252 réponses à ce sujet

[AAHook2]

the_one_54321 wrote...

AAHook2 wrote...
How about Dragon Age 2?

After hearing about all the changes, I did not purchase or play DAII.

You may be the wiser for it.

[Lethys1]

Sidney wrote...

Lethys1 wrote...

More choice?  The only choice I had was to play the game or to not play the game.  Otherwise, the game is exactly the same no matter what.

It isn't. There are a lot of smaller choices along the way but DA2 doesn't slap you in the face with "BIG CHOICE" like DAO did. They said it was a more personal game and it is. The choices aren't "Who rules dwarven kingdom" type things. I think Bioware overestimated people's ability to handle a smaller story and not the Michael Bay of stories.

No, sir.  They pretend to give us Michael Bay-like choices, such as "who do you support, mages or templars?" but in reality they both lead you to the same end bosses no matter what.  Besides, the flaw in your logic is that the game is being touted as playing the "Champion," not just another mercenary with an opinion.  I always said I would be fine with playing a character who wasn't even important, as long as there is combat and some decision making to be had.  This was not that game, nor did it intend to be.


Had they given us small choices that actually affected plot (even in small ways), I would have said, alright.  But this game fakes it.  They pretend to give us large choices.  And some of em, you don't even make knowingly.  Bringing Anders along in the Deep Roads with Bethany or Carver saves them?  Choose a class means choose which sibling dies?  Great choices, Bioware.


Hawke might as well have been blind and deaf and he would have had the same affect on the plot as he did.  That's not to say Anders can't be independent, but that IS to say the level of stupidity that some of the NPC's exhibit is startling and makes me think that the writers haven't had much real world experience.

[AlanC9]

Sidney wrote...
Well I hated talking to people and not having anything new to say, that was illusion breaking for me. Worse was if I skipped talking to someone after a node "unlocked" and all the conversations could spill out in one chit chat session. I went from 0 to best friends with Morrigan that way by accident by first playthrough.

Yeah, that's pretty much how I see it. Deciding how fast to pace my PCs realtionships has nothign to do with playing my character, but a design like DAO's practically mandates it.

Time, across all things, is still the bane of the non-linear game because it never feels right. Doesn't matter rather it is the fake timers on conversations, "OMG we have to hurry quests" that you can do at anytime or the "OMFG we have to save the world but let me explore this forest/planet/lost tomb first" thing. I know people worship at the altar of the non-linear and in sandbox games w/o much real plot (Bethesda games) that can work but the Bioware games really force you to suspend disbelief in a huge epic way because time doesn't work - and I suspect this is why you don't have real day/night cycles or actual time passing in them.

Well, Bio could tie progression in relationships and such to progress though the game rather than time per se. I think that's how KotOR worked. Assuming Bio still want to handle time the same way they're doing now, but most RPG fans are too weak to handle a real clock.

[TaHol]

I could take all kinds of changes in DA2, some were even good, but lack of development time made the game whatever it is now. It lacks care. It lacks love. It lacks those little details that tell that everything was made with passion, and that devs wanted us to have a perfect experience. But I try to remember things I liked and disliked:

- Dialogue wheel was good.
- Combat animations did not bother me.
- Inventory and how crafting was changed
Seems I can't remember anyting else I really liked.

Dislike:
- Tactics UI
- Enemy waves
- Lifeless Kirkwall
- Nothing changing in 10 years
- Voiced protagonist (to my surprise I did not like it)
- Exploding bodies
- Shallow plot
- Talent and skill system. I hated it. Like you had to get this skill to get that skill, and you had to have this spell activated to use that spell but you can't cast offencive spells now. Terrible!
- Re-used areas. Pure laziness and tells that devs underestimate us. The thougth we would not care.
- How elves looked, MY GOD! What were they thinking?

I don't mind changes. I accept them, and I think devs just can't keep doing same game again and again, it would be artistic suicide. But they changed things that did not need to be changed, and they broke things that were good, and they took away too much things I liked in DA:O.

One thing I'm grateful though: they did not add QTE:s. Those made me quit The Witcer 2 after few hours, and I'm not touching it ever again.

[AAHook2]

AlanC9 wrote...

Sidney wrote...
Well I hated talking to people and not having anything new to say, that was illusion breaking for me. Worse was if I skipped talking to someone after a node "unlocked" and all the conversations could spill out in one chit chat session. I went from 0 to best friends with Morrigan that way by accident by first playthrough.

Yeah, that's pretty much how I see it. Deciding how fast to pace my PCs realtionships has nothign to do with playing my character, but a design like DAO's practically mandates it.

Time, across all things, is still the bane of the non-linear game because it never feels right. Doesn't matter rather it is the fake timers on conversations, "OMG we have to hurry quests" that you can do at anytime or the "OMFG we have to save the world but let me explore this forest/planet/lost tomb first" thing. I know people worship at the altar of the non-linear and in sandbox games w/o much real plot (Bethesda games) that can work but the Bioware games really force you to suspend disbelief in a huge epic way because time doesn't work - and I suspect this is why you don't have real day/night cycles or actual time passing in them.

Well, Bio could tie progression in relationships and such to progress though the game rather than time per se. I think that's how KotOR worked. Assuming Bio still want to handle time the same way they're doing now, but most RPG fans are too weak to handle a real clock.

In Fable 2 there was a point of real enjoyment in your relationships in the beginning when you first start a family. Then at some point there is a big time gap away from your family, but the AI doesn't react realistically to it, and bugs galore popped up.
Still a lot of that initial feeling in the relationship is very poignant and touching. The failing in that system comes when you realize that your spouse really doesn't change at all over any period of time and after they marry you their only real drives are sex, gifts and whether you're being monogamous.
In that game I always really wanted the spouse to be more alive, more sensitive to change. Sure they'd notice when you've done something significant like a change of title, but they wouldn't change their clothes or their general behavior...they were pretty static.

What was interesting about Origins was that there were those milestones, those points when your relatioship with a Companion or Love Interest would shift or run its course in some cases. Yet again, the passage of time is unmarked for the most part. In Fable a season may change, but your relationship stays basically the same. In Origins, the relationship may shift, but the season doesn't really change. Time feels static.

*Spoiler Origins/ Witch Hunt*

The only time a relationship really felt like time and incident fell into effect was if you chose to love Morrigan and decided to leave with her to raise your child.

I think there's a place for a game in this genre where a relatioship feels natural and time is a living entity that effects all relationships in a meaningful way. It need not be on the level of a tota simulation of time, but it should feel like a natural part of a narrative of your actions in the game.

It's something to think about, at least.

[the_one_54321]

AAHook2 wrote...
The only time a relationship really felt like time and incident fell into effect was if you chose to love Morrigan and decided to leave with her to raise your child.

Says you! Witch Hunt almost became the first DLC I ever bought. Until I read about how the ending worked out. What a complete gyp. The entire interaction is utterly meaningless in that the writers refused to tell anything at all except "go with her or not." After the "All Morrigan Questions Answered!!!" line, this was just infuriating.

[AlanC9]

AAHook2 wrote...
What was interesting about Origins was that there were those milestones, those points when your relatioship with a Companion or Love Interest would shift or run its course in some cases. Yet again, the passage of time is unmarked for the most part. In Fable a season may change, but your relationship stays basically the same. In Origins, the relationship may shift, but the season doesn't really change. Time feels static. 

Well, I can understand not shifting seasons in DAO. The Blight doesn't seem that threatening as it is, and having it take many months would make things worse.

The DAO relationships were OK as far as implementing different stages, though not great. My problem with the DAO implementation is that the timing of the relationship is 100% controlled by the player. I'd prefer to have the timing governed by how far you've progressed through the main plot. But that would make the problem of companions having nothing to say even worse..... which ends up leading me back to the DA2 implementation.

[the_one_54321]

Is it safe to say that the common theme here that people want to see a world that has its own clock and reacts to your actions in a time appropriate manner?

[n2nw]

AlanC9 wrote...
The DAO relationships were OK as far as implementing different stages, though not great. My problem with the DAO implementation is that the timing of the relationship is 100% controlled by the player. I'd prefer to have the timing governed by how far you've progressed through the main plot. But that would make the problem of companions having nothing to say even worse..... which ends up leading me back to the DA2 implementation.

This.  Sort of.  I would like not to be able to romance someone in 5 minutes.  However, there *were* certain things in DAO that would only occur at certain times that could bring about a change in the relationship, a trend they continued in DA2, but made even more noticeable by the separation of each Act. 

It would be nice to only get to a certain point in a relationship in each act, but still be able to converse and continue in that relationship.  That would give more of a feeling of actually growing a relationship instead of just immediately having one or taking giant steps ever so often.  I know that would mean more dialgue, but extra dialogue is always a plus IMHO.  And even those dialogues could be triggered by certain points in each act so you can't just trigger them all at once and be done for the rest of the act.  I would like this for both romances and friendships.  You spend the majority of your time with your companions, it only makes sense that you would get to know them and develop your relationships, whether postive or negative or touchy-feely.

I especially liked, in DA2, that my companions actually noticed when something bad (or good) happened to me.  It used to make me so mad in past games when your whole world would fall apart and noone noticed....or cared - especially the LI.  Some of your DA2 companions even cared enough to warn you about certain things or talk to you just to "catch up".  I liked that and I would love to see more of it.  But, as previously pointed out, I'm a dialogue junkie.  I like conversing with my companions and I love to hear the inter-party banter.

[the_one_54321]

n2nw wrote...
It used to make me so mad in past games when your whole world would fall apart and no one noticed....or cared - especially the LI.

Examples?

[n2nw]

the_one_54321 wrote...

n2nw wrote...
It used to make me so mad in past games when your whole world would fall apart and no one noticed....or cared - especially the LI.

Examples?

DAO - pick an origin and then when you revisit it or it revisits you (such as in the Dalish Elf origin)....not a lotta love going on anywhere (except for the Alienage Elf origin revisit perhaps, but it was *really* lacking and one response was rather callous)
NWN2 - you lose your whole town....no one cares.
NWN2 Mask of the Betrayer - you lose a piece of your heart and revisit the scene and collapse....no one cares.
BG - you find out you're a Bhaalspawn....no one cares, though they do decide to watch you like a hawk (thanks, Jahiera).
BG2 - you're experimented on and tortured...but it's 'oh, poor little Imoen!'
BG2 - you change into the Slayer....no one cares, though they become afraid of you (including your LI, if it's Anomen)

This list is not comprehensive, just off the top of my head.  And though it's been a while since I've played KOTOR and NWN, I'm sure I could find something with them, too (especially in Hordes where the male LI busts your freaking arse....but I can't find a lot of fault with Valen - he's possibly my fav LI EVER).

Your friends, and especially your LI, should care when really bad things happen to you.

[the_one_54321]

Maybe a negative response isn't exactly the same as no response?

[n2nw]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Maybe a negative response isn't exactly the same as no response?

They weren't really responses, though.  When something that big happens (the Bhaalspawn, the Slayer), you expect people to have opinions, not just small reactions.  The Bhaalspawn/Slayer reactions were the only ones and they weren't very notable.  Those were big changes and some of those companions had big opinions and personalities.  I expected more.

And in the other cases, there was absolutely nothing at all.

[the_one_54321]

I see what you mean.

[AAHook2]

the_one_54321 wrote...

AAHook2 wrote...
The only time a relationship really felt like time and incident fell into effect was if you chose to love Morrigan and decided to leave with her to raise your child.

Says you! Witch Hunt almost became the first DLC I ever bought. Until I read about how the ending worked out. What a complete gyp. The entire interaction is utterly meaningless in that the writers refused to tell anything at all except "go with her or not." After the "All Morrigan Questions Answered!!!" line, this was just infuriating.

So you didn't seek the entire Morrigan saga to be played out...
Then you really don't know anything about it then if you didn't actually go through it...

It gets a little disturbing how many people write something off based on spoilers or reading about it rather than actually having the chops to comment on it by playing the game.

If you didn't embrace the concept of your character falling in love with Morrigan, didn't participate in the passing dialogue over time in the DLC, deciding that you wanted to see her again, it really wouldn't matter to you.

My favorite Warden kept Morrigan's Ring on the entire time. Through the end of Origins, through Awakenings, through Golems and all the way through till he walked through the door with her to see their son.

Call me sentimental, but it was a pretty touching journey.

[AAHook2]

AlanC9 wrote...

AAHook2 wrote...
What was interesting about Origins was that there were those milestones, those points when your relatioship with a Companion or Love Interest would shift or run its course in some cases. Yet again, the passage of time is unmarked for the most part. In Fable a season may change, but your relationship stays basically the same. In Origins, the relationship may shift, but the season doesn't really change. Time feels static. 

Well, I can understand not shifting seasons in DAO. The Blight doesn't seem that threatening as it is, and having it take many months would make things worse.

The DAO relationships were OK as far as implementing different stages, though not great. My problem with the DAO implementation is that the timing of the relationship is 100% controlled by the player. I'd prefer to have the timing governed by how far you've progressed through the main plot. But that would make the problem of companions having nothing to say even worse..... which ends up leading me back to the DA2 implementation.

I wouldn't say that the relationships are totally controlled by the player. There were milestones you had to achieve before certain stages would be available in some relationships. Once they became available it was up to you to decide where and how far you wanted to go.

For me, I loved the challenge of cycling through a Morrigan romance, picking up a slow boil Leliana romance and having both love endings by the end. It took a deft touch to manage. Morrigan ended up leaving in the end anyway so supposedly my Warden was well set up with Leliana, and Leliana seemed to accept that there were lingering deep feelings of attachemnt for Morrigan.
The only missing bit is how the relationship between the Warden and Leliana ended.

On the point about seasons changing or a mark of time passing...it doesn't seem right that the entire span of the Blight lasted only a few weeks or so. That's what I mean. To travel up and down Ferelden back and forth more often than not, it must have taken some months at least. There's no mark of that time though except for certain things like Lothering being destroyed and the Landsmeet being called.
It may have helped the sense of immersion to set a consequence to the order one played out areas and how many miles one had travelled in between. Could have easily been represented by the news of certain Arling's being overrun and the like.
It all worked well enough though. The gripe is minor.

[the_one_54321]

AAHook2 wrote...
So you didn't seek the entire Morrigan saga to be played out...
Then you really don't know anything about it then if you didn't actually go through it...

Actually, I experienced everything with Morrigan in it via youtube. All her dialog was posted in vids within a day. And all of it was incredibly disappointing.

[abaris]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Is it safe to say that the common theme here that people want to see a world that has its own clock and reacts to your actions in a time appropriate manner?

Just to give you some examples.

There are much older games doing exactly that. In Morrowind for example guards either helped you or attacked you when you fought in the streets. Breakins and burglaries were noticed and fined when they saw you. Weather kept changing and there was an active day/night cycle. Of course, all that wasn't very sophisticated, it was back in 2002 after all.

But one can say, there should be more along the lines of atmosphere than people standing around like cattle whilst you're busy chopping heads and throwing fireballs. And to top it off, they're invulnerable, so you don't even have to take care where to aim your shots, swing your sword or throw your spells. It simply doesn't matter.

That's not 2011 we're talking about. That's a very simplistic hack and slash adventure with never changing backdrops. Not a reacting world that creates the illusion of being alive.

I don't want to mention conteporary games creating exactly that kind of atmosphere, since it usually and understandably doesn't sit well with the mods, but there are quite a lot that let DAII pale in comparison.

[AAHook2]

the_one_54321 wrote...

AAHook2 wrote...
So you didn't seek the entire Morrigan saga to be played out...
Then you really don't know anything about it then if you didn't actually go through it...

Actually, I experienced everything with Morrigan in it via youtube. All her dialog was posted in vids within a day. And all of it was incredibly disappointing.

I bet. Especially on YouTube.
Look, it makes a difference if you play through. You may not see it that way. Personally I think it robs you of credibility if you don't actually PLAY a game and try to have an opinion about the content.
There's something about seeing YOUR character go through all of the trials and finally getting to the end, and speaking with her. No spoilers to predetermine what your response is.

I think you really cheated yourself by watching it on Youtube.

[Aesieru]

Yup, should have watched it on Veoh.

[AAHook2]

abaris wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

Is it safe to say that the common theme here that people want to see a world that has its own clock and reacts to your actions in a time appropriate manner?

Just to give you some examples.

There are much older games doing exactly that. In Morrowind for example guards either helped you or attacked you when you fought in the streets. Breakins and burglaries were noticed and fined when they saw you. Weather kept changing and there was an active day/night cycle. Of course, all that wasn't very sophisticated, it was back in 2002 after all.

But one can say, there should be more along the lines of atmosphere than people standing around like cattle whilst you're busy chopping heads and throwing fireballs. And to top it off, they're invulnerable, so you don't even have to take care where to aim your shots, swing your sword or throw your spells. It simply doesn't matter.

That's not 2011 we're talking about. That's a very simplistic hack and slash adventure with never changing backdrops. Not a reacting world that creates the illusion of being alive.

I don't want to mention conteporary games creating exactly that kind of atmosphere, since it usually and understandably doesn't sit well with the mods, but there are quite a lot that let DAII pale in comparison.

I know. Even in Fable, you could toggle on the lethality so that you have to actually be careful about where you swing a blade or fire a shot.
I remember taking out a bunch of bandits near my house in Fable 2, and the guards came by to help. After things were taken care of, I was scolded for blowing apart my own picket fence housing my flower garden. Jerks, I thought. I take out 6 bandits and this is how you speak to me. About vandalism! It was still pleasing though for them to notice.

[In Exile]

AAHook2 wrote...
I wouldn't say that the relationships are totally controlled by the player. There were milestones you had to achieve before certain stages would be available in some relationships. Once they became available it was up to you to decide where and how far you wanted to go. 

The milestones were all tied to approval, though, which for some characters you could max out just by maxing out their default dialogue tree.

On the point about seasons changing or a mark of time passing...it doesn't seem right that the entire span of the Blight lasted only a few weeks or so. That's what I mean. To travel up and down Ferelden back and forth more often than not, it must have taken some months at least. There's no mark of that time though except for certain things like Lothering being destroyed and the Landsmeet being called.
It may have helped the sense of immersion to set a consequence to the order one played out areas and how many miles one had travelled in between. Could have easily been represented by the news of certain Arling's being overrun and the like.
It all worked well enough though. The gripe is minor.

The Blight was supposed to last 6 mo. - 1 year. I think. It's just that DA:O gives you no sense of scale. I honestly thought it lasted weeks too.

[SicoWolf-]

What is "deeper RPG mechanics?" That's one point that is very specifically on my mind.

Making a choice through diaologue or actions qualifies as an "RPG mechanic". The Witcher 2 is an excellent example of these mechanics becoming deeper and more enriching. Your choices throughout TW2 affect how the rest of the game plays out.

[the_one_54321]

AAHook2 wrote...
I think you really cheated yourself by watching it on Youtube.

I think I saved myself $7 on something I would have hated anyway. I'm far from being the only one that thought the whole Morrigan tagline was false advertising.

[Brockololly]

the_one_54321 wrote...

AAHook2 wrote...
I think you really cheated yourself by watching it on Youtube.

I think I saved myself $7 on something I would have hated anyway. I'm far from being the only one that thought the whole Morrigan tagline was false advertising.

I didn't mind WH as a temporary resolution to the Morrigan/Warden story. But the advertising was straight up abominable.

Stuff like this?




Yeah...I don't think WH answered any questions at all.

The only way it matters in the future would be if the import matters, which going off of how messed up the DAO/DAA imports are into DA2 and the probablity the Warden is done, WH probably doesn't even matter in the story regard of having the Warden go through the Eluvian.