37 réponses à ce sujet

[Beerfish]

It's a delicate situation and balancing act regarding being proactive because the hero of the game (whoever is playing the game) is always going to win and will always be able to prevent whatever they want to prevent. (We also have reload). The developers will have to walk a fine line to let the player be more reactive and not waste all sorts of content that goes out the window because the hero gets there in time. I can see there ending up being all sorts of illusions that the hero makes smart proactive moves and the player may still be lead around and make them feel better about themselves.

[LobselVith8]

BigEvil wrote...

You want an old man to shoot Hawke at the end of the game?

You seem to be changing your arguement now. You've spent several posts saying that Hawke isn't proactive, Evelina claims Hawke isn't helping (despite the fact Hawke can help Evelina and through her the children she looks after), and that the children in Darktown show Hawke isn't proactive.

You seem to be ignoring my argument entirely and trying to twist this into a small portion of my argument. I made a suggestion that, instead of doing absolutely nothing for three years until people hire him, he could try to make a difference in the community. You've gone on and on about this, but it doesn't really change the fact that Hawke is doing nothing. Yes, there could be problems with it, but I have every right to address that Hawke isn't using his wealth, his status, or his connection to the Viscount to change Kirkwall for the better.

Yes, you mentioned you can press a button and Hawke can do something, but that ignores the fact that Hawke isn't doing anything for the people despite being wealthy and having a political connection. Giving money to the store for the Ferelden refugees when it doesn't change anything in the storyline but provide XP and giving money to Evelina when it doesn't change anything for the multitude of men, women, and children who are destitute doesn't tell me that Hawke is proactive. I provided merely two examples (Darktown and the Alienage) where Hawke does nothing, and we see that when he's unwilling to get involved in finding out who helped his mother's murderer and in not addressing Meredith as Kirkwall's dictator for three years.

BigEvil wrote...

But that's not the case. Hawke can be proactive, Hawke can help Evelina by giving her money and since she is collecting money to help the children Hawke does help the children in this case. Just because the game doesn't allow any further steps or resolve the help doesn't mean Hawke cannot or does not give it. It is a problem that it isn't resolved though.

Hawke is a wealthly Human Noble who gave some loose change to one single person; that doesn't change the fact that he's not using his wealth or his status to do something about the plight of his own people.

BigEvil wrote...

Now you want to say that you're addressing the myriad of people in Darktown and not just Evelina who you have been harping on about since almost the beginning.

You'll have to excuse me if your examples of Hawke giving loose change to one single person and going back to his mansion doesn't move me to agree with you.

BigEvil wrote...

Ok, fine. Hawke can't be proactive in that area because we are not able to give money to every random person in Darktown. There are no quests related to this.

In other words, Hawke's too busy wearing silk robes and looking in front of the fireplace to give a damn about his own people? Excuse me for pointing out that Hawke does pretty much nothing except possibly giving some loose change to a store and one, single person in Darktown. It's not like he's a Human Noble with a fortune from the Deep Roads or a person valued by the Viscount who can try to do something besides killing people...

BigEvil wrote...

There are no dialogue options related to this, mostly because most of the people in Darktown only say repeated lines when you click on them. You can't have an actual conversation with most of them. This is a flaw of the game, I admit that. But it's a flaw of Origins as well, and most other RPGs. I'm struggling to think of any cRPG that I've played where the poor people or refugees can be helped by the player and are in a better situation at the end of the game or resolution of the quest chain. It probably isn't done because it seems too unrealistic and unfeasable.

I'm struggling to think of why you've dedicated so much time to examining a small portion of my argument and essentially ignoring that Hawke is reactive instead of proactive. For the most part, he's a reactive character. The Champion of Kirkwall doesn't do any investigation to find out who helped Quentin and doesn't do anything about Meredith seizing power for three years.

BigEvil wrote...

All in all, what would you prefer? An addition to the game which kept track of what money you give Evelina which changes things in Act III (she says something different acknowledging your help, the children are in Lowtown and some of them have jobs to support them all (which would mean you'd have to talk to Walter and Cricket in Lowtown instead of Darktown during On the Loose) and some NPCs mentioning you helped the kids).

I've prefer if he was a proactive character who actually had an impact on the society he lived in, as the podcast and the advertisements said he would. We were told that Hawke's story was one where we would: "Embark upon an all-new adventure that takes place across an entire decade and shapes itself around every decision you make." and that the protagonist would "Determine your rise to power from a destitute refugee to the revered champion of the land." Instead, we were given a linear progression where the two endings are virtually identical to one another, and choices didn't really matter.

BigEvil wrote...

Or being proactive in helping the majority of the people in Darktown. Something which would require at minimum several quests and all the dialogue, journal entries, rewards, etc to go with them, including dialogue in a following act commenting on these quests and the outcome of them. This is not something I can see being in a DLC, maybe an expansion. And even then, would a lot of players want to spend a lot of time on such a series of quests when the only real outcome for the player would be exp and people saying positive things about it. There would be no way to do these quests and have more money at the end of them.

I think this is one area where Hawke should get a pass on not being proactive. And this post ended up a lot longer than I initially planned.

I'm hoping the upcoming DLC will allow Hawke to be a proactive character who demonstrates some intelligence.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 28 mai 2011 - 03:23 .

[LobselVith8]

RangerSG wrote...

1) I don't take the word of Evelina to mean anything. My Hawke's always donated to the Ferelden Refugees at the box, anonymously. She doesn't know what you do or don't do with your money. And it's a proven economic reality that if you simply hand everyone money, they will, by and large, squander it. So by providing jobs and donating to the truly needy, he's doing more than she does.

He's wealthy Human Noble who lives in a mansion, I'm only suggesting he could possibly be doing something constructive instead of absolutely nothing, which he precisely what he does when Bethany is taken by Cullen to the Gallows. Why doesn't Hawke use Anders' underground railroad to get Bethany out of the Gallows when he's seen Karl being made tranquil illegally and seen Alrik threaten a child mage (as Bethany addressed her in her letter) with an illegal tranquility and rape?

RangerSG wrote...

2) The murder investigation is the instance that really gets me. You 'saw' a guy run away at the beginning. You know there's a loose end, and tell Emeric as much. Avelline could have BEEN there with you, even. But still she doesn't believe it's legitimate? I like her as a character, but she's not a good investigator (and this isn't the only time she falls short in that regard).

Hawke isn't, either. He can find a letter addressing that Quentin had an accomplice who gave him books that's signed "O," and he never bothers to investigate it?

[Zeevico]

O is a letter of the alphabet. Exactly what does Hawke have to go on? Should he knock down the door of every Oswald, O'Flannery and Ontologist in the continent?

Modifié par Zeevico, 28 mai 2011 - 04:22 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

For instance, Lair of the Shadow Broker was an excellent DLC for Mass Effect 2. It allowed you to work with Liara and ultimately gain her as a companion. It included some great dialogue, good action and fights, a driving/flying mini game, and an answer to the identity of the illusive Shadow Broker.

Not to trash talk one of the better DLCs ME2 has, but that was a complete and utter asspull. Sure, it introduces a new race for ME3, but it's an asspull nontheless.

Also, did anyone not instantly know it was Orsino who signed that letter?

[In Exile]

Hawke can hire Ferldens at good rates for the mine. The deathtrap mine. Where there dragons. Sucess?

[TEWR]

Zeevico wrote...

O is a letter of the alphabet. Exactly what does Hawke have to go on? Should he knock down the door of every Oswald, O'Flannery and Ontologist in the continent?

Exactly. While Hawke should've investigated both before and after All That Remains, he doesn't have much to go on as to who the accomplice was.

A letter signed by O could be anyone from the Kirkwall Circle. It could even be a Templar.

People mix what they know with what Hawke knows. Hawke hasn't met Orsino or even heard his name mentioned once prior to ATR, so he didn't have much to go on. And even when he does meet him in DotQ, that isn't exactly the issue that's currently on his mind. The Qunari conquering the city take that prize.

He can suspect Orsino was involved, but he doesn't have enough to go on to openly accuse him and there was no further evidence that Orsino was involved aside from that letter.

We know that it was Orsino because he was the only person in the game with a first name that began with "O". Hawke however could've met various people whose name began with "O". Just because it isn't shown doesn't mean it didn't happen.

He's wealthy Human Noble who lives in a mansion, I'm only suggesting he could possibly be doing something constructive instead of absolutely nothing, which he precisely what he does when Bethany is taken by Cullen to the Gallows. Why doesn't Hawke use Anders' underground railroad to get Bethany out of the Gallows when he's seen Karl being made tranquil illegally and seen Alrik threaten a child mage (as Bethany addressed her in her letter) with an illegal tranquility and rape?

Well for one thing Bethany said she liked the other mages there and enjoyed teaching other mages (like Ella). For another considering her letter stating that Ser Alrik has been leering at her I would be wondering what was going through his head (I could definitely hazard a spot-on guess), but when I find out what he's actually doing to mages (like Bethany's friend Ella), I'd want to murder the b*stard.

I'd call that being proactive. You're helping Anders to get evidence of the Tranquil Solution, but neither one of them knows that Alrik is doing the RoT (I'm assuming) in that very passage or that the Tranquil Solution is on Alrik's body.

What I'm saying is that after finding out that Alrik tranquils mages illegally and rapes them, I'd want to kill the sick b*stard to protect my sister. Even though I want her free, I respect her choice to go to the Circle and the fact that she loves being among the other mages.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 28 mai 2011 - 05:00 .

[LobselVith8]

Zeevico wrote...

O is a letter of the alphabet. Exactly what does Hawke have to go on? Should he knock down the door of every Oswald, O'Flannery and Ontologist in the continent?

You mean, besides investigating the possibility that the letter could have been written by a mage, and realizing the First Enchanter of the Kirkwall Circle has a name that starts with an "O"? Hawke could have looked into it, but he apparently doesn't.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Exactly. While Hawke should've investigated both before and after All That Remains, he doesn't have much to go on as to who the accomplice was.

A letter signed by O could be anyone from the Kirkwall Circle. It could even be a Templar.

So wouldn't it be prudent to show the letter to someone who could see if the handwriting was similar to anyone they know? Shouldn't Hawke have made the attempt to investigate the possible suspects if he cared at all about what happened to Leandra?

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

People mix what they know with what Hawke knows. Hawke hasn't met Orsino or even heard his name mentioned once prior to ATR, so he didn't have much to go on. And even when he does meet him in DotQ, that isn't exactly the issue that's currently on his mind. The Qunari conquering the city take that prize.

He can suspect Orsino was involved, but he doesn't have enough to go on to openly accuse him and there was no further evidence that Orsino was involved aside from that letter.

We know that it was Orsino because he was the only person in the game with a first name that began with "O". Hawke however could've met various people whose name began with "O". Just because it isn't shown doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Hand-writing.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Well for one thing Bethany said she liked the other mages there and enjoyed teaching other mages (like Ella). For another considering her letter stating that Ser Alrik has been leering at her I would be wondering what was going through his head (I could definitely hazard a spot-on guess), but when I find out what he's actually doing to mages (like Bethany's friend Ella), I'd want to murder the b*stard. 

Hawke still lets Bethany get taken away, and he leaves her in an environment where she can get killed (since that's precisely what Meredith tries to do).

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I'd call that being proactive. You're helping Anders to get evidence of the Tranquil Solution, but neither one of them knows that Alrik is doing the RoT (I'm assuming) in that very passage or that the Tranquil Solution is on Alrik's body.

Hawke is reactive because he's responding to Anders' request, not initiating this on his own.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

What I'm saying is that after finding out that Alrik tranquils mages illegally and rapes them, I'd want to kill the sick b*stard to protect my sister. Even though I want her free, I respect her choice to go to the Circle and the fact that she loves being among the other mages.

Hawke can learn that Alain is getting raped, so why would he allow his sister to stay in this enviornment, no matter how she felt about it? I wouldn't want to be Hawke and wake up one day to find out that Bethany was raped or made tranquil, and Hawke didn't do anything despite knowing the dangers.

[BigEvil]

LobselVith8 wrote...
You seem to be ignoring my argument entirely and trying to twist this into a small portion of my argument. I made a suggestion that, instead of doing absolutely nothing for three years until people hire him, he could try to make a difference in the community. You've gone on and on about this, but it doesn't really change the fact that Hawke is doing nothing. Yes, there could be problems with it, but I have every right to address that Hawke isn't using his wealth, his status, or his connection to the Viscount to change Kirkwall for the better.

Yes, you mentioned you can press a button and Hawke can do something, but that ignores the fact that Hawke isn't doing anything for the people despite being wealthy and having a political connection. Giving money to the store for the Ferelden refugees when it doesn't change anything in the storyline but provide XP and giving money to Evelina when it doesn't change anything for the multitude of men, women, and children who are destitute doesn't tell me that Hawke is proactive. I provided merely two examples (Darktown and the Alienage) where Hawke does nothing, and we see that when he's unwilling to get involved in finding out who helped his mother's murderer and in not addressing Meredith as Kirkwall's dictator for three years.

No, I am not ignoring your argument entirely. I stated quite clearly in my first post that I agreed with your other points regarding the Alienage, investigating Quentin, etc. It was only the part of your argument about Darktown and Evelina that I had issue with. Why would I argue against points I agree with?

The simple fact is this is a small part of your argument and I'm not twisting anything. I'm arguing against one of your points, not all of them. Perhaps if you'd paid attention to that you wouldn't be ignoring the points I bring up and simply sticking to your initial point as if saying it repeatedly somehow makes it right. I think your suggestion that Hawke should be proactive is a good one, but you seem to be demanding things which cannot be supplied. You want Hawke to do things in the three year gap between Act II and Act III. Ok, fine, but since we cannot play during the time-skip the most the writers/devs would ever give us would be a journal entry stating that Hawke did such things and a few different bits of dialogue in the following act. Unless they give us a DLC which fits between the gap of Act II and Act III there's not going to be something further. This is a flaw, but you seem to be equating the player not being able to do anything between acts as the character doing nothing. Perhaps this breaks you immersion in the game, perhaps you want a more detailed journal entry about what Hawke and his companions do in the time-skip but you would still have no control over what happens between acts. If the writers don't specifically mention that Hawke did X, Y, and Z during the three years it does not mean Hawke didn't. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence and all that.

So now you're saying that doing two things which should help people and show Hawke is being proactive are telling you that Hawke isn't being proactive, just because the game does not take it further. This does not make sense. If Hawke gives money to the Ferelden refugees and Evelina and gets Fereldens their jobs back in the mine the first time he clears it out he is being proactive. Just because they don't refer back to these events does not invalidate them happening. I can understand you want more, you want to see significant changes based on these actions, but you seem to be saying that because we don't see significant changes based on these actions that it means the initial actions did not happen.

Finally, the point should be raised. Why should Hawke be proactive in this area? Why should Hawke help the people of Darktown and the Ferelden refugee? Some players might not want their Hawke to use their wealth and status to help the downtrodden. Perhaps they're playing a Hawke who simply doesn't care about the plight of people who are not friends and family. Perhaps they're playing a Hawke who believes if he can raise himself up from nothing to nobility other people should do the work for themselves to do the same. You might want Hawke to be proactive in this, but even if it was put into the game via these DLCs, they would still most likely be optional.

Also, given the fairly weak position the Viscount is in, does Hawke's politcal connection to him give Hawke the pull necessary to do any of this? His political connections might be enough to keep him safe from the circle (if a mage), or other things, but this would be a large thing to do. It might be beyond the status of one noble. I'd also mention that you say Hawke is rich, but we don't know how rich. For all we know Hawke has his mansion and the money in our inventory and absolutely nothing else.

Also, please notice I'm not saying your idea is a bad one or that you're wrong about addressing this. Nothing in my posts has said anything of the sort. But simply because you say something doesn't mean I have to agree with it.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Hawke is a wealthly Human Noble who gave some loose change to one single person; that doesn't change the fact that he's not using his wealth or his status to do something about the plight of his own people.

Except that you don't seem to want to acknowledge that Hawke can do that, the game does not take it further. The player can literally sit there feeding Evelina all of his gold (perhaps a 100 gold or more depending on how much the player has at the time). That is not loose change, it is possible to give Evelina all that money. She would then hopefully use that money to help the children she protects. The game does not recognise that Hawke can give large, substantial sums of money to help several people in Darktown. Just because Hawke gives it only to Evelina does not mean she is the only one being helped in that situation. She specifically points out she is collecting money for the children. Plural, more than one.

LobselVith8 wrote...
You'll have to excuse me if your examples of Hawke giving loose change to one single person and going back to his mansion doesn't move me to agree with you.

I've addressed this above, let's see if you have the common curtesy to do the same or if you'll just give this sort of response again.

LobselVith8 wrote...
In other words, Hawke's too busy wearing silk robes and looking in front of the fireplace to give a damn about his own people? Excuse me for pointing out that Hawke does pretty much nothing except possibly giving some loose change to a store and one, single person in Darktown. It's not like he's a Human Noble with a fortune from the Deep Roads or a person valued by the Viscount who can try to do something besides killing people...

Excuse me for pointing out that Hawke actually does something in this particular case but the failing of the game is that nothing further is done with it. You seem to be saying that Hawke does nothing, but I've provided examples to the opposite. What should be the problem here is that the game doesn't follow up on it. The game does allow us to take the first step in this, but there are no further steps. That's the problem. Also, I'm going to have to say again, how much of a fortune does Hawke get from the Deep Roads? Is it enough to actually do anything properly about the poverty in Darktown? Does the puppet Viscount have the authority to do anything about it if Hawke had the option to ask?

Also, maybe between the battles Hawke fights, trying to keep his companions from getting possessed, taken prisoner by Qunari, help them find love, investigate haunted mansions, and so on, Hawke needs a bit of time to rest. Maybe Hawke it too emotionally and physically drained from his struggles that he cannot muster the effort to help turn a homeless underclass into at least a working class.
 

LobselVith8 wrote...
I'm struggling to think of why you've dedicated so much time to examining a small portion of my argument and essentially ignoring that Hawke is reactive instead of proactive. For the most part, he's a reactive character. The Champion of Kirkwall doesn't do any investigation to find out who helped Quentin and doesn't do anything about Meredith seizing power for three years.

Because, as previously indicated I agree with you on Quentin and Meredith. Why would I argue with you about them when I agree with you?

BLobselVith8 wrote...
I've prefer if he was a proactive character who actually had an impact on the society he lived in, as the podcast and the advertisements said he would. We were told that Hawke's story was one where we would: "Embark upon an all-new adventure that takes place across an entire decade and shapes itself around every decision you make." and that the protagonist would "Determine your rise to power from a destitute refugee to the revered champion of the land." Instead, we were given a linear progression where the two endings are virtually identical to one another, and choices didn't really matter.

First of all, you were taken in by advertising? Really?

Second, you're saying this like nobody else has noticed that the game did not live up to the marketing. But even if the adventure shaped "itself around every decision you make", that would not strictly mean that Hawke was proactive either. It also wouldn't mean that Hawke would have the chance to make decisions that made significant changes to Darktown and the refugees. All it would mean given the two quoted bits of advertising, is that when a choice is presented to Hawke things would change based on those decisions, and that over the course of the game Hawke would go from refugee to Champion. There are no specifics, there is nothing there to say Hawke will change society in a significant way or will be proactive in helping people.

I'd like to live in a world where DA2 gave us lots of choices which result in two playthroughs potentially having wildly different outcomes and even wildly different specifics during the course of the game. I'd love to be able to look at one playthrough and say, here was a Hawke who struggled against oppression, helped the mages but convinced many to avoid forbidden magic, improved the situation in the Alienage but failed to make an impact on the poverty of Darktown, and managed, with the help of Seamus, to provide a peaceful solution to the problems with the Qunari. And then look at another playthrough and say, wow, this Hawke was a hard-line militant Templar supporter, who had a strong hand in crushing all magic within the city. Still, this Hawke was a tireless promoter of Ferelden refugees, raising many of them out of Darktown into solid employment and homes in Lowtown, and through his political connetions and wealth marginalized the power of the Dwarven merchants guild, much to the chagrin of Varric. This Hawke even eliminated the Carta from the city, although he completely ignored the problems in the Alienage due to prejudice.

But we don't have that amount of choice.

LobselVith8 wrote...
I'm hoping the upcoming DLC will allow Hawke to be a proactive character who demonstrates some intelligence.

I hope that as well. I just don't expect the DLC to overhaul the entire game to make Hawke proactive beyond the DLC.

[LobselVith8]

[quote]BigEvil wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

You seem to be ignoring my argument entirely and trying to twist this into a small portion of my argument. I made a suggestion that, instead of doing absolutely nothing for three years until people hire him, he could try to make a difference in the community. You've gone on and on about this, but it doesn't really change the fact that Hawke is doing nothing. Yes, there could be problems with it, but I have every right to address that Hawke isn't using his wealth, his status, or his connection to the Viscount to change Kirkwall for the better.

Yes, you mentioned you can press a button and Hawke can do something, but that ignores the fact that Hawke isn't doing anything for the people despite being wealthy and having a political connection. Giving money to the store for the Ferelden refugees when it doesn't change anything in the storyline but provide XP and giving money to Evelina when it doesn't change anything for the multitude of men, women, and children who are destitute doesn't tell me that Hawke is proactive. I provided merely two examples (Darktown and the Alienage) where Hawke does nothing, and we see that when he's unwilling to get involved in finding out who helped his mother's murderer and in not addressing Meredith as Kirkwall's dictator for three years.[/quote]

No, I am not ignoring your argument entirely. I stated quite clearly in my first post that I agreed with your other points regarding the Alienage, investigating Quentin, etc. It was only the part of your argument about Darktown and Evelina that I had issue with. Why would I argue against points I agree with?

The simple fact is this is a small part of your argument and I'm not twisting anything. I'm arguing against one of your points, not all of them. Perhaps if you'd paid attention to that you wouldn't be ignoring the points I bring up and simply sticking to your initial point as if saying it repeatedly somehow makes it right. I think your suggestion that Hawke should be proactive is a good one, but you seem to be demanding things which cannot be supplied. [/quote]

I made a suggestion about what Hawke could do. This is the same character who doesn't do anything when two templars come to take away his sister to the same Circle of Kirkwall where he knows a mage was made illegally tranquil, and can discover in Act II that mages are getting raped by templars but still does nothing even though his friend Anders is smuggling mages out of the Gallows. I have a problem with the protagonist being such a reactive character.

[quote]BigEvil wrote...

You want Hawke to do things in the three year gap between Act II and Act III. Ok, fine, but since we cannot play during the time-skip the most the writers/devs would ever give us would be a journal entry stating that Hawke did such things and a few different bits of dialogue in the following act. Unless they give us a DLC which fits between the gap of Act II and Act III there's not going to be something further. This is a flaw, but you seem to be equating the player not being able to do anything between acts as the character doing nothing. [/quote]

I want Hawke to be proactive and demonstrate intelligence, that's what I want.

[quote]BigEvil wrote...

Perhaps this breaks you immersion in the game, perhaps you want a more detailed journal entry about what Hawke and his companions do in the time-skip but you would still have no control over what happens between acts. If the writers don't specifically mention that Hawke did X, Y, and Z during the three years it does not mean Hawke didn't. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence and all that.

So now you're saying that doing two things which should help people and show Hawke is being proactive are telling you that Hawke isn't being proactive, just because the game does not take it further. [/quote]

I addressed two areas where Hawke could be doing something. If Bethany is taken to the Circle, for instance, we never get the impression that Hawke tries to help her in any way, and he never even brings up the issue about his imprisoned sister when he speaks to Cullen in Act II. If my sister was in an enviornment where she could be get raped or given a lobotomy, I'd want to get her out of there, and we see Circle mage Bethany is resentful of Hawke towards the end of Act II.

[quote]BigEvil wrote...

This does not make sense. If Hawke gives money to the Ferelden refugees and Evelina and gets Fereldens their jobs back in the mine the first time he clears it out he is being proactive. Just because they don't refer back to these events does not invalidate them happening. I can understand you want more, you want to see significant changes based on these actions, but you seem to be saying that because we don't see significant changes based on these actions that it means the initial actions did not happen. [/quote]

Hawke convinces the refugees to get back to work at the mine because Hubert asked him to. Where is Hawke being proactive in following orders? Where is Hawke being proactive in giving money to Evelina when she asks him for money?

[quote]BigEvil wrote...

Finally, the point should be raised. Why should Hawke be proactive in this area? [/quote]

Hawke can be proactive in another area, I only made a suggestion about something he could do. It's not set in stone. If others have alternatives about what Hawke could do, that's cool.

[quote]BigEvil wrote...

Why should Hawke help the people of Darktown and the Ferelden refugee? Some players might not want their Hawke to use their wealth and status to help the downtrodden. Perhaps they're playing a Hawke who simply doesn't care about the plight of people who are not friends and family. Perhaps they're playing a Hawke who believes if he can raise himself up from nothing to nobility other people should do the work for themselves to do the same. You might want Hawke to be proactive in this, but even if it was put into the game via these DLCs, they would still most likely be optional. [/quote]

People should have choices, I agree. I'm not saying Hawke should be forced to do X, Y, and Z, I made some suggestions about what Hawke could have done instead of being a highwayman who stumbled onto being Champion.

[quote]BigEvil wrote...

Also, given the fairly weak position the Viscount is in, does Hawke's politcal connection to him give Hawke the pull necessary to do any of this? [/quote]

As long as it doesn't get the disapproval from the templars, I don't see why not. It's not like I suggested that Hawke should convince the Viscount to protect the mages from the templars or anything like that.

[quote]BigEvil wrote...

His political connections might be enough to keep him safe from the circle (if a mage), or other things, but this would be a large thing to do. It might be beyond the status of one noble. I'd also mention that you say Hawke is rich, but we don't know how rich. For all we know Hawke has his mansion and the money in our inventory and absolutely nothing else.

Also, please notice I'm not saying your idea is a bad one or that you're wrong about addressing this. Nothing in my posts has said anything of the sort. But simply because you say something doesn't mean I have to agree with it. [/quote]

You're welcome to disagree with me.

[quote]BigEvil wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

In other words, Hawke's too busy wearing silk robes and looking in front of the fireplace to give a damn about his own people? Excuse me for pointing out that Hawke does pretty much nothing except possibly giving some loose change to a store and one, single person in Darktown. It's not like he's a Human Noble with a fortune from the Deep Roads or a person valued by the Viscount who can try to do something besides killing people...[/quote]

Excuse me for pointing out that Hawke actually does something in this particular case but the failing of the game is that nothing further is done with it. [/quote]

My issue with this is that Hawke is reacting to Evelina asking for money, which doesn't make him a proactive character.

[quote]BigEvil wrote...

You seem to be saying that Hawke does nothing, but I've provided examples to the opposite. [/quote]

I'm addressing Hawke is reactive. The Champion of Kirkwall clearly does things when people ask him to kill X, Y, and Z, but doing something when it's requested of him instead of taking initiative doesn't make him a proactive protagonist. 

[quote]BigEvil wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I've prefer if he was a proactive character who actually had an impact on the society he lived in, as the podcast and the advertisements said he would. We were told that Hawke's story was one where we would: "Embark upon an all-new adventure that takes place across an entire decade and shapes itself around every decision you make." and that the protagonist would "Determine your rise to power from a destitute refugee to the revered champion of the land." Instead, we were given a linear progression where the two endings are virtually identical to one another, and choices didn't really matter.[/quote]

First of all, you were taken in by advertising? Really? [/quote]

You realize this was promised to be a feature in the podcasts, and even developers posted that Hawke would be able to implement change in the sequel, right? Michael Hamilton mentioned, for instance, that Hawke would be able to implement change for the mages that The Warden couldn't in a thread discussing the failed Magi boon (where he called the Chantry controlled Circles a dictatorship).

[quote]BigEvil wrote...

Second, you're saying this like nobody else has noticed that the game did not live up to the marketing. But even if the adventure shaped "itself around every decision you make", that would not strictly mean that Hawke was proactive either. It also wouldn't mean that Hawke would have the chance to make decisions that made significant changes to Darktown and the refugees. All it would mean given the two quoted bits of advertising, is that when a choice is presented to Hawke things would change based on those decisions, and that over the course of the game Hawke would go from refugee to Champion. There are no specifics, there is nothing there to say Hawke will change society in a significant way or will be proactive in helping people. [/quote]

I expected the story to live up to what the creators promised would be features in the actual game from the podcasts and the posts that they made.

[quote]BigEvil wrote...

I'd like to live in a world where DA2 gave us lots of choices which result in two playthroughs potentially having wildly different outcomes and even wildly different specifics during the course of the game. I'd love to be able to look at one playthrough and say, here was a Hawke who struggled against oppression, helped the mages but convinced many to avoid forbidden magic, improved the situation in the Alienage but failed to make an impact on the poverty of Darktown, and managed, with the help of Seamus, to provide a peaceful solution to the problems with the Qunari. And then look at another playthrough and say, wow, this Hawke was a hard-line militant Templar supporter, who had a strong hand in crushing all magic within the city. Still, this Hawke was a tireless promoter of Ferelden refugees, raising many of them out of Darktown into solid employment and homes in Lowtown, and through his political connetions and wealth marginalized the power of the Dwarven merchants guild, much to the chagrin of Varric. This Hawke even eliminated the Carta from the city, although he completely ignored the problems in the Alienage due to prejudice.

But we don't have that amount of choice. [/quote]

That's true, we don't. It's a linear progression that pretty much leads to the same conclusion - i.e. mage rebellion and templars leaving the Chantry to hunt the mages.

[quote]BigEvil wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I'm hoping the upcoming DLC will allow Hawke to be a proactive character who demonstrates some intelligence.[/quote]

I hope that as well. I just don't expect the DLC to overhaul the entire game to make Hawke proactive beyond the DLC. [/quote]

I don't expect the DLC to make up for the sequel's shortcomings, I'm simply hoping for an intelligent and proactive protagonist.

[BigEvil]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I made a suggestion about what Hawke could do. This is the same character who doesn't do anything when two templars come to take away his sister to the same Circle of Kirkwall where he knows a mage was made illegally tranquil, and can discover in Act II that mages are getting raped by templars but still does nothing even though his friend Anders is smuggling mages out of the Gallows. I have a problem with the protagonist being such a reactive character.

I can see you really want to push this proactive character angle. Ok, that's fine. I don't think I want Hawke to be as proactive as you do. I think that realistically there are things Hawke cannot do. Getting Bethany out of the circle is one of those (at least until the end of the game if you side with the mages). If we could get Bethany out of the circle it would weaken the impact of the consequences of our decision to have Hawke leave Bethany behind when he goes on the expedition. There would have to then be consequences to getting Bethany out of the circle and given the situation in Kirkwall the consequence could easily be having to flee the Free Marches. There are limits to how much the game (if it was everything we wanted) could do.

How would you go about having these decisions change the game in such a way? How would you continue the narrative of the story (with the limitation that it is supposed to be about being part of the Qunari and mage/templar conflicts in Kirkwall) if one of your choices at the end of Act I forces at least Hawke, Bethany and Leandra to flee the city?

BigEvil wrote...

Also, given the fairly weak position the Viscount is in, does Hawke's politcal connection to him give Hawke the pull necessary to do any of this?

LobselVith8 wrote...

As long as it doesn't get the disapproval from the templars, I don't see why not. It's not like I suggested that Hawke should convince the Viscount to protect the mages from the templars or anything like that.

I don't agree. The templars seem to have much more to disapprove of than just things related to mages in the city. We know that the templars don't want the city guard to have their own command structure and want to control them. Meredith wants to control everything, and I doubt the Viscount or the nobles (Hawke included) could really do anything politically if for whatever reason she decides helping the poor is a waste of time or resources. Especially if the majority of these changes would happen between Act II and Act III. Even if started in Act II once the Viscount dies and Meredith takes over she could squash the project.

BigEvil wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I've prefer if he was a proactive character who actually had an impact on the society he lived in, as the podcast and the advertisements said he would. We were told that Hawke's story was one where we would: "Embark upon an all-new adventure that takes place across an entire decade and shapes itself around every decision you make." and that the protagonist would "Determine your rise to power from a destitute refugee to the revered champion of the land." Instead, we were given a linear progression where the two endings are virtually identical to one another, and choices didn't really matter.

First of all, you were taken in by advertising? Really?

LobselVith8 wrote...

You realize this was promised to be a feature in the podcasts, and even developers posted that Hawke would be able to implement change in the sequel, right? Michael Hamilton mentioned, for instance, that Hawke would be able to implement change for the mages that The Warden couldn't in a thread discussing the failed Magi boon (where he called the Chantry controlled Circles a dictatorship).

You realise I was not being serious with that line, right? Ok, so they said Hawke would be able to implement change for the mages that the Warden couldn't. Did they specifically say that the choice would be before the end-game choice or that it would result in a significantly different outcome to siding with the templars? I didn't watch the podcasts, so I don't know and don't much care. Did they say that we would see the results of this change for mages during the game?

Should such decisions and changes have had bigger and more apparent impact? Sure. Would having those changes make Hawke a proactive character? Not for sure. It would depend on if the writers decided to write Hawke that way. The changes could still end up being presented to Hawke by other people and still have large effects without Hawke seeking out those changes of his own volition.

I don't think we're ever going to reach any kind of middle ground with this. I'd like a character who can be proactive at times and intelligent, but I'm not going to lose sleep over one that isn't. Have fun stressing over this.

[LobselVith8]

BigEvil wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I made a suggestion about what Hawke could do. This is the same character who doesn't do anything when two templars come to take away his sister to the same Circle of Kirkwall where he knows a mage was made illegally tranquil, and can discover in Act II that mages are getting raped by templars but still does nothing even though his friend Anders is smuggling mages out of the Gallows. I have a problem with the protagonist being such a reactive character.

I can see you really want to push this proactive character angle.

You need to read the templar v. mage debates if you want to see people really pushing their opinions.

BigEvil wrote...

Ok, that's fine. I don't think I want Hawke to be as proactive as you do.

That's okay. It's not an issue we need to agree on. I appreciate you sharing your opinion with me, even though we disagree. Some people tend to take disagreements very personally and act like the person who won't agree with them is evil incarnate.

BigEvil wrote...

I think that realistically there are things Hawke cannot do. Getting Bethany out of the circle is one of those (at least until the end of the game if you side with the mages). If we could get Bethany out of the circle it would weaken the impact of the consequences of our decision to have Hawke leave Bethany behind when he goes on the expedition.

If Hawke tried to get Bethany out but there was an issue with pulling it off, then I could accept that. However, we don't get the impression that Hawke even cares that his sister was imprisoned when he doesn't even bring it up with the Knight-Captain who took her in the first place.

BigEvil wrote...

There would have to then be consequences to getting Bethany out of the circle and given the situation in Kirkwall the consequence could easily be having to flee the Free Marches. There are limits to how much the game (if it was everything we wanted) could do.

How would you go about having these decisions change the game in such a way? How would you continue the narrative of the story (with the limitation that it is supposed to be about being part of the Qunari and mage/templar conflicts in Kirkwall) if one of your choices at the end of Act I forces at least Hawke, Bethany and Leandra to flee the city?

If the narrative is going to focus on one place, I'd like to Kirkwall change over the years - the stores, the people, the enviornment. I'd like some of Hawke's actions to have an impact on the outcome of some places in the city-state he has spent almost a decade living in - both good and bad.

BigEvil wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

As long as it doesn't get the disapproval from the templars, I don't see why not. It's not like I suggested that Hawke should convince the Viscount to protect the mages from the templars or anything like that.

I don't agree. The templars seem to have much more to disapprove of than just things related to mages in the city. We know that the templars don't want the city guard to have their own command structure and want to control them. Meredith wants to control everything, and I doubt the Viscount or the nobles (Hawke included) could really do anything politically if for whatever reason she decides helping the poor is a waste of time or resources. Especially if the majority of these changes would happen between Act II and Act III. Even if started in Act II once the Viscount dies and Meredith takes over she could squash the project.

Except we see the Viscount make decisions outside the scope of Meredith's knowledge - like getting the aid of Hawke to deal with the Viscount and possibly burning the bodies.

BigEvil wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You realize this was promised to be a feature in the podcasts, and even developers posted that Hawke would be able to implement change in the sequel, right? Michael Hamilton mentioned, for instance, that Hawke would be able to implement change for the mages that The Warden couldn't in a thread discussing the failed Magi boon (where he called the Chantry controlled Circles a dictatorship).

You realise I was not being serious with that line, right? Ok, so they said Hawke would be able to implement change for the mages that the Warden couldn't. Did they specifically say that the choice would be before the end-game choice or that it would result in a significantly different outcome to siding with the templars? I didn't watch the podcasts, so I don't know and don't much care. Did they say that we would see the results of this change for mages during the game?

It's difficult to determine tone in a post sometimes. As for change, it was said Hawke's actions would have an impact. Hamilton said as much in discussing why Hawke would establish change for the mages when The Warden (with the Magi boon that was turned down) couldn't.

BigEvil wrote...

Should such decisions and changes have had bigger and more apparent impact? Sure. Would having those changes make Hawke a proactive character? Not for sure. It would depend on if the writers decided to write Hawke that way. The changes could still end up being presented to Hawke by other people and still have large effects without Hawke seeking out those changes of his own volition.

I don't think we're ever going to reach any kind of middle ground with this. I'd like a character who can be proactive at times and intelligent, but I'm not going to lose sleep over one that isn't. Have fun stressing over this. 

Fair enough, we can agree to disagree.

[Smilietime]

This is a common problem for storytelling in general. Some other people made a big explanation, I'll put a link to it here:

http://tvtropes.org/...sActHeroesReact