738 réponses à ce sujet

[Aaleel]

nerdage wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

But if the game was a universal success for critics and fans, why completely overhaul it?

It's almost as though they have a motive beyond commercial success for making some of these decisions... Like perhaps they thought they were for the better... But that would imply they have minds of their own, that they aren't mindless slaves of a corporate empire, and that they actually care about games. But that can't be true, can it?!

Yes it makes total sense to make a game that everyone loved, and somehow think that makes them slaves of the corporate empire.  Slaves of the corporate empire would do something like rushing out an unfinished product to capitalize on the success of a previous product as quickly as possible.  But that's not what happened, is it? 

[Dragoonlordz]

Lumikki wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

I liked both so don't assume one thing or another, I like some titles that are action RPG and some cRPG, spice is variety of life and all that. I have room in my collections for both BUT I do not approve of limiting that choice by switching both into the same style which is what they have done.

Sorry, if assumed something.

There is no disagreement here, we both see that ME and DA series should be different. As my opinion, I think it's because ME serie would be good way to get new people in this kind of gaming, while DA serie should still try to please the old "classic" customer base. What Bioware is trying to do is hard to ques. How ever, I don't make Biowares marketing choises or deside where to go. They go where they want, that's they business.

Point is, I don't judge game based company game design directions, I judge game it self as it is.

I presonally have nothing against you and glad we agree that the franchises should have remained seporate style wise. I do however believe that they are being narrow minded in regards to they need to see both as a whole being Bioware not just DA or just ME. You had two fanbases some like action RPG some like cRPG they had both of them when combine the two franchises. now they don't if continue down the route they heading.

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm not but these forums and sales are backing up my claim I feel.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 29 mai 2011 - 03:31 .

[Dragoonlordz]

Ottemis wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Instead of moaning and trying to bring in the action RPG and action based players into Biowares fanbase (which they already had with ME) by changing DA which was more cRPG in style into another action RPG. They should of viewed it from the standpoint of both together one action one cRPG between the two you had a larger audience than merging the two into the same style. Common sense applies imho here. The reason why DA2 direction will not be any more successfull than ME and certainly not as successfull as having both action ME and cRPG DA bringing in more than one fanbase and sales when combined is now you have both action RPG so your relying on just one type of fanbase. As shown with these forums the majority of cRPG fans here and DAO fans are not happy that their cRPG is now a action RPG (just like ME series only less quality).

The people talking about it are not the voice of the mayority per say. Did more then half of the people that purchased DAO that reside on these forums voice opinion that DA2's direction was a bad move? Afaik not that I would know.
If a few scream loudest, it doesn't make them the majority nor do they nessecarily represent the majority under MILLIONS.

The polls on these forums did that fairly well. Now I got better things to do than get too involved in a ****** for tat so I'm off to do some work feel free to try to discredit my opinion be unless this thread gets locked I will be back at some point to counter you on any claims you make. So bare that in mind.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 29 mai 2011 - 03:24 .

[Ottemis]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Ottemis wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Instead of moaning and trying to bring in the action RPG and action based players into Biowares fanbase (which they already had with ME) by changing DA which was more cRPG in style into another action RPG. They should of viewed it from the standpoint of both together one action one cRPG between the two you had a larger audience than merging the two into the same style. Common sense applies imho here. The reason why DA2 direction will not be any more successfull than ME and certainly not as successfull as having both action ME and cRPG DA bringing in more than one fanbase and sales when combined is now you have both action RPG so your relying on just one type of fanbase. As shown with these forums the majority of cRPG fans here and DAO fans are not happy that their cRPG is now a action RPG (just like ME series only less quality).

The people talking about it are not the voice of the mayority per say. Did more then half of the people that purchased DAO that reside on these forums voice opinion that DA2's direction was a bad move? Afaik not that I would know.
If a few scream loudest, it doesn't make them the majority nor do they nessecarily represent the majority under MILLIONS.

The polls on these forums did that fairly well.

Using something as evidence of something you believe doesn't make my point any less true.

[tmp7704]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

My thoughts are that we need to refine what we've done in terms of the game's overall presentation and responsiveness so that people who are expecting a more action experience are not immediately turned off by it. We need to continue to refine that presentation so that it continues to hold appeal to people that don't like the thought of dice being rolled and numbers flying off people's heads, even though that is exactly what is happening.

Isn't that like believing you could make a shooter enjoyable experience for people who simply don't like games about shooting people in the face, by making explosions bigger and the experience more visceral? Or a flight simulator appeal to people who plain don't like the idea of flying virtual planes, by making it prettier?

And, looking at it from another angle... even if you could achieve the goal of "not having people immediately turned off" by your game, if they don't like the basic principle your game is built upon what exactly do you gain by it? Obviously having them turn off your game couple hours in isn't viewed as desirable either, considering this exact behaviour was given as reason for many changes done to DAO. And you can't realistically hope for more than that if your game at its core is something that goes against the tastes of the player.

[Lord_Valandil]

Ottemis wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Ottemis wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Instead of moaning and trying to bring in the action RPG and action based players into Biowares fanbase (which they already had with ME) by changing DA which was more cRPG in style into another action RPG. They should of viewed it from the standpoint of both together one action one cRPG between the two you had a larger audience than merging the two into the same style. Common sense applies imho here. The reason why DA2 direction will not be any more successfull than ME and certainly not as successfull as having both action ME and cRPG DA bringing in more than one fanbase and sales when combined is now you have both action RPG so your relying on just one type of fanbase. As shown with these forums the majority of cRPG fans here and DAO fans are not happy that their cRPG is now a action RPG (just like ME series only less quality).

The people talking about it are not the voice of the mayority per say. Did more then half of the people that purchased DAO that reside on these forums voice opinion that DA2's direction was a bad move? Afaik not that I would know.
If a few scream loudest, it doesn't make them the majority nor do they nessecarily represent the majority under MILLIONS.

The polls on these forums did that fairly well.

Using something as evidence of something you believe doesn't make my point any less true.

Certainly. You have a point.
But the very fact that the game didn't even manage to sell a million on any platform should tell you something.
They were quick to celebrate "a million sales", but all platforms combined.

[Dragoonlordz]

Ottemis wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Ottemis wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Instead of moaning and trying to bring in the action RPG and action based players into Biowares fanbase (which they already had with ME) by changing DA which was more cRPG in style into another action RPG. They should of viewed it from the standpoint of both together one action one cRPG between the two you had a larger audience than merging the two into the same style. Common sense applies imho here. The reason why DA2 direction will not be any more successfull than ME and certainly not as successfull as having both action ME and cRPG DA bringing in more than one fanbase and sales when combined is now you have both action RPG so your relying on just one type of fanbase. As shown with these forums the majority of cRPG fans here and DAO fans are not happy that their cRPG is now a action RPG (just like ME series only less quality).

The people talking about it are not the voice of the mayority per say. Did more then half of the people that purchased DAO that reside on these forums voice opinion that DA2's direction was a bad move? Afaik not that I would know.
If a few scream loudest, it doesn't make them the majority nor do they nessecarily represent the majority under MILLIONS.

The polls on these forums did that fairly well.

Using something as evidence of something you believe doesn't make my point any less true.

We don't know what outside these forums people like or don't they clearly don't care to come here and talk about it, but for that we can rely on sales figures and those are down and in decline at a shocking high pace compared to DAO over A to B time periods. But yes as forum based the polls do show that most people prefer DAO to DA2. There are exceptions to some people naturally will like it but there is always is that element in everything.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 29 mai 2011 - 03:27 .

[Tshuman]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Tshuman wrote...

Sorry to burst all of your bubbles who proclaim DA:O a  succes but it wasn't in terms of sales yes but it wasn't a succes in terms of gameplay. Look at ign's article about DAII changed things. The stats are oustanding. I might not like achievements on the xbox 360 but they tell you something. Many people didn't even complete DA:O. Many of them played a little and quit. DAII changed this for a reason because they new if they left DAII like DA:O they wouldn't even probably sell a million copies.  DAII did something right to make it a succes with the flaws and that is changing the way it works. Bioware was trying to change the mold and think outside the box and many of you disagree well thats fine. The problem is the irrational thinking you have. Developers need to make great games but to do that they need to makes sales. If they made another game just like DA:O it would have flopped and we probably wouldn't get another DA.  What they did is appeal to a wider market and it was success. I believe they did the right thing and I like both games but I played DAII more than DA:O. 

If you want to see an example of a company who abondens everything that makes the first game great go look at LIonhead Studios and the Fable series. They don't listen to their fans and rush games even worse. Bioware listens to us and tries to keep things people like while adjusting and adding new features that suit the game that bring in more people.

Sorry to 'burst your bubble' but DA was a highly successfull selling title based on what it was and DA2 is not as successfull as it stands right now and never will be given the vast decline in sales over weeks since launch. You can claim one review is right and others wrong doesn'tr change fact all reviews are merely opinions, sales are what matter and show the evidence of success. You wish about the bolded part as in reality it would not have happened you can live in your fantasy world of "could of, would of, might have" but the reality says different. Sounds to me your the one in the bubble princess.

Well said, and not only that but the majority of the feedback IRT DA2 is mostly negative, as much as a few want to pretend that isn't the case. It takes a few minutes of looking on the intratubes to see that this is the case.

\\

The feedback on this forum yes but this forum is only a small number of people. Not everyone that plays this game goes to this forum,metacritic or whatever else on the internet. We are a small portion.

Look at the Mass Effect for an example and the femshep group. They proclaim that there are more femsheps players but not true. Stats have shown more people play Male Shep. The forums are only a small slice of the people who play the game.

Many praise Dragon 2 on the things done right with its flaws and two million copies isn't bad. I think if it came out on the holiday season it would have done more like DA:O. Also the  advertising was different this time showing what the game is really like not the awful advertising DA:O had that mislead many people.

Modifié par Tshuman, 29 mai 2011 - 03:28 .

[Yrkoon]

Tshuman wrote...
 Many people didn't even complete DA:O. Many of them played a little and quit. DAII changed this

More than half of DA2 players didn't finish DA2.

Link:

According to an Xbox 360  achievement aggregator only an estimated 52% of players received the achievement for witnessing the end of the game; whilst as many as 10% of total players earned fewer than five achievements.

^ More than HALF  of the  players didn't even finish DA2.   And this is significant to point out, because "people getting turned off and quitting" happens to be the  CORE of Mike Laidlaw's arguments  of why   they had to "simplify" things for DA2.  Well?  after all  of Bioware's 'streamlining"  efforts... people STILL  put the game down and quit playing... in droves.  More than HALF in fact.

Epic friggin fail.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 29 mai 2011 - 04:01 .

[Ottemis]

Lord_Valandil wrote...
Certainly. You have a point.
But the very fact that the game didn't even manage to sell a million on any platform should tell you something.
They were quick to celebrate "a million sales", but all platforms combined.

Aside from the backlash from the hardcore fans that didn't like the direction DA2 went in it was ALSO a broken game.
Not good.
Removing one of the reasons for complaint could result in an entirely different outcome, because it's cross-genre appeal would also be significantly improved upon, if done right.

Modifié par Ottemis, 29 mai 2011 - 03:29 .

[Nerdage]

Aaleel wrote...

nerdage wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

But if the game was a universal success for critics and fans, why completely overhaul it?

It's almost as though they have a motive beyond commercial success for making some of these decisions... Like perhaps they thought they were for the better... But that would imply they have minds of their own, that they aren't mindless slaves of a corporate empire, and that they actually care about games. But that can't be true, can it?!

Yes it makes total sense to make a game that everyone loved, and somehow think that makes them slaves of the corporate empire.  Slaves of the corporate empire would do something like rushing out an unfinished product to capitalize on the success of a previous product as quickly as possible.  But that's not what happened, is it? 

The idea that they completely overhauled a lot of the game because they were lazy and wanted to capitalize on the IP makes no sense. The easy path would clearly have been to take Origins, put some sprinkles on it, slap a "2" on the box and cash in. Time really wasn't on their side and implementation suffered heavily as a result but they tried to do something better and I respect the effort.

[Lumikki]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm not but these forums and sales are backing up my claim I feel.

What you mean?

If you mean DA2 sales, what you expect, DA2 has few serius design problem, even without consider what type of game it is. So, of course the sales are lower, if you make mistakes in game design. Don't draw conclusion that sales are down just because game direction, they can be down also because game design mistakes.

As for Biowares general game design direction, hard to know where it goes. As far I have seen they listen very well they customer base. They may not agree with everyting. I think they little bit over do changes, like too many changes same time. It maybe because they want to try new stuff as making every game different enough. Hard to know.

Modifié par Lumikki, 29 mai 2011 - 03:33 .

[Ottemis]

@Dragoonlordz
Generally it holds true that people that try something and hate it are more likely to be vocal about it and find mediums to voice that opinion then people who tried something and liked it.

[Tshuman]

Ottemis wrote...

Lord_Valandil wrote...
Certainly. You have a point.
But the very fact that the game didn't even manage to sell a million on any platform should tell you something.
They were quick to celebrate "a million sales", but all platforms combined.

Aside from the backlash from the hardcore fans that didn't like the direction DA2 went in it was ALSO a broken game.
Not good.
Removing one of the reasons for complaint could result in an entirely different outcome, because it's cross-genre appeal would also be significantly improved upon, if done right.

I agree because mass effect did this and I see that rpgs can't just be rpgs anymore. That market is dying slowly. They need to evolve to include other genres whic bioware is trying. Will they succede at all times no but they are learning.

DAII should have taken more time yes and it could have executed this perfectly.

Modifié par Tshuman, 29 mai 2011 - 03:32 .

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Tshuman wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Tshuman wrote...

Sorry to burst all of your bubbles who proclaim DA:O a  succes but it wasn't in terms of sales yes but it wasn't a succes in terms of gameplay. Look at ign's article about DAII changed things. The stats are oustanding. I might not like achievements on the xbox 360 but they tell you something. Many people didn't even complete DA:O. Many of them played a little and quit. DAII changed this for a reason because they new if they left DAII like DA:O they wouldn't even probably sell a million copies.  DAII did something right to make it a succes with the flaws and that is changing the way it works. Bioware was trying to change the mold and think outside the box and many of you disagree well thats fine. The problem is the irrational thinking you have. Developers need to make great games but to do that they need to makes sales. If they made another game just like DA:O it would have flopped and we probably wouldn't get another DA.  What they did is appeal to a wider market and it was success. I believe they did the right thing and I like both games but I played DAII more than DA:O. 

If you want to see an example of a company who abondens everything that makes the first game great go look at LIonhead Studios and the Fable series. They don't listen to their fans and rush games even worse. Bioware listens to us and tries to keep things people like while adjusting and adding new features that suit the game that bring in more people.

Sorry to 'burst your bubble' but DA was a highly successfull selling title based on what it was and DA2 is not as successfull as it stands right now and never will be given the vast decline in sales over weeks since launch. You can claim one review is right and others wrong doesn'tr change fact all reviews are merely opinions, sales are what matter and show the evidence of success. You wish about the bolded part as in reality it would not have happened you can live in your fantasy world of "could of, would of, might have" but the reality says different. Sounds to me your the one in the bubble princess.

Well said, and not only that but the majority of the feedback IRT DA2 is mostly negative, as much as a few want to pretend that isn't the case. It takes a few minutes of looking on the intratubes to see that this is the case.

The feedback on this forum yes but this forum is only a small number of people. Not everyone that plays this game goes to this forum,metacritic or whatever else on the internet. We are a small portion.

Look at the Mass Effect for an example and the femshep group. They proclaim that there are more femsheps players but not true. Stats have shown more people play Male Shep. The forums are only a small slice of the people who play the game.

Many praise Dragon 2 on the things done right with its flaws and two million copies isn't bad. I think if it came out on the holiday season it would have done more like DA:O. Also the  advertising was different this time showing what the game is really like not the awful advertising DA:O had that mislead many people.

I wasn't refering to just this forum. Anytime I've seen a DA2 news thread on any gaming site, 99% of the comments are negative, that it was rushed, not as good as Origins etc.  It's not just on BSN that this is the case, its just about anywhere on the net talking about DA2.

To be honest I would say DA2's marketing was far more misleading with the "your choices matter" and "push a button something awesome happens" Because I saw very little awesome in any aspect of DA2.

Modifié par CoS Sarah Jinstar, 29 mai 2011 - 03:36 .

[Lord_Valandil]

Tshuman wrote...

Ottemis wrote...

Lord_Valandil wrote...
Certainly. You have a point.
But the very fact that the game didn't even manage to sell a million on any platform should tell you something.
They were quick to celebrate "a million sales", but all platforms combined.

Aside from the backlash from the hardcore fans that didn't like the direction DA2 went in it was ALSO a broken game.
Not good.
Removing one of the reasons for complaint could result in an entirely different outcome, because it's cross-genre appeal would also be significantly improved upon, if done right.

I agree because mass effect did this and I see that rpgs can't just be rpgs anymore. That market is dying slowly. They need to evolve to include other genres whic bioware is trying. Will they succede at all times no but they are learning.

DAII should have taken more time yes and it could have executed this perfectly.

As many others have said before me, they should have tried with a new low-budget IP or something to implement their new ideas.
Using DA was a bad move, wasting the opportunity to make something truly epic.

[Ottemis]

Lord_Valandil wrote...
As many others have said before me, they should have tried with a new low-budget IP or something to implement their new ideas.
Using DA was a bad move, wasting the opportunity to make something truly epic.

Maybe yes, but too late now.
If they never planned to give us a classic RPG ala Dragon Age again so soon though, it would seem logical to me they would use the lore and backdrop because it has tons of growing potential.

That's countered by people saying they're riding DAO's succestrain. Fair enough.
Difficult choice, whichever way you spin it.

Modifié par Ottemis, 29 mai 2011 - 03:40 .

[Dragoonlordz]

Tshuman wrote...

Ottemis wrote...

Lord_Valandil wrote...
Certainly. You have a point.
But the very fact that the game didn't even manage to sell a million on any platform should tell you something.
They were quick to celebrate "a million sales", but all platforms combined.

Aside from the backlash from the hardcore fans that didn't like the direction DA2 went in it was ALSO a broken game.
Not good.
Removing one of the reasons for complaint could result in an entirely different outcome, because it's cross-genre appeal would also be significantly improved upon, if done right.

I agree because mass effect did this and I see that rpgs can't just be rpgs anymore. That market is dying slowly. They need to evolve to include other genres whic bioware is trying. Will they succede at all times no but they are learning.

DAII should have taken more time yes and it could have executed this perfectly.

Broken game is nonsense as an excuse in comparrison as DAO also had a vast amount of bugs and glitches and things people didn't quite get upon release. This notion of market is dying is a fallacy and hyperbole. Like i said it's the difference between actual stagnation and "fear of" stagnation, DAO and ME was not stagnating and you have just lost credit for claiming and going down the fear route instead of relying on the reality of what actually happened. Believe it or not RPG is and always will be a niché market and in those markets Biowares ME series and DAO was far from stagnating they were extremely successfull and in no way at all dying. That is why EA even was interested in buying them due to how successfull Bioware RPGs are. Your excuse has no ground to stand on.

... Anyway I better go though your hyperbole and gibberish fantasy of dying genre ticked me off enough to have me post a reply before logging to do some work. Just like how Rinpoch always claims RPGs are a dying breed if you really wish to fall into his group be aware everything he says is taken as nothing more than trolling these days because of how much hyperbole he uses and your statement falls into that same catagory.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 29 mai 2011 - 03:45 .

[Ottemis]

Market dying/not dying: That's both based on assumptions. What we're doing is running around in circles because almost everything hinges on assumptions, it's pretty much pointless isn't it.

Modifié par Ottemis, 29 mai 2011 - 03:43 .

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Ottemis wrote...

Market dying/not dying: That's both based on assumptions. What we're doing is running around in circles because almost everything hinges on assumptions, it's pretty much pointless isn't it.

And the PC market has been "dying" for a decade according to some. Yet looking at sales of PC exclusive titles, you'd never know.

[Lord_Valandil]

I should say that DA2 was pretty much successful in something:
It divided the fanbase.

If they return to DAO roots, then they'll alienate the new audience.
If they follow the new path, they'll ****** off and lose those who still care, even a little bit, like me.

Oh, oh, they dug themselves into a big hole.

[Ottemis]

Lord_Valandil wrote...

I should say that DA2 was pretty much successful in something:
It divided the fanbase.

If they return to DAO roots, then they'll alienate the new audience.
If they follow the new path, they'll ****** off and lose those who still care, even a little bit, like me.

Oh, oh, they dug themselves into a big hole.

Well, I reckon they can upkeep both fanbases, The DAO crowd though would have to logicly still wait a couple of years for a similarly fantastic classic RPG to be spawned seeing productiontime on those.
DA2 doesn't mean the chance of one is shot to the moon forever does it?

Modifié par Ottemis, 29 mai 2011 - 03:51 .

[Dormiglione]

Ottemis wrote...

The people talking about it are not the voice of the mayority per say. Did more then half of the people that purchased DAO that reside on these forums voice opinion that DA2's direction was a bad move? Afaik not that I would know.
If a few scream loudest, it doesn't make them the majority nor do they nessecarily represent the majority under MILLIONS.

And you think that the silent majority approves the direction DA2 went?
Lets assume the silent majority is happy with DA2. I have a couple of questions then.

- Why do sales not reflect it?
- Why are there so many professional critic reviews that give DA2 a mediocre score?
- How its possibly that so a shiny little minority can cause so much noise that article like this came up www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-03-10-biowares-mike-laidlaw-a-defence-of-dragon-age-ii-interview 

Are you really sure that only a little minority is disappointed with DA2? 

[neppakyo]

Lord_Valandil wrote...

I should say that DA2 was pretty much successful in something:
It divided the fanbase.

If they return to DAO roots, then they'll alienate the new audience.
If they follow the new path, they'll ****** off and lose those who still care, even a little bit, like me.

Oh, oh, they dug themselves into a big hole.

Luckily the 'new audience' isn't that large compared to the core. So returning would be fine 

[NKKKK]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Corto81 wrote...

So why, at the same time, do you guys think it has elements that are a barrier to people?
Honest question.

Yes, I do. To use one example, I know that there are people who fire up a game like Origins, see either character generation or a big wall of stats to pick and they immediately turn it off again. I also am cognizant that there are people who see that big wall of stats and get really excited.

I believe that there are more of the former than the latter. It doesn't mean either side is wrong, and it sure as hell doesn't mean we should cut stats, it just means that, perhaps, opening the game with a big wall of them is not ideal.

Peter Molyneux, is that you?