738 réponses à ce sujet

[Ottemis]

Lumikki wrote...

Autolycus wrote...

Have you consider that some other people, including players, may not agree with him

And have you considered that the negative universal feedback, along with terrible sales compared to origins, says that most RPG fans do agree?

I'm RPG fans. Who are these most RPG fans?

My point again for you people, you assume what you self like, how you self define something, is the way it should be in every game and how some company should make game business. Because that's how YOU like it. You never seem to consider that there are many people out side of your defination how it should be or could be.

Now if you like classic RPG. I'm fine by it, because I like it too. How ever, I don't demand every game to be design in same base formula of classic RPG.

Yes this ^
On the flipside I believe DA2 could have served the purpose of pulling new players into the fray better.
The problems in DA2's design are being adressed though, so I can only see it working better in the future.
I don't think you can judge the failing of an idea based on it's flawed initial execution.

Modifié par Ottemis, 29 mai 2011 - 02:42 .

[Lumikki]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

Autolycus wrote...

Have you consider that some other people, including players, may not agree with him

And have you considered that the negative universal feedback, along with terrible sales compared to origins, says that most RPG fans do agree?

AMEN!

It doesn't take many "rotten apples" to spoil the situation for everyone.

How ever, I do agree, that DA2 does deserve some of critism what it has got, because it did make few bad mistakes. Point is, there is different between judging direction of games design and judging gameplays design features.

Modifié par Lumikki, 29 mai 2011 - 02:46 .

[Dragoonlordz]

Lumikki wrote...

Autolycus wrote...

Have you consider that some other people, including players, may not agree with him

And have you considered that the negative universal feedback, along with terrible sales compared to origins, says that most RPG fans do agree?

I'm RPG fans. Who are these most RPG fans?

My point again for you people, you assume what you self like, how you self define something, is the way it should be in every game and how some company should make game business. Because that's how YOU like it. You never seem to consider that there are many people out side of your defination how it should be or could be.

Now if you like classic RPG. I'm fine by it, because I like it too. How ever, I don't demand every game to be design in same base formula of classic RPG.

No.. I think a franchise should stick to what made it a success to begin with not faff around switching from one style to another right after the first one. Want to try something new? Do it in a new IP that way you won't ****** off the fans of the original. It's not rocket science or brain surgery. You had a action RPG series with ME you had a more cRPG series with DA now you have two action RPG franchises except one scifi and other fantasy. If the DA franchise was stagnating (which is was not) then maybe consider change of direction but not before that happens which is akin to 'fear of stagnation' as mentioned before if change pre-emptively. I feel they should of approach the sequal in baby step approach fixing only what was broken in the original and if fancied trying new direction should not have done so on an ogirinal IP. But thats just my opinion.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 29 mai 2011 - 02:49 .

[Nerdage]

Luvinn wrote...

Perles75 wrote...


So my question is: did he succeed in his purpose? did he actually reach a "wider audience" with DA2?

I still can't understand why they wanted to reach a wider audience in the first place. I mean, did DA:O not sell enough units? Taking away RPG elements is going to alienate the RPG fans, and lets face it, there are far better games that focus on the pure "action" element. I know the bottom line of a business is to make money, but trying to please fans of both genres isn't going to work. Did they really think the FPS crowd would play DA2? If you want to take Dragon age and make it more action, then do it. And do it well. Just don't count on me to buy it (until its on sale). Or go all out pause/play rpg like DA:O.

Why is pause & play mutually exclusive with exciting combat?

[Hel]

devSin wrote...

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

I should think that integrating the chance for party members to act as persuades and the development of the first evolution of the cross class combo system speaks for itself. I think that the thing that defines DA is the sense of the party, of individuals working together to form something greater.

The problem I had with cross-class combos is that I never felt compelled to even bother. Maybe on the hardest difficulties, but on normal or less, it just never seemed to come up (sort of like harmonic combos... waste of time when they'll die a few seconds later anyway). So maybe you think it speaks for itself, but I couldn't hear it at all.

Agreed.

While the idea behind cross-class attacks has a lot of merrit, the necessity of executing them was lost to me. I can't remember a single instance where I fought a hostile that required my party to work together to defeat the threat.

The problem herein doesn't lie with the implementation of cross-class attacks, however, but rather with the other defensive abilities. Since most attacks do (glancing) damage either way and fights don't last long because the party makes short work of any hostiles, the player isn't really motivated to create cross-class attack chains.

When you're engaged in a fight against a sword-and-shield opponent this is obvious again and again. Your entire party can quickly disperse of the target by just piling on him. As it is now the target keeps taking damage even when attacks are being blocked (no animation sadly!). Now if the target were to actually block or parry incoming blows so no damage is taken, then it would make more sense to start a cross-class combo. Why? Because otherwise the fight would never end, it'd feel as if your party was fighting a wall without any chance of breaking through it. The cross-class combo would in this case be responsible for creating the necessary opening in the target's defenses to take him down.

I don't want to drag The Witcher 2 into this, but when Geralt is fighting a sword-and-shield target this very situation presents itself. Only when Geralt uses bombs, signs or traps can he make short work of hostiles such as these. Without Geralt's "cross-class skills" the player can often get stuck in long and perhaps tiresome (depending on the player's patience) back and forth fights.

My point is that most fights aren't worth the trouble of investing a lot of thought and time into. They aren't particularly hard to win, they're just long due to the numerous opponents that your party faces. If the combat scenario's were actually difficult then there wouldn't be a need for these large skirmishes either. And with difficult combat scenario's I don't mean giving the hostiles a lot of hitpoints and potions, but rather beefing up the defensive abilities and how they work (together) to bring your party down. The game does well on the let-me-damage-you front, but less so on the let-me-defend-myself-from-getting-hurt side of the things.

Modifié par Helekanalaith, 29 mai 2011 - 02:48 .

[Lumikki]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Want to try something new? Do it in a new IP that way you won't ****** off the fans of the original.

You same people where barking there (ME2) how it wasn't orginal RPG enough too.

Point here is while you like sertain games, what is cool, I'm fine by it. You expect us all to be same and like what you like?

PS: Personaly I do agree with you that they should keep the design different enough between DA and ME serie. ME serie is more cinematic hybrid, while DA serie was more close to classic RPG.

Modifié par Lumikki, 29 mai 2011 - 02:56 .

[Ottemis]

Dragoonlordz wrote...
No.. I think a franchise should stick to what made it a success to begin with not faff around switching from one style to another right after the first one. Want to try something new? Do it in a new IP that way you won't ****** off the fans of the original. It's not rocket science or brain surgery. You had a action RPG series with ME you had a more cRPG series with DA now you have two action RPG franchises except one scifi and other fantasy. If the DA franchise was stagnating (which is was not) then maybe consider change of direction but not before that happens which is akin to 'fear of stagnation' as mentioned before if change pre-emptively. I feel they should of approach the sequal in baby step approach fixing only what was broken in the original and if fancied trying new direction should not have done so on an ogirinal IP. But thats just my opinion.

It's crying over spilled milk though at this point. I understand it being frustrating, but they're heading this way. It is what it is.
I'd try and tell them which aspects from Origins and DA2 you would like to see combined, and work out some way to successfully combine them, bringing that up in contructive ways.
This ship has pretty much sailed, might aswell move forward.

Modifié par Ottemis, 29 mai 2011 - 02:53 .

[Lord_Valandil]

nerdage wrote...

Luvinn wrote...

Perles75 wrote...


So my question is: did he succeed in his purpose? did he actually reach a "wider audience" with DA2?

I still can't understand why they wanted to reach a wider audience in the first place. I mean, did DA:O not sell enough units? Taking away RPG elements is going to alienate the RPG fans, and lets face it, there are far better games that focus on the pure "action" element. I know the bottom line of a business is to make money, but trying to please fans of both genres isn't going to work. Did they really think the FPS crowd would play DA2? If you want to take Dragon age and make it more action, then do it. And do it well. Just don't count on me to buy it (until its on sale). Or go all out pause/play rpg like DA:O.

Why is pause & play mutually exclusive with exciting combat?

At least it's better than pushing buttons and make everything explode with a swing of your sword.
The combat in DA2 was boring as hell...with its neverending waves of generic enemies.

[Dragoonlordz]

Lumikki wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Want to try something new? Do it in a new IP that way you won't ****** off the fans of the original.

You same people where barking there (ME2) how it wasn't orginal RPG enough too.
Point here is while you like sertain games, what is cool, I'm fine by it. You expect us all to be same and like what you like?

PS: Personaly I do agree with you that they should keep the design different enough between DA and ME serie. ME serie is more cinematic hybrid, while DA serie was more close to classic RPG.

I liked both so don't assume one thing or another, I like some titles that are action RPG and some cRPG, spice is variety of life and all that. I have room in my collections for both BUT I do not approve of limiting that choice by switching both into the same style which is what they have done

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 29 mai 2011 - 02:54 .

[Ottemis]

Dragoonlordz wrote...
I liked both so don't assume one thing or another, I like some titles that are action RPG and some cRPG, spice is variety of life and all that. I have room in my collections for both BUT I do not approve of limiting that choice by switching both into the same style which is what they have done

I can appreciate that thought if it weren't for the ME series ending heh.

Modifié par Ottemis, 29 mai 2011 - 02:56 .

[Dragoonlordz]

Ottemis wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...
I liked both so don't assume one thing or another, I like some titles that are action RPG and some cRPG, spice is variety of life and all that. I have room in my collections for both BUT I do not approve of limiting that choice by switching both into the same style which is what they have done

I can appreciate that opinion if it weren't for the ME series ending heh.

They have said it won't end with ME3, merely Shepherds story will conclude in the aspect of the trilogy but that they won't end the ME franchise with ME3.

What we have now is instead of two styles of RPG in Biowares franchises we have one style across two IPs. They have limited and reduced the amount of style games they make and hence the reduction in sales is showing such a result due to relying now on one type of fanbase those more akin to action RPG's shown with ME series, they are losing a lot of the cRPG fans because they have merged the what once was cRPG into another aRPG..

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 29 mai 2011 - 03:01 .

[Aaleel]

I've never understood why you would make wholesale changes to your best selling product ever. If after a few games the series had become stagnant, and needed new life, and people were losing interest, fine do what you have to do to keep the series alive.

But if the game was a universal success for critics and fans, why completely overhaul it?

[Ottemis]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Ottemis wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...
I liked both so don't assume one thing or another, I like some titles that are action RPG and some cRPG, spice is variety of life and all that. I have room in my collections for both BUT I do not approve of limiting that choice by switching both into the same style which is what they have done

I can appreciate that opinion if it weren't for the ME series ending heh.

They have said it won't end with ME3, merely Shepherds story will conclude in the aspect of the trilogy but that they won't end the ME franchise with ME3.

Well, that doesn't mean future games would offer the same experience, if anything DA2 should be testament of that.
It's all in limbo for now, in a way.

Modifié par Ottemis, 29 mai 2011 - 03:01 .

[Yrkoon]

[quote]Dragoonlordz wrote...

Want to try something new? Do it in a new IP that way you won't ****** off the fans of the original. [/quote]
[/quote]
Oh Gods yes.  Agreed.

Are me and you the only ones here who get the sense that bioware decided to pick Dragon age to be  its experimental lab rat?


For gods sake, DA:O is their biggest selling game.    I must have missed that part of Business class when we were taught to  Butcher your cash cow.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 29 mai 2011 - 03:04 .

[Tshuman]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Autolycus wrote...

Have you consider that some other people, including players, may not agree with him

And have you considered that the negative universal feedback, along with terrible sales compared to origins, says that most RPG fans do agree?

I'm RPG fans. Who are these most RPG fans?

My point again for you people, you assume what you self like, how you self define something, is the way it should be in every game and how some company should make game business. Because that's how YOU like it. You never seem to consider that there are many people out side of your defination how it should be or could be.

Now if you like classic RPG. I'm fine by it, because I like it too. How ever, I don't demand every game to be design in same base formula of classic RPG.

No.. I think a franchise should stick to what made it a success to begin with not faff around switching from one style to another right after the first one. Want to try something new? Do it in a new IP that way you won't ****** off the fans of the original. It's not rocket science or brain surgery. You had a action RPG series with ME you had a more cRPG series with DA now you have two action RPG franchises except one scifi and other fantasy. If the DA franchise was stagnating (which is was not) then maybe consider change of direction but not before that happens which is akin to 'fear of stagnation' as mentioned before if change pre-emptively. I feel they should of approach the sequal in baby step approach fixing only what was broken in the original and if fancied trying new direction should not have done so on an ogirinal IP. But thats just my opinion.

Sorry to burst all of your bubbles who proclaim DA:O a  succes but it wasn't in terms of sales yes but it wasn't a succes in terms of gameplay. Look at ign's article about DAII changed things. The stats are oustanding. I might not like achievements on the xbox 360 but they tell you something. Many people didn't even complete DA:O. Many of them played a little and quit. DAII changed this for a reason because they new if they left DAII like DA:O they wouldn't even probably sell a million copies.  DAII did something right to make it a succes with the flaws and that is changing the way it works. Bioware was trying to change the mold and think outside the box and many of you disagree well thats fine. The problem is the irrational thinking you have. Developers need to make great games but to do that they need to makes sales. If they made another game just like DA:O it would have flopped and we probably wouldn't get another DA.  What they did is appeal to a wider market and it was success. I believe they did the right thing and I like both games but I played DAII more than DA:O. 

If you want to see an example of a company who abondens everything that makes the first game great go look at LIonhead Studios and the Fable series. They don't listen to their fans and rush games even worse. Bioware listens to us and tries to keep things people like while adjusting and adding new features that suit the game that bring in more people.

Modifié par Tshuman, 29 mai 2011 - 03:04 .

[Dragoonlordz]

Instead of moaning and trying to bring in the action RPG and action based players into Biowares fanbase (which they already had with ME) by changing DA which was more cRPG in style into another action RPG. They should of viewed it from the standpoint of both together one action one cRPG between the two you had a larger audience than merging the two into the same style. Common sense applies imho here. The reason why DA2 direction will not be any more successfull than ME and certainly not as successfull as having both action ME and cRPG DA bringing in more than one fanbase and sales when combined is now you have both action RPG so your relying on just one type of fanbase. As shown with these forums the majority of cRPG fans here and DAO fans are not happy that their cRPG is now a action RPG (just like ME series only less quality).

[Ottemis]

Tshuman wrote...
Sorry to burst all of your bubbles who proclaim DA:O a  succes but it wasn't in terms of sales yes but it wasn't a succes in terms of gameplay. Look at ign's article about DAII changed things. The stats are oustanding. I might not like achievements on the xbox 360 but they tell you something. Many people didn't even complete DA:O. Many of them played a little and quit. DAII changed this for a reason because they new if they left DAII like DA:O they wouldn't even probably sell a million copies.  DAII did something right to make it a succes with the flaws and that is changing the way it works. Bioware was trying to change the mold and think outside the box and many of you disagree well thats fine. The problem is the irrational thinking you have. Developers need to make great games but to do that they need to makes sales. If they made another game just like DA:O it would have flopped and we probably wouldn't get another DA.  What they did is appeal to a wider market and it was success. I believe they did the right thing and I like both games but I played DAII more than DA:O. 

Hmno, a second DAO might or might not have flopped.
Assumptions either side are just that, assumptions. You simply don't know what would have happened.
I do agree sales-numbers for DAO would have meant no guarantee for DA2, had they sticked to the original formula.
You can make a guestimate, that's about it. The rest is wishfull thinking.

Sticking with something, making changes, you can't make everybody happy all the time.
It's been said a bucket of times already. And again, it's crying over spilled milk.

Modifié par Ottemis, 29 mai 2011 - 03:10 .

[Dragoonlordz]

Tshuman wrote...

Sorry to burst all of your bubbles who proclaim DA:O a  succes but it wasn't in terms of sales yes but it wasn't a succes in terms of gameplay. Look at ign's article about DAII changed things. The stats are oustanding. I might not like achievements on the xbox 360 but they tell you something. Many people didn't even complete DA:O. Many of them played a little and quit. DAII changed this for a reason because they new if they left DAII like DA:O they wouldn't even probably sell a million copies.  DAII did something right to make it a succes with the flaws and that is changing the way it works. Bioware was trying to change the mold and think outside the box and many of you disagree well thats fine. The problem is the irrational thinking you have. Developers need to make great games but to do that they need to makes sales. If they made another game just like DA:O it would have flopped and we probably wouldn't get another DA.  What they did is appeal to a wider market and it was success. I believe they did the right thing and I like both games but I played DAII more than DA:O. 

If you want to see an example of a company who abondens everything that makes the first game great go look at LIonhead Studios and the Fable series. They don't listen to their fans and rush games even worse. Bioware listens to us and tries to keep things people like while adjusting and adding new features that suit the game that bring in more people.

Sorry to 'burst your bubble' but DA was a highly successfull selling title based on what it was and DA2 is not as successfull as it stands right now and never will be given the vast decline in sales over weeks since launch. You can claim one review is right and others wrong doesn't change fact all reviews are merely opinions, sales are what matter and show the evidence of success and regardless of any stats you wish to cling too the fact remains DAO was extremely successfull with regard to sales. You wish about the bolded part as in reality it would not have happened you can live in your fantasy world of "could of, would of, might have" but the reality says different. Sounds to me your the one in the bubble princess.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 29 mai 2011 - 03:13 .

[Lumikki]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

I liked both so don't assume one thing or another, I like some titles that are action RPG and some cRPG, spice is variety of life and all that. I have room in my collections for both BUT I do not approve of limiting that choice by switching both into the same style which is what they have done.

Sorry, if I assumed something.

There is no disagreement here, we both see that ME and DA series should be different. As my opinion, I think it's because ME serie would be good way to get new people in this kind of gaming, while DA serie should still try to please the old "classic" customer base. What Bioware is trying to do is hard to ques. How ever, I don't make Biowares marketing choises or deside where to go. They go where they want, that's they business.

Point is, I don't judge game based company game design directions, I judge game it self as it is.

Modifié par Lumikki, 29 mai 2011 - 03:16 .

[Nerdage]

Aaleel wrote...

But if the game was a universal success for critics and fans, why completely overhaul it?

It's almost as though they have a motive beyond commercial success for making some of these decisions... Like perhaps they thought they were for the better... But that would imply they have minds of their own, that they aren't mindless slaves of a corporate empire, and that they actually care about games. But that can't be true, can it?!

[Ottemis]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Instead of moaning and trying to bring in the action RPG and action based players into Biowares fanbase (which they already had with ME) by changing DA which was more cRPG in style into another action RPG. They should of viewed it from the standpoint of both together one action one cRPG between the two you had a larger audience than merging the two into the same style. Common sense applies imho here. The reason why DA2 direction will not be any more successfull than ME and certainly not as successfull as having both action ME and cRPG DA bringing in more than one fanbase and sales when combined is now you have both action RPG so your relying on just one type of fanbase. As shown with these forums the majority of cRPG fans here and DAO fans are not happy that their cRPG is now a action RPG (just like ME series only less quality).

The people talking about it are not the voice of the mayority per say. Did more then half of the people that purchased DAO that reside on these forums voice opinion that DA2's direction was a bad move? Afaik not that I would know.
If a few scream loudest, it doesn't make them the majority nor do they nessecarily represent the majority under MILLIONS.

Modifié par Ottemis, 29 mai 2011 - 03:17 .

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Tshuman wrote...

Sorry to burst all of your bubbles who proclaim DA:O a  succes but it wasn't in terms of sales yes but it wasn't a succes in terms of gameplay. Look at ign's article about DAII changed things. The stats are oustanding. I might not like achievements on the xbox 360 but they tell you something. Many people didn't even complete DA:O. Many of them played a little and quit. DAII changed this for a reason because they new if they left DAII like DA:O they wouldn't even probably sell a million copies.  DAII did something right to make it a succes with the flaws and that is changing the way it works. Bioware was trying to change the mold and think outside the box and many of you disagree well thats fine. The problem is the irrational thinking you have. Developers need to make great games but to do that they need to makes sales. If they made another game just like DA:O it would have flopped and we probably wouldn't get another DA.  What they did is appeal to a wider market and it was success. I believe they did the right thing and I like both games but I played DAII more than DA:O. 

If you want to see an example of a company who abondens everything that makes the first game great go look at LIonhead Studios and the Fable series. They don't listen to their fans and rush games even worse. Bioware listens to us and tries to keep things people like while adjusting and adding new features that suit the game that bring in more people.

Sorry to 'burst your bubble' but DA was a highly successfull selling title based on what it was and DA2 is not as successfull as it stands right now and never will be given the vast decline in sales over weeks since launch. You can claim one review is right and others wrong doesn'tr change fact all reviews are merely opinions, sales are what matter and show the evidence of success. You wish about the bolded part as in reality it would not have happened you can live in your fantasy world of "could of, would of, might have" but the reality says different. Sounds to me your the one in the bubble princess.

Well said, and not only that but the majority of the feedback IRT DA2 is mostly negative, as much as a few want to pretend that isn't the case. It takes a few minutes of looking on the intratubes to see that this is the case.