optimal sorc lists depend on the game installed. Otherwise expect wide variance in list.

This.

It also depends heavily on play style and choice of general tactics.

There is no right answer.

EDIT: Of course, that doesn't mean you can't compare or discuss advantages/disadvantages of individual spells or groupings of spells, but if past experience is any guide very little good comes of discussing "best sorcerer spell picks". (The entire premise of there actually being a "best" set of picks is invalid.)

Modifié par AnonymousHero, 03 juillet 2011 - 10:08 .

[BelgarathMTH]

You know, I kind of wonder if this whole subject might not be flame bait - because, something that one person picks for "worst sorcerer spell" might be another person's very favorite spell!

There's room for some individual preference. It's one thing for a sincere sorcerer-player to post asking for advice about what they should pick or avoid. But I think maybe this is something else a little less beneficent.

[Triaxx2]

Doesn't Tenser's synergize well with Polymorph?

[kenng]

I think what we are seeing are a lot of spells which can be situationally useful, but otherwise quite limited in their scope. For example, my sorc used tenser's transformation just once in the whole game (vs kangaxx in his demilich form, because no other spell worked). However, I could never seem to have enough castings of it as a kensai/mage. It was less useful as a fighter/mage because your thaco doesn't improve (your wiz lv is invariably always lower than your fighter side).

Prot from elements is the lazy mage's buff, I just cast it to gain virtually immunity to every element (in tandem with hell resistances) because I cannot be bothered to acquire the appropriate scrolls.

The other buffs are more useful to a fighter/mage. They already excel at dealing damage, no point competing in that department with damage spells. Instead, we should focus on buff spells which further complement their damage dealing capabilities, such as improved haste, as well as debuffs like slow/symbol of stun which disable the enemies and reduce their ability to fight back. Over the duration of a fight, I believe they are no less effective than horrid wilting or skull trap.

[polytope]

amanasleep wrote...

The spread between Mage saves vs. Death and Spells is 2-4 depending on level, and the spread between SC save at +2 and Web save at -2 is 4, so Web is always superior.

That's how it's supposed to work, but many mages have illegally low saves vs spell - take a look at Rayic Gethras, cowled enforcers, Drow wizards etc. Also SC can be made party friendly more easily than web (it's comparatively easy to get your frontliners' saving throws vs death below zero).

Regardless, neither web nor SC could possibly make the list of worst spells.

Triaxx2 wrote...

Doesn't Tenser's synergize well with Polymorph?

Unfortunately even innate abilities like shapeshift between forms are disabled by TT, so it's less useful than it would seem.

The only time I used TT (from a scroll) as a solo sorcerer was to fight the Trademeet Rakshasas - as they have annoyingly low AC and are immune to low level spells. And that's probably not a good idea with SCS either...

[touch_of_the_void]

polytope wrote...

Triaxx2 wrote...

Doesn't Tenser's synergize well with Polymorph?

Unfortunately even innate abilities like shapeshift between forms are disabled by TT, so it's less useful than it would seem.

The only time I used TT (from a scroll) as a solo sorcerer was to fight the Trademeet Rakshasas - as they have annoyingly low AC and are immune to low level spells. And that's probably not a good idea with SCS either...

Yes, to get use out of TT with Polymorph or Shapechange you need to have changed form before you use TT. Meaning you have to cast TT via (Chain) Contingency or Spell Trigger.

Modifié par touch_of_the_void, 05 juillet 2011 - 09:11 .

[Triaxx2]

Ah. Makes sense. Of course since I can also add defensive abilities, like Stoneskin and Mirror Image...

[Seagloom]

BelgarathMTH wrote...

Fireball is not as useful as you think. 10d6, hurts your party worse than the enemy in most of BG2)

This is one of those commonly perceived BG2 truisms I always disagreed with. Granted, it is not a baseless argument. A poorly aimed fireball can be devastating to the party--especially early on. It is also true skull trap has double the damage potential. However, I still consider fireball and its older sister, delayed blast fireball among my favorite spells in the game.

The pleasure of burning enemies with exploding flames aside, it is one of the safest spells to use with a bit of preparation. Fire resistance is so easy to come by in BG2, that I can easily ward my chosen two front line fighters with 100% immunity long before chapter two's conclusion. Fireball and delayed blast fireball inflict decent damage when taking into consideration how safe it is to cast them into the front line. In situations where I need coverage for the entire party, protection from fire can see them through most battles easily enough.

I always found skull trap more annoying because it requires fairly precise preparation and is not as easy to find defenses against. It may deal higher damage, but I much prefer the convenience of fire spells. Lightning bolt and cone of cold are also easy to utilize for similar reasons. I never understood what is so dangerous about these spells when the game is awash in defensive items and magic.

Modifié par Seagloom, 13 juillet 2011 - 07:35 .

[BelgarathMTH]

Well, I didn't say it was useless. I've used it to good effect through about early SoA.

I've just always been underwhelmed by the amount of damage it does compared to a good melee fighter starting in late SoA, especially if you are a Squishy Wizard without melee support who is counting on it to save your life. (It usually doesn't. It mostly just makes them really mad.)

But even if I'm wrong about that and it's just a matter of play style, I am "good" to the core, and I simply cannot reconcile my conscience to using my imagined superpowers to burn living, sentient beings to death.

[Seagloom]

My apologies if it seemed like I was singling you out. This is just something I have heard for a long, long time and is a bit of a pet peeve. It's true, those spells rarely compare to a dual wielding blender carving through enemies like cardboard. I prefer playing mages, though, so I live with that. Besides, it's still way better than in 3e where direct damage takes an even worse hit. Compared to that I find BG2 fireball godly.

Props for playing a different kind of mage, by the way. I tried an enchantment focused buffing mage once and it was pretty fun. I do think fireball's usefulness is subjective depending on the player's needs. I probably wouldn't find it as useful soloing since I'd have to sacrifice valuable ring slots for fire resistance. I think it's better in a party, oddly enough.

Modifié par Seagloom, 13 juillet 2011 - 07:57 .

[BelgarathMTH]

No need to apologize, Seagloom. I was sure you and I should be friends, even if we enjoy debating the ins and outs of D&D spells and have different opinions about style and/or roleplay.

If Fireball is your favorite spell, then "Flame on!", my friend. Perhaps you enjoy being a female version of the Human Torch from the Fantastic Four.

[Triaxx2]

I have to agree, I love fireball, as my primary method of delivering burning death. It's particularly of use for clearing out large groups of weak enemies, which tend to crop up early on, like Kobolds and Goblins and softening Hobgoblins.

I'm not such a fan of Skull Trap, because then I've got to draw my enemies into it and that requires that I get into range of it. Fireball works better as my stealth opener, and particularly in a Spell Sequencer or Trigger. 3xFireball HURTS. Not as much as an ADHW, but it's available earlier.

As for Lightning Bolt, it's mostly a matter of being able to manipulate the angles to annoy the enemies. Particularly shooting it through a door to first strike an enemy mage. Might not kill them, but it'll sure bring them running to you. Especially if you've set up a delayed blast fireball in the path they'll run.

[Seagloom]

@Belgarath

Ah good. For a moment there I thought I put my foot in my mouth... again. It happens to me with alarming frequency. XD I think a better comparison would be Storm of X-Men fame. I'm an equal opportunity elemental magic user. If I had to pick a favorite it would be lightning despite how terrifying I find it in reality. Sadly BG2 is woefully lacking in electricity spells.

@Triaxx

Yup! I prefer casting it in a corridor where I can bounce the bolt between walls and decimate anyone walking through it. That can be dangerous early on, but it becomes a lot easier once someone in the group has protection from electricity ready. I also find teaming up my warded sorceress with whoever is wearing the cloak of reflection can lead to insane bouncing results. Lightning bolt is okay as a one shot, but bouncing a bolt or three from a trigger is insane. Criminally underrated spell in my opinion.

Modifié par Seagloom, 13 juillet 2011 - 10:55 .

[Triaxx2]

On the other hand, it does make a handy first strike in a Chain Contingency, particularly against enemies that try and throw up contingencies quickly. Blazing away with three blasts of lightning right away will usually punch through just about anything they've put up in short order.

Quite handy if you get the right angle to repeatedly blast a Dragon with it. Particularly with the Cloak of Reflection. Might not work against toughened enemies, but does a good job softening up Firky.

I've been using Fireball, followed by Chain Lightning, to deal with Ghouls and lesser Mummies. I only find it a pity that there's not a 3.5e style bar of lightning.

[Seagloom]

I will have to try using lightning bolt that way next time. Long years of BG2 have trained my brain to rely on conventional dispelling magic or power word spells. Fireball is often my go to spell for canon fodder as well. Sometimes I will set up x3 cone of cold if they are too hardy for a cookout.

Modifié par Seagloom, 14 juillet 2011 - 09:47 .