32 réponses à ce sujet

[jamesp81]

Especially once you have done the collector ship mission and taken your choice of advanced weapon training?

I find that I can kill with it at close range a bit more quickly than with the Tempest.  Before I do the collector ship mission I favor the Locust, but once I have a shotgun, the Mattock, or a sniper rifle, my SMG is relegated to use as a sidearm for point blank, in your face fighting, and I find I prefer the Shuriken for that role to the Tempest.

[Locutus_of_BORG]

No, you're not. The Shuriken has been well proven to have the best anti-shield DPS of the three. Still, much like the SGs, each SMG has its own quirks that give them a certain appeal over the rest.

Eg: I personally prefer the Tempest up close b/c of its huge clip, though I know I lose out a bit in DPS. Also, I like the Locust overall, although it is the weakest vs shields, and its lower RPM and no stagger sometimes means ppl can dodge b/w its shots.

Modifié par Locutus_of_BORG, 27 mai 2011 - 07:33 .

[Sailears]

Yeah, feathering the shuriken is deadly, but tempest is nice because of less strain on your finger!

[termokanden]

At the moment I prefer the Shuriken simply because I've used the others too much.

[Sparrow44]

Shruiken is my fave SMG out of the three, though it can take a bit of research upgrades and a decent ammo power for it to truly shine. Of course there's feathering the trigger to get near-enough full auto fire and the need to get in close for it to maximize it's DPS output.

On a Vanguard I've found it surprisingly decent when against armor with Inferno Ammo equipped on it though that could be the point blank bonus, but still IMO a very underrated weapon.

[Saaziel]

I'm also one of those wierdos that likes the Shuriken.

The kick back really adds a sense that you're shooting one hell of a gun. That said the design isn't that great , the Locust & Tempest look far more like what I'd imagine a SMG would look like.

[Locutus_of_BORG]

^I like the Tempest's large clip b/c having to reload when up close and personal with enemies is a PITA.

I can actually tell the damage difference when using the Shuriken, but being a fan of the laze, I prefer the Tempest just for being less work to use.

[goofyomnivore]

It is nice when you feather the trigger and overlap the three round bursts. I'm kind of like Locust though -- I take the lazy route and just use the Tempest less damage but less work.

[JaegerBane]

Locutus_of_BORG wrote...

No, you're not. The Shuriken has been well proven to have the best anti-shield DPS of the three. Still, much like the SGs, each SMG has its own quirks that give them a certain appeal over the rest.

Has it?

Eg: I personally prefer the Tempest up close b/c of its huge clip, though I know I lose out a bit in DPS. Also, I like the Locust overall, although it is the weakest vs shields, and its lower RPM and no stagger sometimes means ppl can dodge b/w its shots.

Much as someone else has already mentioned in this thread, the biggest issue I have with the Shuriken is that it's only really any good in situations where a shotgun would just be flatly better - I'd rather use a shotgun to do the job of a shotgun, not an SMG. The others handle different stuff better.

It's fairly difficult for me to choose out of the two good SMGs. The Tempest has a staggering rate of fire and good DPS but it's lack of accuracy makes it a purely close range tool, though favouring different situations to a shotgun. The Locust's fire rate leaves a lot to be desired but is so accurate and powerful it can be used very effectively in virtually any situation. I'd probably say that, out of the two, I prefer the Locust, but only just. Ultimately it's ME2's equivalent of ME1's Master Marksman.

If I'm using a modded character, such as my Assassin Adept build which is modded to carry an SMG, an AR, a SR and a shotty, I prefer to take the Tempest. The combo of blistering fire rate and large ammo pool makes it a cracking CQB weapon that compliments the shotties, with the AR and SR covering any long range stuff.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 28 mai 2011 - 12:33 .

[Locutus_of_BORG]

JaegerBane wrote...

Locutus_of_BORG wrote...

No, you're not. The Shuriken has been well proven to have the best anti-shield DPS of the three. Still, much like the SGs, each SMG has its own quirks that give them a certain appeal over the rest.

Has it?

IDK, I'm guessing those figures might have been generated w/o trigger feathering taken into account. I'm sure it's been posted on the forums here that the Shuriken outdamages the Tempest.

...If I'm wrong, well, my bad. Just use the Tempest / Locust, kids   

Eg: I personally prefer the Tempest up close b/c of its huge clip, though I know I lose out a bit in DPS. Also, I like the Locust overall, although it is the weakest vs shields, and its lower RPM and no stagger sometimes means ppl can dodge b/w its shots.

Much as someone else has already mentioned in this thread, the biggest issue I have with the Shuriken is that it's only really any good in situations where a shotgun would just be flatly better - I'd rather use a shotgun to do the job of a shotgun, not an SMG. The others handle different stuff better.

It's fairly difficult for me to choose out of the two good SMGs. The Tempest has a staggering rate of fire and good DPS but it's lack of accuracy makes it a purely close range tool, though favouring different situations to a shotgun. The Locust's fire rate leaves a lot to be desired but is so accurate and powerful it can be used very effectively in virtually any situation. I'd probably say that, out of the two, I prefer the Locust, but only just. Ultimately it's ME2's equivalent of ME1's Master Marksman.

If I'm using a modded character, such as my Assassin Adept build which is modded to carry an SMG, an AR, a SR and a shotty, I prefer to take the Tempest. The combo of blistering fire rate and large ammo pool makes it a cracking CQB weapon that compliments the shotties, with the AR and SR covering any long range stuff.

I find the Shuriken accuracy / optimal range isn't any worse than the Tempest's, but I fully agree with you on the Shotguns bit. You can't really go toe-to-toe with any shotgun using an SMG... you need to stay back a bit. However, this is where I find the Tempest's clip to be an advantage; it's more forgiving for missed shots, allows for more run-n-gun, and lets you put more bullets down when you've got a good bead on someone (provided its dmg per clip makes it worthwhile... which idk, but I feel it does).

Modifié par Locutus_of_BORG, 28 mai 2011 - 01:25 .

[JaegerBane]

Locutus_of_BORG wrote...
IDK, I'm guessing those figures might have been generated w/o trigger feathering taken into account. I'm sure it's been posted on the forums here that the Shuriken outdamages the Tempest.

...If I'm wrong, well, my bad. Just use the Tempest / Locust, kids   

This is a good analysis of the shield-busting capabilities. The dude did individual tests on manual-tap and holding the button down, the Shuriken still came out looking naff. To be honest there's been this weird myth going around for a while that the Shuriken is 'better', I think TobyGunslinger even put up another test video where he declared the Shuriken better against shields in terms of Raw DPS despite his own video showing no noticeable difference between the speed of shield take down, including missing a bit with the Tempest and still having half a clip left as oppose to the Shuriken being nearly empty. I don't get it

But yeah, the Shuriken is just bogus. It's not as bad as other Tier 1 weapons though, like the Avenger

I find the Shuriken accuracy / optimal range isn't any worse than the Tempest's, but I fully agree with you on the Shotguns bit. You can't really go toe-to-toe with any shotgun using an SMG... you need to stay back a bit. However, this is where I find the Tempest's clip to be an advantage; it's more forgiving for missed shots, allows for more run-n-gun, and lets you put more bullets down when you've got a good bead on someone (provided its dmg per clip makes it worthwhile... which idk, but I feel it does).

It's accuracy isn't bad, no, but I was referring more to the often-repeated comment that the Shuriken works better at quick strikes and whatnot (due to it's higher damage per shot), while the Tempest is better for run-and-gun. My point was purely that if I wanted to get in, do damage and get out ASAP I'd use a gun that fired powerful single shots, not a submachine gun, regardless of whether one particular SMG was better than another at such a task. It's like arguing in favour of using one heavy pistol over another for sniping if you've got an SR already, it's moot.

I still think the Locust is better if you don't have an AR, but if you've got one then yeah, one might as well go for a fully-auto run'n'gun machine and use the rifle for longer range fights, a bit like Halo 2 - one of my fave combos has been the Tempest/Vindicator combo, it's really cool

Modifié par JaegerBane, 28 mai 2011 - 01:43 .

[Clonedzero]

i remember my last vanguard playthrough i had the shuriken equipped and charged thinking i had my shotgun out but then i realized so i feathered the trigger real fast, dumped the entire clip into the guy in like a second, killed him just as fast as using a shotgun.

thats when i realized the intense fun of charging into guys and dumping full auto weapons into their face. sure, not as fool-proof as the shotgun, but still, especially fun when its against unprotected enemies that go flying.

overall though i prefer the tempest though, mostly just due to how wimpy the shuriken looks. but its still a highly underrated weapon imo

[termokanden]

I still firmly believe the Locust is the best SMG. It works up close and, unlike the other SMGs, it shreds enemies full auto at medium to long range. But I just used it too much and got sick of it, particularly the sound.

[Tony Gunslinger]

JaegerBane wrote...
But yeah, the Shuriken is just bogus. It's not as bad as other Tier 1 weapons though, like the Avenger

How dare you to put the Shuriken in the category as that POS weapon:devil:

Regarding cruz1ale's test, I've said in my SMG thread that his test doesn't take into account how it applies to actual combat. First of all in his test, the Shuriken took down shields in 4 seconds by accounting for reload time. Cut out the reload time and it'll be about 2.5 seconds, compared to the Tempest 2.7. Secondly, he took out the 50% shield upgrade to make the dps differences more noticeable in the test, but that skews how these SMGs actually work in conjuntion with using powers and in real gameplay. With the 50% upgrade, the Shuriken would have taken out the shields even faster than the Tempest, thus you're able to use CC powers sooner like AI hacking/Overload/Pull/ etc.

In my test, the Tempest is slighly slower than the Shuriken (probably the .2 difference in cruz1ale's test). That's negligable in and of itself, but those orbs are huge, so the Tempest's cone can hit everything inside its cone. Most enemies you face in real gameplay will be smaller targets and they move around alot, so you will miss quite a few shots.

As for real combat, yes the Tempest contains more damage per clip, but you have to shoot longer than the Shuriken to make it worthwhile. Shooting a full clip of the Tempest takes about 3.25 seconds, plus reloading would be roughly 4.75 seconds. Shooting a full clip of the Shuriken takes 2.05 seconds, plus reloading would be about 3.55. The Locust shoots and reloads also roughly the same time.

Most powers have 6 second cooldowns such as Flashbang, Incinerate. After all the upgrades, that gets reduced to 3.9. I find that casting powers + shooting + reloading + melee with the Shuriken and the Locust fits perfectly in that 3.9 duration. Since the Locust isn't that fast at stripping shields, I often opt for the Shuriken.

Here's how I use the Shuriken in conjunction with powers:


Again, by the I reload the Shuriken, I am ready cast a power. The way I play, I rarely ever emtpy a full clip of the Tempest.

That said, I like the Tempest on my Sentinel and Vanguard because they can survive longer, and reload less so it doesn't interfere with Charge and TA. I also use it with my Engineer because Drone can lock down enemies for quite some time. And the Tempest does look better.

[JaegerBane]

Tony Gunslinger wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...
But yeah, the Shuriken is just bogus. It's not as bad as other Tier 1 weapons though, like the Avenger

How dare you to put the Shuriken in the category as that POS weapon:devil:

Regarding cruz1ale's test, I've said in my SMG thread that his test doesn't take into account how it applies to actual combat. First of all in his test, the Shuriken took down shields in 4 seconds by accounting for reload time. Cut out the reload time and it'll be about 2.5 seconds, compared to the Tempest 2.7. Secondly, he took out the 50% shield upgrade to make the dps differences more noticeable in the test, but that skews how these SMGs actually work in conjuntion with using powers and in real gameplay. With the 50% upgrade, the Shuriken would have taken out the shields even faster than the Tempest, thus you're able to use CC powers sooner like AI hacking/Overload/Pull/ etc.

In my test, the Tempest is slighly slower than the Shuriken (probably the .2 difference in cruz1ale's test). That's negligable in and of itself, but those orbs are huge, so the Tempest's cone can hit everything inside its cone. Most enemies you face in real gameplay will be smaller targets and they move around alot, so you will miss quite a few shots.

As for real combat, yes the Tempest contains more damage per clip, but you have to shoot longer than the Shuriken to make it worthwhile. Shooting a full clip of the Tempest takes about 3.25 seconds, plus reloading would be roughly 4.75 seconds. Shooting a full clip of the Shuriken takes 2.05 seconds, plus reloading would be about 3.55. The Locust shoots and reloads also roughly the same time.

I don't really understand why ignoring things like reloads provides a more accurate picture of how things work in 'actual combat' - one of the major disadvantages of the Shuriken is it's very small clip, and one of the major advantages of the Tempest is it's very large clip, so i can't help feel that the comparison itself becomes skewed if the arbitrary stance is taken to ignore reloads. 

Furthermore, I'm not convinced taking out the S upgrade would have that much of an effect in the actual gameplay. I can see how killing the last portion of shield would have affected the Shuriken's shield takedown speed, but that was against a single, 500 point shield barrier. If that barrier is heavier, or you miss more often, or any of the crazy things that can happen in the gameplay, having a smaller clip and less shots will increase the time required to bring things down. I'm assuming this is what you meant by 'Tempest wins on clip size' with regards to DPS, but surely that is why DPS is measured in the first place, as you can't take into account all of the different situations and varying targets you'll fight across the game. I'm also not sure why the shuriken's ability to empty it's clip faster is is regarded as being in it's favour - it's clip is half the size and stores about 2/3rds the damage a Tempest clip does, so why are the speeds that it each SMG take to empty clips being considered? Of course the Tempest needs more time to empty it's clip, it's doing about 150% of the damage that the Shuriken is doing...

*In this particular situation* in your video, due to a fortuitous combination of fighting a target with defences that could be handled by single Shuriken clip, and being at point blank, and no cover available, the shuriken came out ahead - barely (it almost looks like they finish at the same time). I don't see how that can be extended to every other situation in the game where shield-busting is the objective. If you substituted a YMIR for that orb you would have ended up with a different result. If you substituted a squad of lightly shielded goons it would have been a different result. I can't help but feel that this form of comparison is essentially the opposite of what actual combat would show.

This post has turned out to be far longer than I'd anticipated

And the Tempest does look better.

Definitely

Modifié par JaegerBane, 28 mai 2011 - 05:15 .

[Saaziel]

JaegerBane wrote...

I don't really understand why ignoring things like reloads provides a more accurate picture of how things work in 'actual combat' - one of the major disadvantages of the Shuriken is it's very small clip, and one of the major advantages of the Tempest is it's very large clip, so i can't help feel that the comparison itself becomes skewed if the arbitrary stance is taken to ignore reloads. 

For one thing; You rarely , if ever , have a chance to empty out large clips before going back to cover again. Considering that you'll end up reloading at more or less the same time in either case , the clip size & frequent reloads are less an issue.

Modifié par Saaziel, 28 mai 2011 - 05:47 .

[Locutus_of_BORG]

termokanden wrote...

I still firmly believe the Locust is the best SMG. It works up close and, unlike the other SMGs, it shreds enemies full auto at medium to long range. But I just used it too much and got sick of it, particularly the sound.

That's right - which is why I actually use the Locust the most, even though I make it sound like I'm a Tempest die-hard (which I still kind of am).

I find the Locust generally inferior to the Tempest at close ranges, where accuracy is less of an issue. Its small clip size is somewhat of a problem for me if I can't kill an enemy in a single clip, which happens at times. OTOH, I'm quite sure a Tempest can send off an enemy in much less than a single clip, which gives room for error, which I think is good for when you foolhardily find yourself up against a shogun.

[Tony Gunslinger]

JaegerBane wrote...

I don't really understand why ignoring things like reloads provides a more accurate picture of how things work in 'actual combat' - one of the major disadvantages of the Shuriken is it's very small clip, and one of the major advantages of the Tempest is it's very large clip, so i can't help feel that the comparison itself becomes skewed if the arbitrary stance is taken to ignore reloads. 

You can completely strip and freeze an Elite merc with the Shuriken under Cloak much faster than the Tempest, and regular goons are easy to kill without ammo powers alone, though Incendiary/Cryo always helps. And you can definitely kill elites if all your shots land on his head. That's all under 1 clip of the Shuriken. In that time, the Tempest's damage is still slower, enough of a difference that the merc can shoot one last shot before being frozen. And to deal more damage than the Shuriken, I have to shoot longer where melee's 125 damage x2 from being frozen can get the job done, and that time, my cooldown is already finished so I could use my power (Incinerate/Cloak/FB/NS/ED) if I wanted to. I'll admit, the margin for error is tighter, but the max output of damage is greater than when using the Tempest.

Furthermore, I'm not convinced taking out the S upgrade would have that much of an effect in the actual gameplay. I can see how killing the last portion of shield would have affected the Shuriken's shield takedown speed, but that was against a single, 500 point shield barrier. If that barrier is heavier, or you miss more often, or any of the crazy things that can happen in the gameplay, having a smaller clip and less shots will increase the time required to bring things down. I'm assuming this is what you meant by 'Tempest wins on clip size' with regards to DPS, but surely that is why DPS is measured in the first place, as you can't take into account all of the different situations and varying targets you'll fight across the game. I'm also not sure why the shuriken's ability to empty it's clip faster is is regarded as being in it's favour - it's clip is half the size and stores about 2/3rds the damage a Tempest clip does, so why are the speeds that it each SMG take to empty clips being considered? Of course the Tempest needs more time to empty it's clip, it's doing about 150% of the damage that the Shuriken is doing...

If that shield/barrier is higher then those enemies are most likely to be Harbinger/Praetorians/YMIRs/Geth Primes with multiple defenses, no way am I going to up up against them with my little gun. But, you are able to Cloak + Shuriken and most if not all of its 24 shots will be under cloak, and by the time the YMIR notices you, you are already back under cover to reload. The Tempest takes 3ish secs, and you'll expose yourself longer and take damage, so unless you're willing to take a hit, most likely you'll go back into cover before the clip ends and deal around the same damage as the Shuriken to begin with. There are case where you can deal more damage, such as using squadmates' drone or using them as bait to get its attention off your back.

*In this particular situation* in your video, due to a fortuitous combination of fighting a target with defences that could be handled by single Shuriken clip, and being at point blank, and no cover available, the shuriken came out ahead - barely (it almost looks like they finish at the same time). I don't see how that can be extended to every other situation in the game where shield-busting is the objective. If you substituted a YMIR for that orb you would have ended up with a different result. If you substituted a squad of lightly shielded goons it would have been a different result. I can't help but feel that this form of comparison is essentially the opposite of what actual combat would show.

I have used the Tempest in that fight, and the expanding reticule of the Tempest prevented me from dealing as much damage as the Shuriken, resulting in more geths coming close to me. Also in that particular moment, I didn't use flashbang at all even tho I had a free cooldown to spend. Had I used it earlier rather than later, the Hunter would have staggered, and I would have taken less damage.

And the Tempest does look better.

Definitely

Hell yes. Shuriken is really a machine pistol but it's stuck in the SMG category because of function. I have no idea how they'll incorporate sidearms in ME3. I wish you can holster pistols on the right hip and SMGs on the left waist (and make Shep hold SMGs the right way, dammit).

Modifié par Tony Gunslinger, 28 mai 2011 - 06:26 .

[Samurai_Wahoo]

Depends on the class
Adept = Tempest
Vanguard = Tempest
Infiltrator = Shuriken
Engineer = Shuriken
Sentinel = Not too sure

[Spornicus]

Samurai_Wahoo wrote...

Depends on the class
Adept = Tempest
Vanguard = Tempest
Infiltrator = Shuriken
Engineer = Shuriken
Sentinel = Not too sure

Sentinel=Tempest if you want a CQC build with a shotgun. You can spray shields with the Tempest then bring up Tech Armor and shotgun everyone up close.

[Samurai_Wahoo]

@ Spornicus

I have played through with the Sentinel 6x and I have tried everything. Honestly, I do not know which I like better.

[Spornicus]

I don't really have much experience with either as a Sentinel because I always get the locust as a mid range weapon, but I just thought the ammo capacity and damage of the Tempest would better suit the CQC Sentinel.

[Samurai_Wahoo]

If I had to pick one gun between Tempest and Shuriken, it would have to be Shuriken by a nose hair. The Sentinel is by far the versatile class in the game, IMO and the Shuriken can do more in versatility. Cast or Rush, Shuriken does well with both aspects. I tend to use the Viper on my Sentinel because it can chew up some armor and it is a great support rifle when I go into Casting mode.

[Bozorgmehr]

JaegerBane wrote...

I don't really understand why ignoring things like reloads provides a more accurate picture of how things work in 'actual combat' - one of the major disadvantages of the Shuriken is it's very small clip, and one of the major advantages of the Tempest is it's very large clip, so i can't help feel that the comparison itself becomes skewed if the arbitrary stance is taken to ignore reloads.

I think Tony's point is that gameplay has a huge impact on the usefulness of weapons (and powers). A weapon that inflicts more damage per shot, has a bigger clip, higher damage per clip, higher DoT etc isn't telling the whole story. The effect it has on actual gameplay is what really matters.

The Widow is a better SR than the Mantis, but that's irrelevant if you can OSOK enemies with the both of em. The Widow is only a better SR - in terms of gameplay - if it can OSOK enemies the Mantis cannot (and the higher DPS is also nice against enemies who cannot be OSOK ed). The same is true for powers; when Warp can one-shot armor/barrier it's 'finished' > all additional damage has little to no effect on gameplay, you always have the use Warp to remove defenses (1x) and to kill (2x or 1 Warpbomb) regardless if you have an additional 20-50% power damage.

The Shuriken's clipsize doesn't matter as long as you can kill one enemy without having to reload. The Tempest's larger clipsize has no effect on gameplay b/c it cannot kill more than one enemy per clip. You still need to reload the Tempest after a kill or it will run out of ammo on the next enemy. Only when the Tempest can kill more than one enemy per clip it will have an advantage over the Shuriken.

A good 'flow' or 'rhythm' in combat is also very useful; I always try to time using powers with reloads - it will cancel reload animation (higher weapon damage output) and 'knowing' you can empty a Carnifex clip into a Scion in roughly the same amount of time it takes for Singularity to cooldown (and/or hold Scion in place), for example, results in not having to pay attention to cooldowns at all. You know you can empty a clip before you can use Sing again; shoot > reload > cancel reload by casting Singularity > shoot > rinse and repeat.