738 réponses à ce sujet

[Lord_Valandil]

Persephone wrote...
It worked just fine for me, as it was moving and a major catalyst for my so far neutral Rogue Hawke to be completely anti-mage and to support the templars fully. I loved the condolences (LI and especially Aveline) and these are the only scenes where Gamlen truly shines IMO.

I was more moved by this than by Mama Cousland. (And that moved me too)

But yes, what works for one, need not work for everyone.

Perhaps it would have worked for me if the writers have focused more in making the player attached to Hawke's family. You know, by not making 'em disappear or dying early in the game.
After her demise, a funeral scene would have been wonderful.
There wasn't a real "sense of loss", at least for me.
As I didn't care about the character, I surely didn't care about her death.

[Persephone]

Aaleel wrote...

neppakyo wrote...

Lord_Valandil wrote...
Truly.
I didn't care about what happened with Leandra, even though some thought it was "moving".

Same here. It was laughably done, as there was no time or point for any kind of emotional attachment to hawkes family. The shuffling stiched together 'corpses bride' made me laugh more than anything.

And a videogame mother is not the same as a real one.

The problem was that they did not make her a videogame mom.  They never developed the family system.  Basically no quests that involved your family, you did birthright and that was pretty much it.  You lived with your mother for two acts almost and hardly never interacted with her.  You came home and intercated with your dog all the time, but never your own mother.

You lost your first sibling without even a conversatio with them.

Then you lose the other and never see them until the end.   Why not let you go visit Bethany in the circle to see the quality of her life?  Maybe that would have some influence on your endgame decision.  They just assumed you would be attached to these people.

The Cousland Family was done much better and greatly shorter amount of time to work with.

There were 2-3 non quest related conversations at the mansion with her. Granted, they should have done more and I'd have liked that. I esp. don't understand why you cannot visit Bethany/Carver at the Gallows when both Gamlen and Leandra state that they are doing so frequently.

But that does not take away from "All that remains" being one of my favorite quests ever. It made me friggin' cry.

[Cutlass Jack]

Persephone wrote...

It worked just fine for me, as it was moving and a major catalyst for my so far neutral Rogue Hawke to be completely anti-mage and to support the templars fully. I loved the condolences (LI and especially Aveline) and these are the only scenes where Gamlen truly shines IMO.

I was more moved by this than by Mama Cousland. (And that moved me too)

But yes, what works for one, need not work for everyone.

Having lived through something similar myself, it was extremely true to life. Most of the mourning happens off camera as evidenced by your LI coming to try to drag you out of your funk after you've locked yourself away in your home for an undetermined period. Being able to lash out verbally in anger at your LI and Aveline for things that weren't their fault was also realistic.

But had they kept it on camera you'd have many more complaints that their manly, heartless Hawkes were forced to cry like Nancy-boys. Much like the fades to black in sex scenes, sometimes its best left to the player's imagination as to what happens off-camera.

[Ottemis]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

Lord_Valandil wrote...

Persephone wrote...
It worked just fine for me, as it was moving and a major catalyst for my so far neutral Rogue Hawke to be completely anti-mage and to support the templars fully. I loved the condolences (LI and especially Aveline) and these are the only scenes where Gamlen truly shines IMO.

I was more moved by this than by Mama Cousland. (And that moved me too)

But yes, what works for one, need not work for everyone.

Perhaps it would have worked for me if the writers have focused more in making the player attached to Hawke's family. You know, by not making 'em disappear or dying early in the game.
After her demise, a funeral scene would have been wonderful.
There wasn't a real "sense of loss", at least for me.
As I didn't care about the character, I surely didn't care about her death.

Same here. If the game had started in Lothering before they flee, I might've cared. If we got to spend a little more time with her, I might've cared. Sadly, I didn't.

I agree they could have made more work of the intro, which arguably would have made the bonding easier for some.
While I didn't need 'more', I can recognize the intro could have been alot better.

Modifié par Ottemis, 29 mai 2011 - 05:02 .

[Persephone]

Lord_Valandil wrote...

Persephone wrote...
It worked just fine for me, as it was moving and a major catalyst for my so far neutral Rogue Hawke to be completely anti-mage and to support the templars fully. I loved the condolences (LI and especially Aveline) and these are the only scenes where Gamlen truly shines IMO.

I was more moved by this than by Mama Cousland. (And that moved me too)

But yes, what works for one, need not work for everyone.

Perhaps it would have worked for me if the writers have focused more in making the player attached to Hawke's family. You know, by not making 'em disappear or dying early in the game.
After her demise, a funeral scene would have been wonderful.
There wasn't a real "sense of loss", at least for me.
As I didn't care about the character, I surely didn't care about her death.

I'd have liked a funeral scene too. But I loved the scenes with Gamlen, the LI and especially Aveline. Aveline's condolences were worth more than 10 funeral cutscenes to me. And yes, I did care about her death. I would have in any case, just as I cared about the other innocent women Quentin butchered to recreate his wife.

[Lord_Valandil]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Most of the mourning happens off camera.

Much like the fades to black in sex scenes, sometimes its best left to the player's imagination as to what happens off-camera.

No. It isn't

[Persephone]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Persephone wrote...

It worked just fine for me, as it was moving and a major catalyst for my so far neutral Rogue Hawke to be completely anti-mage and to support the templars fully. I loved the condolences (LI and especially Aveline) and these are the only scenes where Gamlen truly shines IMO.

I was more moved by this than by Mama Cousland. (And that moved me too)

But yes, what works for one, need not work for everyone.

Having lived through something similar myself, it was extremely true to life. Most of the mourning happens off camera as evidenced by your LI coming to try to drag you out of your funk after you've locked yourself away in your home for an undetermined period. Being able to lash out verbally in anger at your LI and Aveline for things that weren't their fault was also realistic.

+100 Exactly and precisely.

[JabbaDaHutt30]

Lord_Valandil wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Most of the mourning happens off camera.

Much like the fades to black in sex scenes, sometimes its best left to the player's imagination as to what happens off-camera.

No. It isn't

Seconded.

[Ottemis]

Autolycus wrote...

But that was because of personal reasons Pers...not because it was terribly well done...

That's not mutually exclusive.

[Persephone]

Lord_Valandil wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Most of the mourning happens off camera.

Much like the fades to black in sex scenes, sometimes its best left to the player's imagination as to what happens off-camera.

No. It isn't

Yes it is in my opinion. I do not need everything spelled out to me, esp. not sex scenes. IMHO the scene with Rhett carrying his Scarlett upstairs -> Fade to black in "Gone with the Wind" is sexier than any sex scene in TW2. Or any sex scene, really.

[BeefoTheBold]

Perles75 wrote...

A word of caution: this thread is meant for a constructive discussion, not for ranting. Trolls and prejudiced haters please abstain.

What is the Laidlaw mantra, you may ask? In his many interviews and interventions, the last of which you can find in the "Thank you" thread here, Mike Laidlaw has always stressed a central point of his "Dragon Age vision", a vision that fully implemented in DA2: the aim of reaching a wider audience, beyond the typical RPG public. This aim was pursued by downplaying (or tuning down, sorry for my english!) some aspects of the classical RPG videogame and putting more stress on others, namely on a more combat-oriented game dynamics (with, in addition, a special care in personal relatioships between the player character and his/her companions).

So my question is: did he succeed in his purpose? did he actually reach a "wider audience" with DA2?

In my opinion: the answer is no. I believe that this new course for the "fantasy RPG as imagined by Bioware" is a failure. The expected new public was not attracted in large part (sales and reception show that), and as a bonus they alienated part of their fanbase.
I must say that I also do not agree with Laidlaw's premises of seeing the RPG community as a sort of caste locked in an ivory tower and impatient towards innovation, but that's another story.

So, I'm curious to hear about your opinion: do you think of the Laidlaw mantra as a failure or as a success? do you think that they should rethink their way of imagining the DA games, or it was just a problem of rushing the DA2 development?

In my opinion you are correct. It's certainly possible to appeal to multiple audiences simultaneously in some circumstances. (Such as how the Mass Effect franchise is appealing to both shooter fans and rpg fans)

But I do not think that DA2 managed to both reach a wider audience and make their existing audience very happy.

I think it has been a very polarizing game.

[Persephone]

Ottemis wrote...

Autolycus wrote...

But that was because of personal reasons Pers...not because it was terribly well done...

That's not mutually exclusive.

Yup. Not every movie/game/book where a family member dies will get to me. Leandra's death did however.

[JabbaDaHutt30]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Persephone wrote...

It worked just fine for me, as it was moving and a major catalyst for my so far neutral Rogue Hawke to be completely anti-mage and to support the templars fully. I loved the condolences (LI and especially Aveline) and these are the only scenes where Gamlen truly shines IMO.

I was more moved by this than by Mama Cousland. (And that moved me too)

But yes, what works for one, need not work for everyone.

Having lived through something similar myself, it was extremely true to life. Most of the mourning happens off camera as evidenced by your LI coming to try to drag you out of your funk after you've locked yourself away in your home for an undetermined period. Being able to lash out verbally in anger at your LI and Aveline for things that weren't their fault was also realistic.

But had they kept it on camera you'd have many more complaints that their manly, heartless Hawkes were forced to cry like Nancy-boys. Much like the fades to black in sex scenes, sometimes its best left to the player's imagination as to what happens off-camera.

Your entire life... is caught on tape? Suddenly, I'm not too surprised about the whole pirate gig anymore.

[Lord_Valandil]

Persephone wrote...

Lord_Valandil wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Most of the mourning happens off camera.

Much like the fades to black in sex scenes, sometimes its best left to the player's imagination as to what happens off-camera.

No. It isn't

Yes it is in my opinion. I do not need everything spelled out to me, esp. not sex scenes. IMHO the scene with Rhett carrying his Scarlett upstairs -> Fade to black in "Gone with the Wind" is sexier than any sex scene in TW2. Or any sex scene, really.

Videogames, same as movies, shouldn't work like that.
It's like saying, take the third movie of "The Lord of the Rings". Would it have been good to leave the battle of the Pelennor fields happen off-camera and then have some character saying "Oh, it was a BIIIG battle, and King Theoden died!".
If I want to use my imagination, then I'll read a book or write my own stories. Having to use it to fill in the gaps of the writers' lazy story isn't quite my thing. And unlike most of you, I don't find sex to be dirty or pornographic, but that's another thing.

Modifié par Lord_Valandil, 29 mai 2011 - 05:10 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

My problem with Leandra's death is not so much post-death (I thought it was done well). It's rather prior. I did not feel that connected with Leandra for the scene to have as much impact as it should. It was adequate imo, but it could have been more than that.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 29 mai 2011 - 05:10 .

[BeefoTheBold]

Persephone wrote...

Ottemis wrote...

Autolycus wrote...

But that was because of personal reasons Pers...not because it was terribly well done...

That's not mutually exclusive.

Yup. Not every movie/game/book where a family member dies will get to me. Leandra's death did however.

For me it was the opposite. It didn't get to me because not enough effort was put in getting me emotionally connected with either her or Hawke. Just as Hawke didn't feel like he was "me", his mother's death didn't really make me feel like I'd really lost anything. After the very early game, all she did was hang around the house.

As a consequence, because of the lack of interaction, her death kind of felt like a cheap way to try and introduce gray shades. "See? Mages ARE bad. They killed your mother!"

[JabbaDaHutt30]

Persephone wrote...

Lord_Valandil wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Most of the mourning happens off camera.

Much like the fades to black in sex scenes, sometimes its best left to the player's imagination as to what happens off-camera.

No. It isn't

Yes it is in my opinion. I do not need everything spelled out to me, esp. not sex scenes. IMHO the scene with Rhett carrying his Scarlett upstairs -> Fade to black in "Gone with the Wind" is sexier than any sex scene in TW2. Or any sex scene, really.

Cite another classic so we can all get a better sense of your apparent sophistication please.

Modifié par JabbaDaHutt30, 29 mai 2011 - 05:11 .

[Persephone]

Lord_Valandil wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Lord_Valandil wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Most of the mourning happens off camera.

Much like the fades to black in sex scenes, sometimes its best left to the player's imagination as to what happens off-camera.

No. It isn't

Yes it is in my opinion. I do not need everything spelled out to me, esp. not sex scenes. IMHO the scene with Rhett carrying his Scarlett upstairs -> Fade to black in "Gone with the Wind" is sexier than any sex scene in TW2. Or any sex scene, really.

Videogames, same as movies, shouldn't work like that.
And unlikely most of you, I don't find sex to be dirty or pornographic, but that's another thing.

"Gone With The Wind" did just fine, you know?

And don't put words in my mouth. I do not find sex to be dirty or pornographic . 

[Ottemis]

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...
Cite another classic so we can all get a better sense of your apparent sophistication please.

>< Dude, why.

Modifié par Ottemis, 29 mai 2011 - 05:13 .

[Lord_Valandil]

Persephone wrote...

Lord_Valandil wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Lord_Valandil wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Most of the mourning happens off camera.

Much like the fades to black in sex scenes, sometimes its best left to the player's imagination as to what happens off-camera.

No. It isn't

Yes it is in my opinion. I do not need everything spelled out to me, esp. not sex scenes. IMHO the scene with Rhett carrying his Scarlett upstairs -> Fade to black in "Gone with the Wind" is sexier than any sex scene in TW2. Or any sex scene, really.

Videogames, same as movies, shouldn't work like that.
And unlikely most of you, I don't find sex to be dirty or pornographic, but that's another thing.

"Gone With The Wind" did just fine, you know?

And don't put words in my mouth. I do not find sex to be dirty or pornographic . 

I wasn't referring to you. But to many people who say that fade-to-black is better than showing the oh-so-dirty scene.
Perhaps Gone with the Wind did just fine, but it doesn't mean that EVERYTHING ELSE will work just as fine.

[Persephone]

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Lord_Valandil wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Most of the mourning happens off camera.

Much like the fades to black in sex scenes, sometimes its best left to the player's imagination as to what happens off-camera.

No. It isn't

Yes it is in my opinion. I do not need everything spelled out to me, esp. not sex scenes. IMHO the scene with Rhett carrying his Scarlett upstairs -> Fade to black in "Gone with the Wind" is sexier than any sex scene in TW2. Or any sex scene, really.

Cite another classic so we can all get a better sense of your apparent sophistication please.

Susanna's death in "Raintree County".

[Aaleel]

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Lord_Valandil wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Most of the mourning happens off camera.

Much like the fades to black in sex scenes, sometimes its best left to the player's imagination as to what happens off-camera.

No. It isn't

Yes it is in my opinion. I do not need everything spelled out to me, esp. not sex scenes. IMHO the scene with Rhett carrying his Scarlett upstairs -> Fade to black in "Gone with the Wind" is sexier than any sex scene in TW2. Or any sex scene, really.

Cite another classic so we can all get a better sense of your apparent sophistication please.

Man can't we have a discussion without taking personal shots at people.

[Persephone]

Lord_Valandil wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Lord_Valandil wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Lord_Valandil wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Most of the mourning happens off camera.

Much like the fades to black in sex scenes, sometimes its best left to the player's imagination as to what happens off-camera.

No. It isn't

Yes it is in my opinion. I do not need everything spelled out to me, esp. not sex scenes. IMHO the scene with Rhett carrying his Scarlett upstairs -> Fade to black in "Gone with the Wind" is sexier than any sex scene in TW2. Or any sex scene, really.

Videogames, same as movies, shouldn't work like that.
And unlikely most of you, I don't find sex to be dirty or pornographic, but that's another thing.

"Gone With The Wind" did just fine, you know?

And don't put words in my mouth. I do not find sex to be dirty or pornographic . 

I wasn't referring to you. But to many people who say that fade-to-black is better than showing the oh-so-dirty scene.
Perhaps Gone with the Wind did just fine, but it doesn't mean that EVERYTHING ELSE will work just as fine.

I'm definitely with you there. To use TW2 as an example again......the scene in the elven garden......lovely to look at but nada emotional impact for me. BUT: Another love scene in Act II not involving Triss.....it was sensual, dramatically moving and done just right IMO.