738 réponses à ce sujet

[Ottemis]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ottemis wrote...
As to the conclusion: We're often blinded by blind faith in someone who maybe can't even deliver because it's a comforting thought, especially in situations where some would claim all hope to be gone.

In otherwords, idiocy as the tale was there to dismiss the idea that Hawke is important and that the entire point is that he tried to prevent two conflicts and failed miserably.

Yea, maybe blind faith led to the conclusion that Hawke can save the world. It doesn't make it any less idiotic and Cassandra, any less stupid.

Often enough, someone believed to be able to make a difference even if they didn't before, CAN make a difference, just because enough people believe they can. Even with something like that being a distant possibility, if times are desperate enough, that's a straw to grasp.

Modifié par Ottemis, 29 mai 2011 - 05:41 .

[In Exile]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Eh, the entire premise of Varric telling the story did not make that much sense to me as it needed Cassandra to be a grade A moron to think that Hawke is some mastermind who engineered all this. And you'd think that Varric's tale would remove this pre-conception, but the idiot now thinks that Hawke can save the world for some reason, even when his resume has him failing to prevent two much smaller conflicts!

Bah screw it.

They should have just had Hawke narrate, and narrate after the fact. Like Alpha Protocol. If they wanted narration. They wanted to use Varric because Bioware is still, at their core, trying to make RPGs (they just assume very different things that other players sometimes) so they still want to create a distance between what is being said about the PC and what the PC does.

The probem isn't that Cassandra needs to be an idiot to think Hawke is a mastermind (there could be lots of reasons and rumours for this).

The problem is the player has no reason to believe that Hawke was a mastermind that started the conflict. We're finding out the truth about something we didn't know (the legend vs. the actual story).

With regard to Hawke being able to stop the conflict, though, what I think the rationale turns on is that Hawke, being at the centre of this whole mess would have a great deal of influence with one side or the other. Except I can't see how that makes sense for the templars. He killed lots of mages... so they'll listen? Whereas with the mages you could at least say he was an inspirational figure.

[Persephone]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Alistairlover94 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Eh, the entire premise of Varric telling the story did not make that much sense to me as it needed Cassandra to be a grade A moron to think that Hawke is some mastermind who engineered all this. And you'd think that Varric's tale would remove this pre-conception, but the idiot now thinks that Hawke can save the world for some reason, even when his resume has him failing to prevent two much smaller conflicts!

Bah screw it.

Hawke's primary skill is killing, being a mindless mercenary. Not being a leader like The Warden.

My Canon Lady Hawke wasn't a mindless mercenary and my Canon Warden certainly wasn't a leader. (You read my story, right? XD)

I did read it!(excellent writing, BTW).

And my Aeducan was a great commander of armies. Her self-confidence, and skill in battle inspired fear in the hearts of her foes, and courage in the hearts of her allies. Hawke is just the muscle for the entire game. She gets hired to protect Bartrand and Varric, she has to take out the Tal-Vashoth, she has to take out the apostates for Meredith etc, etc.

How is it different to: Being hired to get rid of the undead, hired to kill your way through to the urn, hired by brother dearest/Harrowmont to eliminate Jarvia and her carta & kill your way through the DR to find Branka, being hired by Zathrian to slay Witherfang......?

Modifié par Persephone, 29 mai 2011 - 05:42 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ottemis wrote...
Often enough, someone believed to be able to make a difference even if they didn't before, CAN make a difference, just because enough people believe they can. Even with something like that being a distant possibility, if times are desperate enough, that's a straw to grasp.

If the straw they want to grasp is a proven failure, then I'll call it idiocy.

Instead of wasting their time, the Seekers should have done something with Meredith a long time ago. Or actually act like an institution and not grasp at straws (failures at that).

If that's what the Chantry can do and these are the people that want to save it, I say let it burn.

[In Exile]

Alistairlover94 wrote...
And my Aeducan was a great commander of armies. Her self-confidence, and skill in battle inspired fear in the hearts of her foes, and courage in the hearts of her allies. Hawke is just the muscle for the entire game. She gets hired to protect Bartrand and Varric, she has to take out the Tal-Vashoth, she has to take out the apostates for Meredith etc, etc.

The thing is (just ignore personal cannont for a second) Bioware doesn't know how not to write someone being an errand runner.

Ignore how you've constructed you Warden for a second, and point out where, exactly, in DA:O the Warden acts like a leader beyond the party (which Hawke, technically, also does). You run errands for every person with the treaty, you run errands to get to Warden's Keep, you run an errand to get to Ostagar, prior to the Landsmeet you run errands for Eamon, and when the landsmeet names you a commander, Riordan & Eamon come up with the plan.

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ottemis wrote...
Often enough, someone believed to be able to make a difference even if they didn't before, CAN make a difference, just because enough people believe they can. Even with something like that being a distant possibility, if times are desperate enough, that's a straw to grasp.

If the straw they want to grasp is a proven failure, then I'll call it idiocy.

Instead of wasting their time, the Seekers should have done something with Meredith a long time ago. Or actually act like an institution and not grasp at straws (failures at that).

If that's what the Chantry can do and these are the people that want to save it, I say let it burn.

Well, I am ASSUMING that they DID try to find the Warden first.........

[Lord_Valandil]

NKKKK wrote...

Lord_Valandil wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Eh, the entire premise of Varric telling the story did not make that much sense to me as it needed Cassandra to be a grade A moron to think that Hawke is some mastermind who engineered all this. And you'd think that Varric's tale would remove this pre-conception, but the idiot now thinks that Hawke can save the world for some reason, even when his resume has him failing to prevent two much smaller conflicts!

Bah screw it.

Varric's narrative was completely unnecessary.
I'm sure it could have been removed from the game without any harm.

Hey I'm David Gaider, and I take offence to that last one.

Wow, sorry David
As much as I admire and love your previous work, you failed to captivate me this time.
Aside from a couple of lame jokes and many, many scenes of "You're lying dwarf!! / That's not the whole thing, it's way bigger!", Varric's narrative added nothing and instead made beautiful plot holes.

[Ottemis]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ottemis wrote...
Often enough, someone believed to be able to make a difference even if they didn't before, CAN make a difference, just because enough people believe they can. Even with something like that being a distant possibility, if times are desperate enough, that's a straw to grasp.

If the straw they want to grasp is a proven failure, then I'll call it idiocy.

Instead of wasting their time, the Seekers should have done something with Meredith a long time ago. Or actually act like an institution and not grasp at straws (failures at that).

If that's what the Chantry can do and these are the people that want to save it, I say let it burn.

It's a big world with lots of global and regional issues where problems are prone to oversight.

[KnightofPhoenix]

In Exile wrote...
With regard to Hawke being able to stop the conflict, though, what I think the rationale turns on is that Hawke, being at the centre of this whole mess would have a great deal of influence with one side or the other. Except I can't see how that makes sense for the templars. He killed lots of mages... so they'll listen? Whereas with the mages you could at least say he was an inspirational figure.

If he has influence with one side, then the other side hates him. So how is he supposed to prevent the war?
At best, he would participate and make one faction win. But that's not what Cassandra wants.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ottemis wrote...
It's a big world with lots of global and regional issues where problems are prone to oversight.

When the problem in Kirkwall took a decade to explode, that's just incompetence of an institution that outlived its usefullness. Made even worse when Cassandra is seriously thinking that Hawke can prevent the war. Even she thinking that the Warden can help prevent the war is stupid, but it makes more sense than Hawke.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 29 mai 2011 - 05:49 .

[Master Shiori]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

In Exile wrote...
With regard to Hawke being able to stop the conflict, though, what I think the rationale turns on is that Hawke, being at the centre of this whole mess would have a great deal of influence with one side or the other. Except I can't see how that makes sense for the templars. He killed lots of mages... so they'll listen? Whereas with the mages you could at least say he was an inspirational figure.

If he has influence with one side, then the other side hates him. So how is he supposed to prevent the war?
At best, he would participate and make one faction win. But that's not what Cassandra wants.

If he has influence with one side, he can talk to that side and make them back down and try to find a peacefull solution. Ofc, you'd still need to find someone who could do the same for the other side.

[tmp7704]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

If he has influence with one side, then the other side hates him. So how is he supposed to prevent the war?
At best, he would participate and make one faction win. But that's not what Cassandra wants.

She may believe Hawke can persuade the side which holds him/her in esteem to stand down. It's easier to defuse the conflict when you don't have two factions going into it head first.

edit: 'ed

Modifié par tmp7704, 29 mai 2011 - 05:51 .

[In Exile]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
If he has influence with one side, then the other side hates him. So how is he supposed to prevent the war?
At best, he would participate and make one faction win. But that's not what Cassandra wants.

Like I said: I think the ending only works for the mages. Cassandra (and the Chantry) can try and reign in the break-away templars because of the previous link between them as arms of the same religious institution. Hawke, as a hero-figure for mages, can then convince the mages to come to the table to negotiate.

The problem is what happens when you switch it to the templars. Hawke commited genocide. So what exactly can Hawke do or say?

I think what Bioware wants to do is make it hinge on Meredith (that's why she was idol loony). Which can't work because you'd think that most mages, set on freedom anyway, wouldn't care what the powder-keg genocide was for.

[erynnar]

Persephone wrote...

Alistairlover94 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Alistairlover94 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Eh, the entire premise of Varric telling the story did not make that much sense to me as it needed Cassandra to be a grade A moron to think that Hawke is some mastermind who engineered all this. And you'd think that Varric's tale would remove this pre-conception, but the idiot now thinks that Hawke can save the world for some reason, even when his resume has him failing to prevent two much smaller conflicts!

Bah screw it.

Hawke's primary skill is killing, being a mindless mercenary. Not being a leader like The Warden.

My Canon Lady Hawke wasn't a mindless mercenary and my Canon Warden certainly wasn't a leader. (You read my story, right? XD)

I did read it!(excellent writing, BTW).

And my Aeducan was a great commander of armies. Her self-confidence, and skill in battle inspired fear in the hearts of her foes, and courage in the hearts of her allies. Hawke is just the muscle for the entire game. She gets hired to protect Bartrand and Varric, she has to take out the Tal-Vashoth, she has to take out the apostates for Meredith etc, etc.

How is it different to: Being hired to get rid of the undead, hired to kill your way through to the urn, hired by brother dearest/Harrowmont to eliminate Jarvia and her carta & kill your way through the DR to find Branka, being hired by Zathrian to slay Witherfang......?

Except I wasn't "hired" to get the urn. I may have gotten money as a result of retrieving it, but I had to get the Urn to save Eamon and save the world from the Blight.  I wasn't hired to kill Jarvia. Bhelen held it over my head as a "i'll scratch your back if you scratch mine." He held the contract with the Grey and his needed armies for the Blight over my head for that. So I wasn't a  hired merc except when I worked for the Crows, or other small groups...again, to get money to buy armor, potions, etc. Then I was a merc in a manner of speaking.

Modifié par erynnar, 29 mai 2011 - 05:55 .

[BeefoTheBold]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Alistairlover94 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Eh, the entire premise of Varric telling the story did not make that much sense to me as it needed Cassandra to be a grade A moron to think that Hawke is some mastermind who engineered all this. And you'd think that Varric's tale would remove this pre-conception, but the idiot now thinks that Hawke can save the world for some reason, even when his resume has him failing to prevent two much smaller conflicts!

Bah screw it.

Hawke's primary skill is killing, being a mindless mercenary. Not being a leader like The Warden.

My Canon Lady Hawke wasn't a mindless mercenary and my Canon Warden certainly wasn't a leader. (You read my story, right? XD)

I did read it!(excellent writing, BTW).

And my Aeducan was a great commander of armies. Her self-confidence, and skill in battle inspired fear in the hearts of her foes, and courage in the hearts of her allies. Hawke is just the muscle for the entire game. She gets hired to protect Bartrand and Varric, she has to take out the Tal-Vashoth, she has to take out the apostates for Meredith etc, etc.

She/He's a glorified exterminator is what you're saying.

Modifié par BeefoTheBold, 29 mai 2011 - 05:52 .

[Lord_Valandil]

Master Shiori wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

In Exile wrote...
With regard to Hawke being able to stop the conflict, though, what I think the rationale turns on is that Hawke, being at the centre of this whole mess would have a great deal of influence with one side or the other. Except I can't see how that makes sense for the templars. He killed lots of mages... so they'll listen? Whereas with the mages you could at least say he was an inspirational figure.

If he has influence with one side, then the other side hates him. So how is he supposed to prevent the war?
At best, he would participate and make one faction win. But that's not what Cassandra wants.

If he has influence with one side, he can talk to that side and make them back down and try to find a peacefull solution. Ofc, you'd still need to find someone who could do the same for the other side.

"All right guys, I know those big bad templars have been cruel to you, but I think we should give them a chance. Just a small chance. What say you? Isn't peace much better than making people explode? Just saying...You can live happily in your tower, no need to...

*Hawke explodes* "

[In Exile]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

Because that was done to gather those allies to stop a great and ancient evil. Hawke only does it for personal gain. A mercenary. Granted that doesn't make Aeducan a great leader, but it still makes Hawke a mercenary.

Hawke doesn't need to do it for those reasons. Hawke could be trying to get to the deep roads out of concern for the family (if the templars catch me or Bethany, we're all screwed); Hawke could be trying to defuse a tense political situation for the good of Kirkwall with the qunari; and Hawke could be trying to avoid an all out civil war with the mages & templars.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Master Shiori wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

In Exile wrote...
With regard to Hawke being able to stop the conflict, though, what I think the rationale turns on is that Hawke, being at the centre of this whole mess would have a great deal of influence with one side or the other. Except I can't see how that makes sense for the templars. He killed lots of mages... so they'll listen? Whereas with the mages you could at least say he was an inspirational figure.

If he has influence with one side, then the other side hates him. So how is he supposed to prevent the war?
At best, he would participate and make one faction win. But that's not what Cassandra wants.

If he has influence with one side, he can talk to that side and make them back down and try to find a peacefull solution. Ofc, you'd still need to find someone who could do the same for the other side.

And let me guess. Cassandra's entire plan hinges on her finding both Hawke and the Warden (who disapear with no trace), and somehow knowing that they will end on opposite  sides (even if Hawke saved mages and the Warden is a mage). And that these two super heroes will prevent the whole war.

I am loving the direction of the plot. All we need is more crazy idols, lunacy, idiocy and incompetence, and Thedas would be the biggest circus in the history of video gaming.

[Ottemis]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ottemis wrote...
It's a big world with lots of global and regional issues where problems are prone to oversight.

When the problem in Kirkwall took a decade to explode, that's just incompetence of an institution that outlived its usefullness. Made even worse when Cassandra is seriously thinking that Hawke can prevent the war. Even she thinking that the Warden can help prevent the war is stupid, but it makes more sense than Hawke.

We have tunnelvision in this game as to global events, we can't possibly base an opinion on their level of incompetance not knowing what else might have been going on? (<--- blight for one) Aside from that, leadership trusted to take care of Kirkwall for obvious reasons (they're leaders after all) made a bloody mess of things. I know trusting a leader to fix a growing issue before it explodes is maybe a stretch to some, but quite realistic in my mind, to some extend.
Almost impossible for there to be an over-coupling leadership organisation that would stoop to micromanaging each country/region and not trust the appointed leaders to deal with crap.
They did at some point move to gather upclose intell with Leiliana, whether or not that's classed to be too late or too early in the chain of events for your tastes doesn't change the fact that apparently that world functioned as it did because it worked for them before, right?

Modifié par Ottemis, 29 mai 2011 - 05:57 .

[Master Shiori]

Lord_Valandil wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

In Exile wrote...
With regard to Hawke being able to stop the conflict, though, what I think the rationale turns on is that Hawke, being at the centre of this whole mess would have a great deal of influence with one side or the other. Except I can't see how that makes sense for the templars. He killed lots of mages... so they'll listen? Whereas with the mages you could at least say he was an inspirational figure.

If he has influence with one side, then the other side hates him. So how is he supposed to prevent the war?
At best, he would participate and make one faction win. But that's not what Cassandra wants.

If he has influence with one side, he can talk to that side and make them back down and try to find a peacefull solution. Ofc, you'd still need to find someone who could do the same for the other side.

"All right guys, I know those big bad templars have been cruel to you, but I think we should give them a chance. Just a small chance. What say you? Isn't peace much better than making people explode? Just saying...You can live happily in your tower, no need to...

*Hawke explodes* "

Sure, we can make a parody out of anything. Something tells me the writers may not exactly embrace your scenario.

Just a hunch really.

[KnightofPhoenix]

In Exile wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
If he has influence with one side, then the other side hates him. So how is he supposed to prevent the war?
At best, he would participate and make one faction win. But that's not what Cassandra wants.

Like I said: I think the ending only works for the mages. Cassandra (and the Chantry) can try and reign in the break-away templars because of the previous link between them as arms of the same religious institution. Hawke, as a hero-figure for mages, can then convince the mages to come to the table to negotiate.

That's why she's looking for the Warden then.
Sigh.

[In Exile]

erynnar wrote...
Except I wasn't "hired" to get the urn. I may have gotten money as a result of retrieving it, but I had to get the Urn to save Eamon and save the world from the Blight.  I wasn't hired to kill Jarvia. Bhelen held it over my head as a "i'll scratch your back if you scratch mine." He held the contrack with the Grey and his needed armies for the Blight over my head for that. So I wasn't a  hired merc.

But it isn't a negotiation. However you want to cast it, it ends with them telling the Warden exactly what to do. What does the Warden actually instigate?