738 réponses à ce sujet

[Ottemis]

Dormiglione wrote...

Ottemis wrote...

The people talking about it are not the voice of the mayority per say. Did more then half of the people that purchased DAO that reside on these forums voice opinion that DA2's direction was a bad move? Afaik not that I would know.
If a few scream loudest, it doesn't make them the majority nor do they nessecarily represent the majority under MILLIONS.

And you think that the silent majority approves the direction DA2 went?
Lets assume the silent majority is happy with DA2. I have a couple of questions then.

- Why do sales not reflect it?
- Why are there so many professional critic reviews that give DA2 a mediocre score?
- How its possibly that so a shiny little minority can cause so much noise that article like this came up www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-03-10-biowares-mike-laidlaw-a-defence-of-dragon-age-ii-interview 

Are you really sure that only a little minority is disappointed with DA2? 

I don't assume anything is nessecarily true, that's the whole friggin point.
I don't have enough info by far to assume anything bar assuming Bioware knows full-well what they're aiming for, which they obviously should. 

Modifié par Ottemis, 29 mai 2011 - 04:02 .

[Lord_Valandil]

Ottemis wrote...

Lord_Valandil wrote...

I should say that DA2 was pretty much successful in something:
It divided the fanbase.

If they return to DAO roots, then they'll alienate the new audience.
If they follow the new path, they'll ****** off and lose those who still care, even a little bit, like me.

Oh, oh, they dug themselves into a big hole.

Well, I reckon they can upkeep both fanbases, The DAO crowd though would have to logicly still wait a couple of years for a similarly fantastic classic RPG to be spawned seeing productiontime on those.
DA2 doesn't mean the chance of one is shot to the moon forever does it?

Not really, but it does mean that now some of us (or many of us) will be more cautious.
DA2 was a blind buy for me. I won't repeat the same for DA3, no matter how good it looks or how many five star reviews it gets (because, truly, reviews like the ones in PC Gamer and The Escapist are a joke).
And that's kinda sad. Because I would really love to trust them and pre-order once again, but after this game I just can't. I'm glad there are some people who liked the game, truly, I'm not exactly happy with the new direction, but it's not like I'd like to see BW crashing and burning.
I still have hope for DA3, but I'm afraid it'll be a fool's hope.

Modifié par Lord_Valandil, 29 mai 2011 - 03:56 .

[DragonRageGT]

Helekanalaith wrote...

I don't want to drag The Witcher 2 into this, but when Geralt is fighting a sword-and-shield target this very situation presents itself. Only when Geralt uses bombs, signs or traps can he make short work of hostiles such as these. Without Geralt's "cross-class skills" the player can often get stuck in long and perhaps tiresome (depending on the player's patience) back and forth fights.

Well, you did. Actually, a well timed and direction-controlled roll when a s/s is about to hit Geralt can put him right behind the enemy, ready to strike and take full advantage of the Assassin perk he may gain at the Prologue! Works better on 1v1. Against a group, the fun is to try the whole set of tools at his disposal, as you mentioned or the game and the gang really can punish us, specially at Insane diff (hardcore).

What I liked about DA2, compared to DAO is that tactics are more useful, have more slots and more options. Although after 5 runs in NM, all it is required for me, really, is my Z button to Zelect all and Focus Fire (sorry, control+A is for MSWord!)

[tmp7704]

Tshuman wrote...

Sorry to burst all of your bubbles who proclaim DA:O a  succes but it wasn't in terms of sales yes but it wasn't a succes in terms of gameplay. Look at ign's article about DAII changed things. The stats are oustanding. I might not like achievements on the xbox 360 but they tell you something. Many people didn't even complete DA:O. Many of them played a little and quit.

Well, let's see.

http://www.trueachie...spx?gameid=3528

"Champion of Kirkwall (complete Dragon Age 2)

8,955 tracked gamers have this achievement (60% - TA Ratio = 1.29)"

this means 40% of people who played DA2 on xbox360 didn't actually finish it, either. Is that truly "outstanding" or for that matter that much better than DAO? (DAO doesn't have equally handy achievement to track that, but 44% of the players apparently finished the game while accepting Morrigan's deal, meaning the overall number of these who finished DAO is larger than that, as it includes these who didn't accept the deal but still killed the archdemon)

[cursedsei]

Whacka wrote...

Perles75 wrote...

I must say that I also do not agree with Laidlaw's premises of seeing the RPG community as a sort of caste locked in an ivory tower and impatient towards innovation, but that's another story.

I'd love to see where he said that, if he said that at all.

Anyway, I disagree with Laidlaw's mantra. DA2 was in some ways a success, but in more ways a failure. Basically, for me DA2 was this:
Everything that was broken is fixed, everthing that was fixed is broken. (Though some things that were fixed were improved.)
It is a very inaccurate stance, but I can't say anything better without letting the hate get hold of me.

DA2 was indeed rushed. It had many bugs when it was released.

I also think they might want to reimagine some parts of how the DA franchise is going to be. Not reinventing the wheel, of course. More like take all the good things from DAO and DA2 and put both together in a game.

I have to agree. It took me a while, but eventually I fell in love with Origins, not with the combat mind you, but with the story and characters. If I wanted to, any character could perform any job, and the story did a good job of keeping you moving forwards.

Dragon Age 2 on the other hand, has little momentum in its story telling, and now there is no "classes", because essentially the characters are the classes. I have no free reign on what anyone BUT my character is, but serves to be more restricting then. The beginning lacks any oomph, and the forced killing of a sibling without a choice as to who ruins it.
I should be allowed to turn Merril into a healer, Aveline into a 2-hander berserker, Fenris a sword-and-boarder, you get the point. I refuse to use Anders because of the borked (in my opinion) dialogue system. I have no issues with bi/homosexuality, but when I avoid the heart Icons, that should mean I'm not interested and should not be pushed into a corner of 2 heart icons and a heartbreak.

Heck, I still am in the first "act" or so to speak, because I have no interest in the story. There's nothing to urge me forwards, no overarching sense of threat I want to find more about it. As been stated elsewhere, such time should of been used directly at the beginning of the game so that when the sibling dies, I might actually care about it. We're thrust into a situation in which we were supposed to care about someone who dies, but don't, like how Fable 2 tried to make you feel a connection with your mutt companion then kill him off temporarily.

And it would be nice to see the removal of the enemy "bits" thing when they die, seeing them explode is far from a visceral or interesting sight, and I much more loved Origins finisher system. A little bit of time to include more unique finishing moves would of been amazing.
Who wouldn't want to see Hawke impale an enemy on his greatsword, lift em up, then slice em in half?
Or take a giant hammer to an Ogre's kneecaps, then golf-swing right into his jaw?

Modifié par cursedsei, 29 mai 2011 - 04:00 .

[Sister Helen]

cursedsei wrote...

We're thrust into a situation in which we were supposed to care about someone who dies, but don't, like how Fable 2 tried to make you feel a connection with your mutt companion then kill him off temporarily.

Oh!  Bards Tale (I forget the number) did that the best when the Bard's mutt was killed off and then came back as a cute little undead puppy.  "Whose a good little puppy...?"  Awesome!  I sense a Chosen medley around the corner...

[NKKKK]

Sister Helen wrote...

cursedsei wrote...

We're thrust into a situation in which we were supposed to care about someone who dies, but don't, like how Fable 2 tried to make you feel a connection with your mutt companion then kill him off temporarily.

Oh!  Bards Tale (I forget the number) did that the best when the Bard's mutt was killed off and then came back as a cute little undead puppy.  "Whose a good little puppy...?"  Awesome!  I sense a Chosen medley around the corner...

The dog in fable 2 was handled better than Leandra. 

[Hel]

RageGT wrote...

Helekanalaith wrote...

I don't want to drag The Witcher 2 into this, but when Geralt is fighting a sword-and-shield target this very situation presents itself. Only when Geralt uses bombs, signs or traps can he make short work of hostiles such as these. Without Geralt's "cross-class skills" the player can often get stuck in long and perhaps tiresome (depending on the player's patience) back and forth fights.

Well, you did. Actually, a well timed and direction-controlled roll when a s/s is about to hit Geralt can put him right behind the enemy, ready to strike and take full advantage of the Assassin perk he may gain at the Prologue! Works better on 1v1. Against a group, the fun is to try the whole set of tools at his disposal, as you mentioned or the game and the gang really can punish us, specially at Insane diff (hardcore).

True enough. But with the exception of the rogue's backstab ability there's no way for a character in DAII to flank or get behind a hostile in a 1-on-1 fight without having to resort to abilities that render the target temporarily out-of-action.

Modifié par Helekanalaith, 29 mai 2011 - 04:09 .

[Lord_Valandil]

NKKKK wrote...

Sister Helen wrote...

cursedsei wrote...

We're thrust into a situation in which we were supposed to care about someone who dies, but don't, like how Fable 2 tried to make you feel a connection with your mutt companion then kill him off temporarily.

Oh!  Bards Tale (I forget the number) did that the best when the Bard's mutt was killed off and then came back as a cute little undead puppy.  "Whose a good little puppy...?"  Awesome!  I sense a Chosen medley around the corner...

The dog in fable 2 was handled better than Leandra. 

Truly.
I didn't care about what happened with Leandra, even though some thought it was "moving".

[Jsixgun]

Success. I thought it was right classy of the guy.

[Cutlass Jack]

Helekanalaith wrote...

True enough. But with the exception of the rogue's backstab ability there's no way for a character in DAII to flank or get behind a hostile in a 1-on-1 fight without having to resort to abilities that render the target temporarily out-of-action.

Isn't that true for a 1 on 1 fight in nearly any game like this? You need to use your abilites to create the opening. The rogue trees are full of passive and active abilities that that do this. On my rogue playthrough I relied on chain stunning. No flanking required. I took a similar approach in DAO since I like my rogues to face the enemy head-on.

[Persephone]

Lord_Valandil wrote...

NKKKK wrote...

Sister Helen wrote...

cursedsei wrote...

We're thrust into a situation in which we were supposed to care about someone who dies, but don't, like how Fable 2 tried to make you feel a connection with your mutt companion then kill him off temporarily.

Oh!  Bards Tale (I forget the number) did that the best when the Bard's mutt was killed off and then came back as a cute little undead puppy.  "Whose a good little puppy...?"  Awesome!  I sense a Chosen medley around the corner...

The dog in fable 2 was handled better than Leandra. 

Truly.
I didn't care about what happened with Leandra, even though some thought it was "moving".

Having actually BEEN THROUGH losing my mother (And her saying similar things to me shortly before she died), yes it WAS moving to me. Feel free to mock that, if you must. Wait, you already are.......<_<

[Lord_Valandil]

Persephone wrote...

Lord_Valandil wrote...

NKKKK wrote...

Sister Helen wrote...

cursedsei wrote...

We're thrust into a situation in which we were supposed to care about someone who dies, but don't, like how Fable 2 tried to make you feel a connection with your mutt companion then kill him off temporarily.

Oh!  Bards Tale (I forget the number) did that the best when the Bard's mutt was killed off and then came back as a cute little undead puppy.  "Whose a good little puppy...?"  Awesome!  I sense a Chosen medley around the corner...

The dog in fable 2 was handled better than Leandra. 

Truly.
I didn't care about what happened with Leandra, even though some thought it was "moving".

Having actually BEEN THROUGH losing my mother (And her saying similar things to me shortly before she died), yes it WAS moving to me. Feel free to mock that, if you must. Wait, you already are.......<_<

I'm not mocking people who have lost their mother in reality. I'm not that of a ******, despite what you may think.
But come on, the way it was handled wasn't very good. A couple of "boo hoos" and everything's fine later.
Videogames are not quite good to handle emotions, I guess.

[Wulfram]

tmp7704 wrote...
 (DAO doesn't have equally handy achievement to track that, but 44% of the players apparently finished the game while accepting Morrigan's deal, meaning the overall number of these who finished DAO is larger than that, as it includes these who didn't accept the deal but still killed the archdemon)

53% completed the Landsmeet.  50% got the Defender achievement, which is probably a good guide since I believe it unlocks at Fort Drakon and is really easy.

[errant_knight]

I just read Mr. Laidlaw's post, and I have to say that while I don't agree with all of it, and would have liked to see mention of impending changes to the dialogue system, my biggest issue, I really appreciated his post. I can't blame him a bit for stepping back as the personal attacks went WAY too far, and that must have been extremely difficult. I feel better knowing that we have been heard, and and feel a bit more hope than I've felt for a long time. He deserves kudos for coming back and posting when feelings are running so very high. Well spoken, Mr. Laidlaw, and much appreciated.

Those screen shots look great, too.
Griffons...... Yes!

[Solid N7]

RageGT wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

RageGT wrote...

No, meaning he has the same perception of DA2 as I have. DA:O is a Symphonic playing a Masterpiece. DA2 is a midi keyboard playing Lady Gaga!

And the art, really. Origins may not have the best ever design what what they did with elves, darkspawn, zevran, trolls.. would boarder a really bad taste joke if it weren't so so sad!

I did not think DAO was masterpiece of anyting, just normal good game what Bioware has made, that's all. Mostly I did find DAO more like annoying. NO, I don't mean DAO hasn't have good design there too, I do, but masterpiece. Far from it.

If you don't have 10 full completionist playthrough with the game, with all classes, races, origins and builds, don't think your opinion matters to some maniac like me that after 20 full completionist runs still wants more. DAO is another league compared to DA2. Much much superior! I can't finish my 6th run with DA2 because it makes me sick after 5. And I bet many people didn't think Van Gog, Picasso, Beatles or Led Zep are masterpieces of anything too.

20 full completionist runs wtf???? for god sake get a life!!!!

[neppakyo]

Lord_Valandil wrote...
Truly.
I didn't care about what happened with Leandra, even though some thought it was "moving".

Same here. It was laughably done, as there was no time or point for any kind of emotional attachment to hawkes family. The shuffling stiched together 'corpses bride' made me laugh more than anything.

And a videogame mother is not the same as a real one.

[neppakyo]

Solid N7 wrote...

20 full completionist runs wtf???? for god sake get a life!!!!

The game is 2 years old, buddy. Go and do something useful instead of telling people to get a life.

[Lord_Valandil]

neppakyo wrote...

Lord_Valandil wrote...
Truly.
I didn't care about what happened with Leandra, even though some thought it was "moving".

Same here. It was laughably done, as there was no time or point for any kind of emotional attachment to hawkes family. The shuffling stiched together 'corpses bride' made me laugh more than anything.

And a videogame mother is not the same as a real one.

Hawke's family barely has any impact on the story, as his/her sister/brother and mother aren't in the game most of the time.
After the "corpse bride" scene, we got a conversation with ol' uncle and then "Oh, I feel better now, time to kill stuff again".

And yet again, I'm not making fun of anyone who have lost a family member in reality. I have lost family members and I certainly don't laugh about it.

[Hel]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Helekanalaith wrote...

True enough. But with the exception of the rogue's backstab ability there's no way for a character in DAII to flank or get behind a hostile in a 1-on-1 fight without having to resort to abilities that render the target temporarily out-of-action.

Isn't that true for a 1 on 1 fight in nearly any game like this? You need to use your abilites to create the opening. The rogue trees are full of passive and active abilities that that do this. On my rogue playthrough I relied on chain stunning. No flanking required. I took a similar approach in DAO since I like my rogues to face the enemy head-on.

From a rogue's point of view I can imagine that it'd be easier to stun an opponent, yes. But given the warrior's abilities, I'd say "no". Performing a pommel strike or shield bash on an opponent that's using a shield -- how does that work? The pommel strike will be deflected by the shield, while the shield bash will hit the shield as well.

My original post was in regards to cross-class combo's and how the player's motivation to use them would change if hostile opponens were more defensive. Unlike how it currently works where you can simply keep bashing their heads in.

[Persephone]

Lord_Valandil wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Lord_Valandil wrote...

NKKKK wrote...

Sister Helen wrote...

cursedsei wrote...

We're thrust into a situation in which we were supposed to care about someone who dies, but don't, like how Fable 2 tried to make you feel a connection with your mutt companion then kill him off temporarily.

Oh!  Bards Tale (I forget the number) did that the best when the Bard's mutt was killed off and then came back as a cute little undead puppy.  "Whose a good little puppy...?"  Awesome!  I sense a Chosen medley around the corner...

The dog in fable 2 was handled better than Leandra. 

Truly.
I didn't care about what happened with Leandra, even though some thought it was "moving".

Having actually BEEN THROUGH losing my mother (And her saying similar things to me shortly before she died), yes it WAS moving to me. Feel free to mock that, if you must. Wait, you already are.......<_<

I'm not mocking people who have lost their mother in reality. I'm not that of a ******, despite what you may think.
But come on, the way it was handled wasn't very good. A couple of "boo hoos" and everything's fine later.
Videogames are not quite good to handle emotions, I guess.

It worked just fine for me, as it was moving and a major catalyst for my so far neutral Rogue Hawke to be completely anti-mage and to support the templars fully. I loved the condolences (LI and especially Aveline) and these are the only scenes where Gamlen truly shines IMO.

I was more moved by this than by Mama Cousland. (And that moved me too)

But yes, what works for one, need not work for everyone.

Modifié par Persephone, 29 mai 2011 - 04:48 .

[Lumikki]

Dormiglione wrote...

And you think that the silent majority approves the direction DA2 went?
Lets assume the silent majority is happy with DA2. I have a couple of questions then.

Most of people are silent, are they happy or not doesn't change that, because they can be both.

- Why do sales not reflect it?
- Why are there so many professional critic reviews that give DA2 a mediocre score?
- How its possibly that so a shiny little minority can cause so much noise that article like this came up www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-03-10-biowares-mike-laidlaw-a-defence-of-dragon-age-ii-interview

You assume tha bad review or sales is JUST because games direction, when in my opinion, it's more about game design mistakes. Read what people are really complaining. My point is, not every complainer is complaining same thing, so don't assume the complains are all direction related. Look one of the main problem re-used maps, what that has to do games direction? It's general design problem.

Are you really sure that only a little minority is disappointed with DA2? 

No-one is saying one way or other. People should not assume that "majority" is allways in they side. That's the point, don't assume anything. People will ALLWAYS find support to they assumptions, while they often dismiss the points what doesn't support them. It doesn't mater what direction, hate or love.

Modifié par Lumikki, 29 mai 2011 - 05:01 .

[Aaleel]

neppakyo wrote...

Lord_Valandil wrote...
Truly.
I didn't care about what happened with Leandra, even though some thought it was "moving".

Same here. It was laughably done, as there was no time or point for any kind of emotional attachment to hawkes family. The shuffling stiched together 'corpses bride' made me laugh more than anything.

And a videogame mother is not the same as a real one.

The problem was that they did not make her a videogame mom.  They never developed the family system.  Basically no quests that involved your family, you did birthright and that was pretty much it.  You lived with your mother for two acts almost and hardly never interacted with her.  You came home and intercated with your dog all the time, but never your own mother.

You lost your first sibling without even a conversatio with them.

Then you lose the other and never see them until the end.   Why not let you go visit Bethany in the circle to see the quality of her life?  Maybe that would have some influence on your endgame decision.  They just assumed you would be attached to these people.

The Cousland Family was done much better and greatly shorter amount of time to work with.

Modifié par Aaleel, 29 mai 2011 - 04:55 .

[Aaleel]

Ack double post.

Modifié par Aaleel, 29 mai 2011 - 04:54 .

[Ottemis]

Persephone wrote...
It worked just fine for me, as it was moving and a major catalyst for my so far neutral Rogue Hawke to be completely anti-mage and to support the templars fully. I loved the condolences (LI and especially Aveline) and these are the only scenes where Gamlen truly shines IMO.

I was more moved by this than by Mama Cousland. (And that moved me too)

But yes, what works for one, need not work for everyone.

^ Same.