738 réponses à ce sujet

[Lumikki]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

No, it's based on the genre, past bioware titles and what one comes to expect from a game that says its an RPG where you're choices matter. 100% of the marketing for DA2 stated this, and it can't be further from the truth, since the player's choices over the course of the game matters zero. The idea that people are ok with that, and encourage that for future titles, is nothing short of astounding to me.

Who say's we think it's okey? There is different between saying DAO was masterpiece and DAO junk and saying some area wasn't so well done. DAO wasn't much better, sure I consider it better product, but not that much.  Sure, DAO had more choises what did matter little bit more, but in the end 90% of gameplay was also linear like hell. Mostly because there was one linear story to play.

That's without mentioning the reused art, the massive lore retcons on a whim, the fact that voice overs for the PC make every playthrough pretty much identical.  There are so many reasons why DA2 is not a good game yet a core group just wants to pretend isn't the case. Almost as if they have fingers in their ears going LA LA LA I can't hear you!.

Pretend it's good game? It's fine game, but refuse to see that DA2 has many design mistakes? No, we see them just fine and have given costructive critism in the sticky thread, go look there. How ever, I don't judge DA2 as bad game just because I think it's base design isn't corretly done for my taste of games.  I play the game and give feedback.  I don't judge game company based my expection or taste of games, I just give my opinion about the game after played it, what I liked and what not.

Modifié par Lumikki, 29 mai 2011 - 02:15 .

[DragonRageGT]

Master Shiori wrote...

Whether his/her opinion matters to you is irrelevant. But every opinion voiced here matters to Mike and Bioware.

Both of you payed the full price for the game and, as such, are equaly important to Bioware, reagrdless of how many achievements you collected or how many times you finished the game.

True, true. But I wouldn't expect them  to matter to BW that much either. Unless we're stockholders.

[Sister Helen]

Tommy6860 wrote...

Sister Helen wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...

Sister Helen wrote...

If I dislike a computer game or stop playing it for whatever reason, I toss it in the corner and forget about it; I don't bother to remember the name of the company, because usually companies that put out bad games tend to vanish after a couple of years.  Bethseda is the exception; they produce good games, which I NEVER buy and go out of my way to avoid, due to the vertigo/nosebleeds thing that I got playing from one of the recent Fallout games.

Good points and I respect your opinions, though I may disagree on a few, but I have to ask. You state Bethesda makes good games, but you avoid them, because One Fallout game was cause for you to experience vertigo and nosebleeds?

Heh.  The Husband loves Bethseda games.  So they must be good. 

Just because I can't play them doesn't mean that they aren't good. 

That's cool and I wasn't criticizing, but you didn't answer the question, which I find interesting. Why do Bethesda games cause vertigo and nosebleeds?

Ahh.  I didn't understand your question.  Apologies.

I don't know why Bethseda games cause me vertigo and nosebleeds.  (And they literally do, I wasn't using hyperbole.)  Maybe something about the full motion camera swinging around...?  I get similar problems with flight simulators.  And on a few amusement park rides.

[Dragoonlordz]

Ottemis wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

RageGT wrote...

No, meaning he has the same perception of DA2 as I have. DA:O is a Symphonic playing a Masterpiece. DA2 is a midi keyboard playing Lady Gaga!

And the art, really. Origins may not have the best ever design what what they did with elves, darkspawn, zevran, trolls.. would boarder a really bad taste joke if it weren't so so sad!

I did not think DAO was masterpiece of anyting, just normal good game what Bioware has made, that's all. Mostly I did find DAO more like annoying. NO, I don't mean DAO hasn't have good design there too, I do, but masterpiece. Far from it.

As many of us on here think the opposite and that DAO was a better game, you think DA2 was better by sounds of it. The question is which group has the most people in it. I think the former and even you I doubt think the latter has more. Therefore the former takes precedent.

Hmno heh, the question is where does Bioware wish to take it.
They have heard you all you know. If they still, and despite of it, don't want to go back to Origins purely, that's the way it is, isn't it. Whatever will be, will be.

I have made my opinion known, whether they listen, whether they agree or whether they go tra la la and dance to the theme of the hills are alive with the sound of music... It's not my problem and in the end my wallet and what I buy speaks for itself as does for others and as has been seen with the rather lacking sales in DA2 (so far). They admit they didn't get it right only time will tell if anything people have said here will make a bean of difference in the development of the next title and that will only come with details during that development of what is or is not in game. I'm not going to cry over if they continue to head down what I consider an unlikley chance of success path in hitting his 'sweet spot' audience, I'll just buy other games but atleast I have stated my views rather than hide in corner silent as a mouse and get the same mistakes again every time because didn't speak up.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 29 mai 2011 - 02:19 .

[Lumikki]

Corto81 wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...


Brent Knowles refused to work on Dragon Age 2 and BioWare assigned him to work on the console version of the project ( Origins ).

Breat Knowles is important how?

Because story goes Knowles was the main designer for Origins and it was more in line with his picture of an epic RPG.

So, if you own picture of an epic  RPG is same as Brent Knowles, it's make it's importan how?  Have you consider that some other people, including players, may not agree with him. You put him as your "point", because it fits in you vision of games, but not all peole share same vision of RPG's.

Modifié par Lumikki, 29 mai 2011 - 02:20 .

[Dragoonlordz]

Sister Helen wrote...

Ahh.  I didn't understand your question.  Apologies.

I don't know why Bethseda games cause me vertigo and nosebleeds.  (And they literally do, I wasn't using hyperbole.)  Maybe something about the full motion camera swinging around...?  I get similar problems with flight simulators.  And on a few amusement park rides.

It's perception, you will find in more often than not that you get that in FPS style games first person perspective titles rather than third person camera angle.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 29 mai 2011 - 02:21 .

[Cutlass Jack]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Is fable 3 really that bad? I was going to get it on PC after the complete overhaul they did on its interface and graphics and some mechanics in porting it.

I'm enjoying it. But I went in with no expectations and never having played the first two. My main issue with it that I got it from Steam yet am forced to deal with Games for Windows Live as well to play it. And while the interface has been fully integrated for PC keyboard, there are some cumbersome methods of doing things that stem from it being designed for consoles.

The game does have some pretty funny quests in it though. There's a brilliant one that parodies both video game design and tabletop RPGs. You'd swear at points they were directly parodying some of the complaints aimed at DA2, except it couldn't have been based on when it came out.

[Lumikki]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

RageGT wrote...

No, meaning he has the same perception of DA2 as I have. DA:O is a Symphonic playing a Masterpiece. DA2 is a midi keyboard playing Lady Gaga!

And the art, really. Origins may not have the best ever design what what they did with elves, darkspawn, zevran, trolls.. would boarder a really bad taste joke if it weren't so so sad!

I did not think DAO was masterpiece of anyting, just normal good game what Bioware has made, that's all. Mostly I did find DAO more like annoying. NO, I don't mean DAO hasn't have good design there too, I do, but masterpiece. Far from it.

As many of us on here think the opposite and that DAO was a better game, you think DA2 was better by sounds of it. The question is which group has the most people in it. I think the former and even you I doubt think the latter has more. Therefore the former takes precedent.

Who sayed anything to be better?

This is "your" people problem, making assumptions. it's allways so extreme, one way or other. Never have possibility that both games has good and bad points. One has to be good and other bad.

[Sister Helen]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Is fable 3 really that bad? I was going to get it on PC after the complete overhaul they did on its interface and graphics and some mechanics in porting it.

I'm enjoying it. But I went in with no expectations and never having played the first two. My main issue with it that I got it from Steam yet am forced to deal with Games for Windows Live as well to play it. And while the interface has been fully integrated for PC keyboard, there are some cumbersome methods of doing things that stem from it being designed for consoles.

The game does have some pretty funny quests in it though. There's a brilliant one that parodies both video game design and tabletop RPGs. You'd swear at points they were directly parodying some of the complaints aimed at DA2, except it couldn't have been based on when it came out.

I understand that there is a chicken costume in the game.  Gotta love a game where the main character wears a chicken costume... 

Hey, Mr. Laidlaw!  How about it for Dragon Age 3...? 

[DragonRageGT]

Lumikki wrote...

So, if you own picture of an epic  RPG is same as Brent Knowles, it's make it's importan how?  Have you consider that some other people, including players, may not agree with him. You put him as your "point", because it fits in you vision of games, but not all peole share same vision of RPG's.

Brent Knowles left the company also because he disagreed with the direction that DA2 was going. Dumbed down gameplay to attract the justin bieber audience!

And there are also people who denies that men ever landed on the moon or that osama is dead. That doesn't make them any more correct, to me, than delirious people with problems facing reality, IMHO!

[Ottemis]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Yes, I do. To use one example, I know that there are people who fire up a game like Origins, see either character generation or a big wall of stats to pick and they immediately turn it off again. I also am cognizant that there are people who see that big wall of stats and get really excited.

I believe that there are more of the former than the latter. It doesn't mean either side is wrong, and it sure as hell doesn't mean we should cut stats, it just means that, perhaps, opening the game with a big wall of them is not ideal.

I'd love to know what brought Mike to this conclusion. because judging by how the majority of people felt about DA2's dumbing down, not only here but on other game sites like Blues News and Evil Avatar for example, any DA2 thread has about 99% negative responces because of what Mike says right in this quote. Then when you look at the sales data in comparison to Origins or other deeper CRPG's, its not a contest. So I'm a bit puzzled how the devs are getting this scenario as truth. Perhaps all those "data collectors" within titles, they're using these days either don't work well or they're only looking at console player data who knows.

Does Bioware want to make deep CRPG's at all at this point? Or yearly action game iterations ala the call of dutys of the world? The way it comes off, certainly sounds like the latter.

There is not much room left to dumb down the game even further. When the game mechanics are even more streamlined than they are now it might as well be called an adventure with a nice story and flashy combat.

I agree with Sarah. Who is it that BW tries to gather for? And does that audience really exists? The shooter fans can be lured into the ME franchise. I can understand that bit. No matter what audience, whether they play on PC or console, I believe that gamers don't want to be treated like they can't think.

Well I can tell you they'd be catering to me, for one.
You could say, I already play RPG's so 'it doesn't count'. But I come from one extreme in the spectre, and the fact that I had more automatic incentive to try out this hybrid doesn't mean I can't appreciate it for the hybrid it is similarly to others, and I am infact part of the 'target-audience'. Not because I played DAO before, but because I discovered through games like ME2 and DA2, I can get the best of two worlds in a game and genuinly ENJOY hybrids.
Asmuch as I can appreciate ME and ME2 for it's shooterelements, coming from an RPG background myself, the same goes for DA2 and it's more action/adventury features.

Modifié par Ottemis, 29 mai 2011 - 02:29 .

[DragonRageGT]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Sister Helen wrote...

Ahh.  I didn't understand your question.  Apologies.

I don't know why Bethseda games cause me vertigo and nosebleeds.  (And they literally do, I wasn't using hyperbole.)  Maybe something about the full motion camera swinging around...?  I get similar problems with flight simulators.  And on a few amusement park rides.

It's perception, you will find in more often than not that you get that in FPS style games first person perspective titles rather than third person camera angle.

Always played Bethesda games with 3rd person view, except for shooting arrows. I hate the first person view even if it doesn't cause me anything! =P

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Lumikki wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

RageGT wrote...

No, meaning he has the same perception of DA2 as I have. DA:O is a Symphonic playing a Masterpiece. DA2 is a midi keyboard playing Lady Gaga!

And the art, really. Origins may not have the best ever design what what they did with elves, darkspawn, zevran, trolls.. would boarder a really bad taste joke if it weren't so so sad!

I did not think DAO was masterpiece of anyting, just normal good game what Bioware has made, that's all. Mostly I did find DAO more like annoying. NO, I don't mean DAO hasn't have good design there too, I do, but masterpiece. Far from it.

As many of us on here think the opposite and that DAO was a better game, you think DA2 was better by sounds of it. The question is which group has the most people in it. I think the former and even you I doubt think the latter has more. Therefore the former takes precedent.

Who sayed anything to be better?

This is "your" people problem, making assumptions. it's allways so extreme, one way or other. Never have possibility that both games has good and bad points. One has to be good and other bad.

Actually, I stated many many many times during DA2's development that Bioware could strive for a middle ground with game mechanics to make both groups either happy or at least content. Unforutnately they perfered the dumbed down, streamlined approach instead.

[Dragoonlordz]

Lumikki wrote...

Corto81 wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...


Brent Knowles refused to work on Dragon Age 2 and BioWare assigned him to work on the console version of the project ( Origins ).

Breat Knowles is important how?

Because story goes Knowles was the main designer for Origins and it was more in line with his picture of an epic RPG.

So, if you own picture of an epic  RPG is same as Brent Knowles, it's make it's importan how?  Have you consider that some other people, including players, may not agree with him. You put him as your "point", because it fits in you vision of games, but not all peole share same vision of RPG's.

DA would not have been imho a big success if wasn't for his direction in the first place of what his idiology was in making of DAO. Other members of the team played a part but a lead ultimatley decides the direction (depending on if has the backbone to do it against their masters EA). I also respect him for walking away when the franchise was heading in a new direction and for having the guts to turn away from a paycheck because it was not what he wanted to do rather than being one of those "suck it up princess" to quote DG ~who suck the balls of their bosses out of fear of finding something better employment or lifestyle wise being a harder route to take.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 29 mai 2011 - 02:36 .

[Cutlass Jack]

RageGT wrote...

Always played Bethesda games with 3rd person view, except for shooting arrows. I hate the first person view even if it doesn't cause me anything! =P

Me too. At least Fallout made ranged combat viable in 3rd person view. And I think I read somewhere that Skyrim will be improving that.

At least I hope its true and not something I just imagined.

[Dragoonlordz]

Sister Helen wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Is fable 3 really that bad? I was going to get it on PC after the complete overhaul they did on its interface and graphics and some mechanics in porting it.

I'm enjoying it. But I went in with no expectations and never having played the first two. My main issue with it that I got it from Steam yet am forced to deal with Games for Windows Live as well to play it. And while the interface has been fully integrated for PC keyboard, there are some cumbersome methods of doing things that stem from it being designed for consoles.

The game does have some pretty funny quests in it though. There's a brilliant one that parodies both video game design and tabletop RPGs. You'd swear at points they were directly parodying some of the complaints aimed at DA2, except it couldn't have been based on when it came out.

I understand that there is a chicken costume in the game.  Gotta love a game where the main character wears a chicken costume... 

Hey, Mr. Laidlaw!  How about it for Dragon Age 3...? 

Yeh Fable 2 also had the chicken costume. customisation in Fable was always good appearance wise. Interesting to know that Fable 3 also has it.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 29 mai 2011 - 02:33 .

[Sister Helen]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Yeh Fable 2 also had the chicken costume. customisation in Fable was always good appearance wise. Interesting to know that FAble 3 also has it.

Whoohoo!  Those games are definitely going on the Christmas wish list. 

Chicken feet for the win! 

Modifié par Sister Helen, 29 mai 2011 - 02:37 .

[Luvinn]

Perles75 wrote...


So my question is: did he succeed in his purpose? did he actually reach a "wider audience" with DA2?

I still can't understand why they wanted to reach a wider audience in the first place. I mean, did DA:O not sell enough units? Taking away RPG elements is going to alienate the RPG fans, and lets face it, there are far better games that focus on the pure "action" element. I know the bottom line of a business is to make money, but trying to please fans of both genres isn't going to work. Did they really think the FPS crowd would play DA2? If you want to take Dragon age and make it more action, then do it. And do it well. Just don't count on me to buy it (until its on sale). Or go all out pause/play rpg like DA:O.

[Dragoonlordz]

Sister Helen wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Yeh Fable 2 also had the chicken costume. customisation in Fable was always good appearance wise. Interesting to know that FAble 3 also has it.

Whoohoo!  Those games are definitely going on the Christmas wish list. 

Chicken feet for the win!

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 29 mai 2011 - 02:38 .

[Lumikki]

Autolycus wrote...

Have you consider that some other people, including players, may not agree with him

And have you considered that the negative universal feedback, along with terrible sales compared to origins, says that most RPG fans do agree?

I'm RPG fans. Who are these most RPG fans?

My point again for you people, you assume what you self like, how you self define something, is the way it should be in every game and how some company should make game business. Because that's how YOU like it. You never seem to consider that there are many people out side of your defination how it should be or could be.

Now if you like classic RPG. I'm fine by it, because I like it too. How ever, I don't demand every game to be design in same base formula of classic RPG.

[Sister Helen]

@ Dragoonlordz:

I think I know now what the Husband is going to wear on our next Date Night!

Awesome!  (I now have a new desktop picture.  Thanks!)

[Yrkoon]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Yes, I do. To use one example, I know that there are people who fire up a game like Origins, see either character generation or a big wall of stats to pick and they immediately turn it off again. I also am cognizant that there are people who see that big wall of stats and get really excited.

I believe that there are more of the former than the latter.

Ugh...  you said this a year ago as an RPG game developer and   it sent shivers up my spine.  And here you are saying it again.

  It doesn't take metrics to reach the conclusion you're reaching.  One need only  compare Wii Sports's sales  (32 MILLION) to Any RPG ever released to see that yes, the former is a legion, while the latter is a small fringe niche by comparison.  

 But  the problem here is that  the Dragon age Franchise is  not an exercise game for Mom.  It's  an  RPG.    And  RPGs are not for everyone and never will be, despite your attempts to  convert the world.   RPGs are  *supposed* to be heavily  stat based from the get go.  Period.    The Character creation section at the beginning of an RPG is what an RPG fan  LOVES.  The more you reduce the stats/dice rolls/etc, the less of an RPG its going to be, and the more you're going to hear   accusations of "dumbed down!"

Yes, I know your response to that:  "well, there should be a middle ground".   Yeah,  Good luck finding it.   Go ahead and find a cure for Cancer while you're at it, Or solve the problems in the middle east. 

But just remember one thing that any good business man will tell you:  When you finally make it to the big Party, you dance with  who you came with.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 29 mai 2011 - 02:52 .