32 réponses à ce sujet

[NICKjnp]

I prefer the tempest....it works good as a nice shotty alternative when playing an AR adept.

[JaegerBane]

Bozorgmehr wrote...
The Shuriken's clipsize doesn't matter as long as you can kill one enemy without having to reload. The Tempest's larger clipsize has no effect on gameplay b/c it cannot kill more than one enemy per clip. You still need to reload the Tempest after a kill or it will run out of ammo on the next enemy. Only when the Tempest can kill more than one enemy per clip it will have an advantage over the Shuriken.

The debate between Tony and I was mainly to do with the shield-busting properties of each SMG, not how fast it kills. You may not be able to kill several opponents with one clip of Tempest ammo, but you definitely can knock shields down one after the other so long as you're sensible with your shots (particularly on basic geth etc). Of course most power classes don't bother with guns when defences are down

That was mainly what I was getting at regarding ignoring reloads. It just didn't seem to be an impartial way of comparing them (my entire mention was mostly to do with cruz1ale's video).

[JaegerBane]

Tony Gunslinger wrote...
You can completely strip and freeze an Elite merc with the Shuriken under Cloak much faster than the Tempest, and regular goons are easy to kill without ammo powers alone, though Incendiary/Cryo always helps. And you can definitely kill elites if all your shots land on his head. That's all under 1 clip of the Shuriken. In that time, the Tempest's damage is still slower, enough of a difference that the merc can shoot one last shot before being frozen. And to deal more damage than the Shuriken, I have to shoot longer where melee's 125 damage x2 from being frozen can get the job done, and that time, my cooldown is already finished so I could use my power (Incinerate/Cloak/FB/NS/ED) if I wanted to. I'll admit, the margin for error is tighter, but the max output of damage is greater than when using the Tempest.

I think I should have admitted up front that I was primarily talking about the two SMG's shield-busting capabilities (I primarily use my SMG for that very purpose, Throw and Reave are what I use against health ). I mean, whether you use Cryo, Disruptor, Warp or whatever ammo will largely depend on your strategy and class, which is kind of outside what I was discussing.

If that shield/barrier is higher then those enemies are most likely to be Harbinger/Praetorians/YMIRs/Geth Primes with multiple defenses, no way am I going to up up against them with my little gun. But, you are able to Cloak + Shuriken and most if not all of its 24 shots will be under cloak, and by the time the YMIR notices you, you are already back under cover to reload. The Tempest takes 3ish secs, and you'll expose yourself longer and take damage, so unless you're willing to take a hit, most likely you'll go back into cover before the clip ends and deal around the same damage as the Shuriken to begin with. There are case where you can deal more damage, such as using squadmates' drone or using them as bait to get its attention off your back.

When I mentioned multiple squads I was pointing out that if the sum total of shields you needed to deal with in a given situation exceeded a single Shuriken Clip's ability to wipe out, whether that be because you're up against one big target or multiple shields, then reloads inevitably *do* become part of the equation. As I mentioned above, I was talking mostly about the guns themselves rather than the class that's using them (cloak is obviously only relevant if you're discussing the infiltrator's use of SMGs).

I have used the Tempest in that fight, and the expanding reticule of the Tempest prevented me from dealing as much damage as the Shuriken, resulting in more geths coming close to me. Also in that particular moment, I didn't use flashbang at all even tho I had a free cooldown to spend. Had I used it earlier rather than later, the Hunter would have staggered, and I would have taken less damage.

I don't really understand what this is about - I was referring to that test you did on the orbs. Not really sure how flashbang would have helped, there.

Hell yes. Shuriken is really a machine pistol but it's stuck in the SMG category because of function. I have no idea how they'll incorporate sidearms in ME3. I wish you can holster pistols on the right hip and SMGs on the left waist (and make Shep hold SMGs the right way, dammit).

Given that SMGs are referred to as 'AutoPistols' in the .ini, I'd guess Shep is holding them the right way

I ended up modding heavy pistols out of my Adept. They just didn't do enough for me to bother with.

[Tony Gunslinger]

JaegerBane wrote...

When I mentioned multiple squads I was pointing out that if the sum total of shields you needed to deal with in a given situation exceeded a single Shuriken Clip's ability to wipe out, whether that be because you're up against one big target or multiple shields, then reloads inevitably *do* become part of the equation. As I mentioned above, I was talking mostly about the guns themselves rather than the class that's using them (cloak is obviously only relevant if you're discussing the infiltrator's use of SMGs).

Yes, performance-wise, if you can't take out shields under 1 clip of the Shuriken, then the Tempest will deal more damage.

I use the Tempest with my Engineer often, especially when I know I'll be facing big enemies like YMIRs. The time your drone can last against it usually comes out about the same you can completely empty the Tempest's clip. If I cast Overload against them after drone, the will die too soon and I'll be stuck with the cooldown. (BTW this why I don't use Overload with my Engineer anymore because it's easy to strip shields against mercs with SMGs, the tougher mercs can't be taken down with 1 Overload, so those guys and the big enemies are better off being distracted with drone and shoot down their shields). And for my Sentinel and Vanguard, they can survive for 3.25s of shooting and able to cast TA or Charge without reloading.

So like Boz mentioned, I often use the Shuriken because it gets you in a good rhythm with power + shoot + reload + repeat, and it handles the majority of situations pretty smoothly for me. The Tempest can do better under certain circumstances and different builds, however.

I don't really understand what this is about - I was referring to that test you did on the orbs. Not really sure how flashbang would have helped, there.

Ooops.. sorry, I was reading something else and I derped , I thought you were talking about the Heretic Station vid before.

[JaegerBane]

Tony Gunslinger wrote...
Yes, performance-wise, if you can't take out shields under 1 clip of the Shuriken, then the Tempest will deal more damage.

I use the Tempest with my Engineer often, especially when I know I'll be facing big enemies like YMIRs. The time your drone can last against it usually comes out about the same you can completely empty the Tempest's clip. If I cast Overload against them after drone, the will die too soon and I'll be stuck with the cooldown. (BTW this why I don't use Overload with my Engineer anymore because it's easy to strip shields against mercs with SMGs, the tougher mercs can't be taken down with 1 Overload, so those guys and the big enemies are better off being distracted with drone and shoot down their shields). And for my Sentinel and Vanguard, they can survive for 3.25s of shooting and able to cast TA or Charge without reloading.

So like Boz mentioned, I often use the Shuriken because it gets you in a good rhythm with power + shoot + reload + repeat, and it handles the majority of situations pretty smoothly for me. The Tempest can do better under certain circumstances and different builds, however.

I see. I have to admit that I've never honestly felt like I was getting a rhythm with SMGs except the Locust, as they're too inaccurate for me to reliably knock down x amount of defences in a given amount of time for me to repeatedly be ready for using a power etc.

I think I'll try that for this current Adept playthrough I'm making. Although I'm still in the early game and thanks to a neverending stream of interruptions from my girlfriend and my job, it's taken me nearly three weeks to start the game and collect Mordin... I'm having to replay Garrus' recuritment mission because I'm so out of practice that I basically gave up in disgust

Modifié par JaegerBane, 30 mai 2011 - 01:30 .

[Tony Gunslinger]

[quote]JaegerBane wrote...

I see. I have to admit that I've never honestly felt like I was getting a rhythm with SMGs except the Locust, as they're too inaccurate for me to reliably knock down x amount of defences in a given amount of time for me to repeatedly be ready for using a power etc. {/quote]

Yeah, the Locust operates the same way as the Shuriken, except it's better for long range than short range, and it's automatic so is it's easier to operate. Shuriken can also make you tired after while. That's why I think the SMGs are more or less balanced, none of them have a real clear advantage, just play prefences.

[quote]
I think I'll try that for this current Adept playthrough I'm making. Although I'm still in the early game and thanks to a neverending stream of interruptions from my girlfriend and my job, it's taken me nearly three weeks to start the game and collect Mordin... I'm having to replay Garrus' recuritment mission because I'm so out of practice that I basically gave up in disgust

[/quote]

Jeez... don't mention the GF thing ...

[Locutus_of_BORG]

^format fial, lol

[PsyrenY]

Samurai_Wahoo wrote...

Depends on the class
Adept = Tempest
Vanguard = Tempest
Infiltrator = Shuriken
Engineer = Shuriken
Sentinel = Not too sure

For Infiltrator and Sentinel, it depends on the build.

CQC Infiltrator (aka Shotgun Infiltrator) will want either the Tempest or Shuriken. You'll use the former when you're conserving GPS rounds, by stealthing in and unloading a clip into the enemy's head. Shuriken is more useful when you like to mix in some sniping with your sneaking up close. So it becomes a playstyle question.

CQC Sentinel (aka Assault Sentinel) will want the Tempest because they will frequently be in close range anyway, and almost never sniping. As with the above, Tempest is used as a Shotgun conserver/replacement - and is especially useful when your shield knocks down enemies to pump a clip into their heads before they can move.

Widow Infiltrator will want the Tempest. Between the Phalanx/Carnifex and Widow, you have long range pretty much dealt with, so it falls to your SMG to take care of medium and close range. The Shuriken is comparable for mid-range but cannot hold a candle to the Tempest up close.

Caster Sentinel wants the Locust. You'll be avoiding melee like the plague - using your Viper and Locust to take enemies down from max range (and aim your powers accurately), keeping your squadmates between the enemy and you, and using your armor to move from cover to cover to maintain distance. Tempest is also useful for those oh crap moments but you really shouldn't be in melee that often (and when you are, I find Reave/Overload + running much better than emptying a clip.)