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[BeefoTheBold]

Persephone wrote...

Alistairlover94 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Alistairlover94 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Eh, the entire premise of Varric telling the story did not make that much sense to me as it needed Cassandra to be a grade A moron to think that Hawke is some mastermind who engineered all this. And you'd think that Varric's tale would remove this pre-conception, but the idiot now thinks that Hawke can save the world for some reason, even when his resume has him failing to prevent two much smaller conflicts!

Bah screw it.

Hawke's primary skill is killing, being a mindless mercenary. Not being a leader like The Warden.

My Canon Lady Hawke wasn't a mindless mercenary and my Canon Warden certainly wasn't a leader. (You read my story, right? XD)

I did read it!(excellent writing, BTW).

And my Aeducan was a great commander of armies. Her self-confidence, and skill in battle inspired fear in the hearts of her foes, and courage in the hearts of her allies. Hawke is just the muscle for the entire game. She gets hired to protect Bartrand and Varric, she has to take out the Tal-Vashoth, she has to take out the apostates for Meredith etc, etc.

How is it different to: Being hired to get rid of the undead, hired to kill your way through to the urn, hired by brother dearest/Harrowmont to eliminate Jarvia and her carta & kill your way through the DR to find Branka, being hired by Zathrian to slay Witherfang......?

I'd say it is different because of two factors:

1. Choice - In many of the things you listed there, you can take multiple angles. For example, once you find out the truth of Witherfang, you can change your mind.

2. The rewards of your efforts are story impact. Yes, admittedly there's a ton of killing stuff for people in DAO, but in nearly all cases, the story proceeds and ends differently based on what you do or don't do. For example, depending on who you side with between Bhelan and Harrowmont, you get a different description of what happens to Dwarven society at the end.

[In Exile]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

That's why she's looking for the Warden then.
Sigh.

That makes even less sense. What possible influence could the Warden have?

[Alex Kershaw]

Hmm... Is it only me then who actually thought the Leandra death was pretty good? I mean, I didn't see it as disappointing at all - I was actually hoping and hoping as I traversed that place that I'd be able to save her, and it's one of the only times DA2 ever made me think like that... Certainly, the Carver/Bethany death at the beginning was pretty lame, but for me, as somebody who was very disappointed with DA2, I thought All That Remains was fantastic (in fact, the best part of the game?).

[BeefoTheBold]

Alex Kershaw wrote...

Hmm... Is it only me then who actually thought the Leandra death was pretty good? I mean, I didn't see it as disappointing at all - I was actually hoping and hoping as I traversed that place that I'd be able to save her, and it's one of the only times DA2 ever made me think like that... Certainly, the Carver/Bethany death at the beginning was pretty lame, but for me, as somebody who was very disappointed with DA2, I thought All That Remains was fantastic (in fact, the best part of the game?).

It would have been nice if there were branching outcomes that enabled you to save her.

Say, if you allowed the blood mage to help you locate her you get there in time. If you don't accept blood magic help then you don't.

[Master Shiori]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

In Exile wrote...
With regard to Hawke being able to stop the conflict, though, what I think the rationale turns on is that Hawke, being at the centre of this whole mess would have a great deal of influence with one side or the other. Except I can't see how that makes sense for the templars. He killed lots of mages... so they'll listen? Whereas with the mages you could at least say he was an inspirational figure.

If he has influence with one side, then the other side hates him. So how is he supposed to prevent the war?
At best, he would participate and make one faction win. But that's not what Cassandra wants.

If he has influence with one side, he can talk to that side and make them back down and try to find a peacefull solution. Ofc, you'd still need to find someone who could do the same for the other side.

And let me guess. Cassandra's entire plan hinges on her finding both Hawke and the Warden (who disapear with no trace), and somehow knowing that they will end on opposite  sides (even if Hawke saved mages and the Warden is a mage). And that these two super heroes will prevent the whole war.

I am loving the direction of the plot. All we need is more crazy idols, lunacy, idiocy and incompetence, and Thedas would be the biggest circus in the history of video gaming.

Yes, because we (the players) are very good at predicting how certain plots will play out. It's not like we didn't predict that DA2 would be about Origins Warden  chasing after Morrigan in Orlais.. oh wait.

[Lord_Valandil]

Alex Kershaw wrote...
 (in fact, the best part of the game?).

For me, the best part of the games were the credits.
At least I cannot complain a lot about Inon Zur's score. It was good, a bit monotonous at times, but good.

[FieryDove]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Instead of wasting their time, the Seekers should have done something with Meredith a long time ago. Or actually act like an institution and not grasp at straws (failures at that).

If that's what the Chantry can do and these are the people that want to save it, I say let it burn.

Ottemis wrote...


It's a big world with lots of global and regional issues where problems are prone to oversight.

I don't buy it, if Justina (sp?) thought this was the worst threat to thedas since the Quanri invasion and did nothing like Elthina did...then yes let it burn.

I still am sort of disappointed in how Hawke turned out. He/she was (From marketing) supposed to be more important than the Warden and did things that were more impressive than the Warden. My Warden did many things that I considered big besides slay AD. Hawke did...? If Hawke wasn't there things would have gotten bad idol or no with time and the boom would have still happened and the rest would follow as usual. Ah well.

Modifié par FieryDove, 29 mai 2011 - 06:01 .

[erynnar]

Master Shiori wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

In Exile wrote...
With regard to Hawke being able to stop the conflict, though, what I think the rationale turns on is that Hawke, being at the centre of this whole mess would have a great deal of influence with one side or the other. Except I can't see how that makes sense for the templars. He killed lots of mages... so they'll listen? Whereas with the mages you could at least say he was an inspirational figure.

If he has influence with one side, then the other side hates him. So how is he supposed to prevent the war?
At best, he would participate and make one faction win. But that's not what Cassandra wants.

If he has influence with one side, he can talk to that side and make them back down and try to find a peacefull solution. Ofc, you'd still need to find someone who could do the same for the other side.

If Hawke had that kind of influence than it would have worked BEFORE the whole damn thing exploded. Um, yeah, lets get that bloke/bird who couldn't talk them down the first time. Surely now that there is a full scale rebellion going on they can stop it. Riiiight....And quite frankly, my Hawke may have been dumb as a post to not see the writing on the wall with Anders, but I wasn't. So my Hawke dumb as a post, doesn't try and talk him out of whatever he is going to do, and makes a half assed attempted to grill him and get it out of him? Sorry one too many plot holes for me.

[In Exile]

BeefoTheBold wrote...
I'd say it is different because of two factors:

1. Choice - In many of the things you listed there, you can take multiple angles. For example, once you find out the truth of Witherfang, you can change your mind.

2. The rewards of your efforts are story impact. Yes, admittedly there's a ton of killing stuff for people in DAO, but in nearly all cases, the story proceeds and ends differently based on what you do or don't do. For example, depending on who you side with between Bhelan and Harrowmont, you get a different description of what happens to Dwarven society at the end.

But you're still running errands with most of those choices. Yes, with Witherfang, you can change your mind. But that just means running an errand for Witherfang (go speak to Zathrian!).

You are right, though. The Warden does occasionally have choices to be pro-active. Like when you can convince the wolves to kill the dalish.

I don't think Hawke actually has a pro-active moment like this. Not that I can recall. But the Warden is much better.

The only pro-active character Bioware's ever designed was ME1 Shepard (ME2 Shepard goes right back to errand boy for TIM).

[BeefoTheBold]

FieryDove wrote...


I don't buy it, if Justina (sp?) thought this was the worst threat to thedas since the Quanri invasion and did nothing like Elthina did...then yes let it burn.

I still am sort of disappointed in how Hawke turned out. He/she was (From marketing) supposed to be more important than the Warden and did things that were more impressive than the Warden. My Warden did many things that I considered big besides slay AD. Hawke did...? If Hawke wasn't there things would have gotten bad idol or no with time and the boom would have still happened and the rest would follow as usual. Ah well.

Well, arguably he at least managed to save the city from the Qunari.

On the other hand, if the Qunari had taken over then maybe you don't have a worldwide war between mages and Chantry. Maybe you have one between the Qunari and the Chantry instead.

So I guess SOMETHING turned out differently by virtue of Hawke being there.

Modifié par BeefoTheBold, 29 mai 2011 - 06:03 .

[In Exile]

BeefoTheBold wrote...

It would have been nice if there were branching outcomes that enabled you to save her.

Say, if you allowed the blood mage to help you locate her you get there in time. If you don't accept blood magic help then you don't.

Apparently that was an option, but was cut beacuse testers all felt like they 'failed' with the quest and so repeatedly reloaded until they saved her.

[Master Shiori]

Alex Kershaw wrote...

Hmm... Is it only me then who actually thought the Leandra death was pretty good? I mean, I didn't see it as disappointing at all - I was actually hoping and hoping as I traversed that place that I'd be able to save her, and it's one of the only times DA2 ever made me think like that... Certainly, the Carver/Bethany death at the beginning was pretty lame, but for me, as somebody who was very disappointed with DA2, I thought All That Remains was fantastic (in fact, the best part of the game?).

I think so too. It definitely had a powerful effect on me.

But I did care about her as a character based on few conversations in Act 1 and 2. Though I understand that others didn't find that enough to feel connected to her, so no surprise then that the death scene did nothing for them.

[Lord_Valandil]

BeefoTheBold wrote...
Well, arguably he at least managed to save the city from the Qunari.

Right after they torched it, killed the local ruler and a lot of people.
If I were Hawke, I would have suspected about Isabella and her obvious "fear" of entering the Qunari Compound. Besides...I'll never understand why the Qunari spent so many years just sitting around, doing nothing, until they decided it was a good idea to set Kirkwall in flames.

[In Exile]

FieryDove wrote...
I still am sort of disappointed in how Hawke turned out. He/she was (From marketing) supposed to be more important than the Warden and did things that were more impressive than the Warden. My Warden did many things that I considered big besides slay AD. Hawke did...? If Hawke wasn't there things would have gotten bad idol or no with time and the boom would have still happened and the rest would follow as usual. Ah well.

That's the thing. Setting up a King in Orzammar and a ruler in Ferelden is arguably as politically impactful as the genocide of the mages in Kirkwall.

Nothing Hawke did compares to killing the Archdemon and stopping the blight. The only comparable (and greater hero, IMO) figure to the Warden is Garahel.

[BeefoTheBold]

In Exile wrote...

BeefoTheBold wrote...

It would have been nice if there were branching outcomes that enabled you to save her.

Say, if you allowed the blood mage to help you locate her you get there in time. If you don't accept blood magic help then you don't.

Apparently that was an option, but was cut beacuse testers all felt like they 'failed' with the quest and so repeatedly reloaded until they saved her.

If that's the case, then the quest was poorly written. If one outcome is 100% pure goodness and the other is 100% pure badness, then many people WILL reload.

How I'd have structured this quest is that using Blood Magic allows you to rescue your mother, but has longer term consequences that aren't immediately apparent down the line. Alternatively, NOT using blood magic and having your mother die as a result should get you some chops/trust with the Templars.

It's an example of a pretty shallow game as it was implemented because nothing you choose matters.

[In Exile]

Lord_Valandil wrote...
Right after they torched it, killed the local ruler and a lot of people.
If I were Hawke, I would have suspected about Isabella and her obvious "fear" of entering the Qunari Compound. Besides...I'll never understand why the Qunari spent so many years just sitting around, doing nothing, until they decided it was a good idea to set Kirkwall in flames.

I think the quest with the Viscount's son was intended to show the qunari were out searching. But poor execution.

[BeefoTheBold]

Lord_Valandil wrote...

BeefoTheBold wrote...
Well, arguably he at least managed to save the city from the Qunari.

Right after they torched it, killed the local ruler and a lot of people.
If I were Hawke, I would have suspected about Isabella and her obvious "fear" of entering the Qunari Compound. Besides...I'll never understand why the Qunari spent so many years just sitting around, doing nothing, until they decided it was a good idea to set Kirkwall in flames.

Granted. Hawke still was pretty moronic to allow things to get to that point and not noticing the Isabelle issue. It speaks to the "what the hell was Hawke doing during the years you weren't actively playing him" complaint.

But he DID still manage to save the city. After a lot of damage, death and destruction it's true...but the outcome would have been unquestionably different had he not been around to help out on that one.

[BeefoTheBold]

In Exile wrote...

FieryDove wrote...
I still am sort of disappointed in how Hawke turned out. He/she was (From marketing) supposed to be more important than the Warden and did things that were more impressive than the Warden. My Warden did many things that I considered big besides slay AD. Hawke did...? If Hawke wasn't there things would have gotten bad idol or no with time and the boom would have still happened and the rest would follow as usual. Ah well.

That's the thing. Setting up a King in Orzammar and a ruler in Ferelden is arguably as politically impactful as the genocide of the mages in Kirkwall.

Nothing Hawke did compares to killing the Archdemon and stopping the blight. The only comparable (and greater hero, IMO) figure to the Warden is Garahel.

And stopping a Civil War as well. Don't forget that the Warden did that too.

And ending a massive, centuries old curse in the Dalish forest. And saving the Circle of Magi.

These are all very impactful things.

Modifié par BeefoTheBold, 29 mai 2011 - 06:10 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

We have tunnelvision in this game as to global events, we can't possibly
base an opinion on their level of incompetance not knowing what else
might have been going on?

We know all the Chantry already knows in regards to magic (what the Wardens know is irrelevent). And they constantly demonstrated incompetence in regards to Kirkwall, their most important and critical Circle. 

Almost impossible for there to be an over-coupling leadership
organisation that would stoop to micromanaging each country/region and
not trust the appointed leaders to deal with crap.

Hence why you make sure that the leaders you appoint are competent. That's not Meredith. And they let her there for 10 years.

They did at some point move to gather upclose intell with Leiliana,
whether or not that's classed to be too late or too early in the chain
of events for your tastes doesn't change the fact that apparently that
world functioned as it did because it worked for them before, right?

They were considering an Exalted March, because they think that solves everything. Again, incompetence. They were not looking for another solution. Like I don't know, remove the incompetent Meredith.

I can write a wall of text to show you that almost every single character in DA2 is either  an idiot, a maniac, or incompetent.
If that's realism to you, then good for you.

In Exile wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

That's why she's looking for the Warden then.
Sigh.

That makes even less sense. What possible influence could the Warden have?

Exactly. So why is the idiot Cassandra looking for him / her as well?

Master Shiori wrote...
Yes, because we (the players) are very good at predicting how certain plots will play out. It's not like we didn't predict that DA2 would be about Origins Warden  chasing after Morrigan in Orlais.. oh wait.

Based on DA2's writing, I think I'll pass thanks.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 29 mai 2011 - 06:12 .

[Ottemis]

Lord_Valandil wrote...

BeefoTheBold wrote...
Well, arguably he at least managed to save the city from the Qunari.

Right after they torched it, killed the local ruler and a lot of people.
If I were Hawke, I would have suspected about Isabella and her obvious "fear" of entering the Qunari Compound. Besides...I'll never understand why the Qunari spent so many years just sitting around, doing nothing, until they decided it was a good idea to set Kirkwall in flames.

They had their reason for being there, and couldn't leave while they didn't want to be in Kirkwall in the first place.
Just like Sten would never have been able to return to his homeland without his sword, so could these Qunari never return home without what was stolen from them.
It's a cesspool of crime and corruption in their minds, narrowminded people which also makes the conflict in views between the Qunari, or rather the Qun and the Chantry explode in the end.
They hold the Qun sacred, much like Samara, they live and die by it. Their way of life, or their beliefs being threatened up to the point where it violently clashed with the Qun brought them to action and ultimately that violent outcome.

It's like putting two volatile substances next to eachother that when mixed explode, then shaking the table like a mofo and expect nothing to happen hehe.
The Qun compelled them to stay, compelled them to protect their own, and when they were threatened one too many times, it compelled them to cleanse the city from it's corruption.

Modifié par Ottemis, 29 mai 2011 - 06:19 .

[Aaleel]

BeefoTheBold wrote...

Lord_Valandil wrote...

BeefoTheBold wrote...
Well, arguably he at least managed to save the city from the Qunari.

Right after they torched it, killed the local ruler and a lot of people.
If I were Hawke, I would have suspected about Isabella and her obvious "fear" of entering the Qunari Compound. Besides...I'll never understand why the Qunari spent so many years just sitting around, doing nothing, until they decided it was a good idea to set Kirkwall in flames.

Granted. Hawke still was pretty moronic to allow things to get to that point and not noticing the Isabelle issue. It speaks to the "what the hell was Hawke doing during the years you weren't actively playing him" complaint.

But he DID still manage to save the city. After a lot of damage, death and destruction it's true...but the outcome would have been unquestionably different had he not been around to help out on that one.

Well once the Templars and mages got organized they would have taken the city back.  The Arishok himself said they didn't have the numbers for indoctrination.  They made a sneak attack, and made a beeline for the Keep.  Hawke pretty much saved the nobles who were trapped in the keep.  But the Qunari could not have held the city.

[FieryDove]

BeefoTheBold wrote...

Well, arguably he at least managed to save the city from the Qunari.

On the other hand, if the Qunari had taken over then maybe you don't have a worldwide war between mages and Chantry. Maybe you have one between the Qunari and the Chantry instead.

So I guess SOMETHING turned out differently by virtue of Hawke being there.

Consider Meredith would have dealt with the "outrage" on her own and Hawke wasn't needed. But yeah I guess he/she did save some people from the quanari. Since the quanari did attack Kirkwall I'm assuming that means the free marches/Quanari are now considered at war too so there may be a few more wars going on at once in #3 if it follows close in the timeline.

[Master Shiori]

erynnar wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

In Exile wrote...
With regard to Hawke being able to stop the conflict, though, what I think the rationale turns on is that Hawke, being at the centre of this whole mess would have a great deal of influence with one side or the other. Except I can't see how that makes sense for the templars. He killed lots of mages... so they'll listen? Whereas with the mages you could at least say he was an inspirational figure.

If he has influence with one side, then the other side hates him. So how is he supposed to prevent the war?
At best, he would participate and make one faction win. But that's not what Cassandra wants.

If he has influence with one side, he can talk to that side and make them back down and try to find a peacefull solution. Ofc, you'd still need to find someone who could do the same for the other side.

If Hawke had that kind of influence than it would have worked BEFORE the whole damn thing exploded. Um, yeah, lets get that bloke/bird who couldn't talk them down the first time. Surely now that there is a full scale rebellion going on they can stop it. Riiiight....And quite frankly, my Hawke may have been dumb as a post to not see the writing on the wall with Anders, but I wasn't. So my Hawke dumb as a post, doesn't try and talk him out of whatever he is going to do, and makes a half assed attempted to grill him and get it out of him? Sorry one too many plot holes for me.

The biggest plot hole with Anders is that he doesn't need your help at all. Even if you flat out refuse his quest at the very start, he'll gather the needed ingredients and still set the bomb. With that in mind it makes you wonder why he felt the need to tell you anything, especially if your prior actions and words showed that you clearly support the templars.

As for Hawke, he/she earn the respect of one side or the other based on his/her action during the final battle (read: taking out Meredith and Orsino).
Should Hawke have been more proactive character in general? Yes, I think so. Especially in the grand mess that is Act 3. But that's just one of the many story related issues that I had with DA2, even though I do like the game, all things considered.

[Ottemis]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Hence why you make sure that the leaders you appoint are competent. That's not Meredith. And they let her there for 10 years.

Meredith was corrupted. By the time we met her things were already seriously escalating and that was partly ofnot greatly due to Meredith's corruption (which was subtle, if you ask me btw). Altho I must say I can't make a proper asessment of how different Meredith would have acted without the corruption as we've never seen it.

[BeefoTheBold]

Aaleel wrote...

BeefoTheBold wrote...

Lord_Valandil wrote...

BeefoTheBold wrote...
Well, arguably he at least managed to save the city from the Qunari.

Right after they torched it, killed the local ruler and a lot of people.
If I were Hawke, I would have suspected about Isabella and her obvious "fear" of entering the Qunari Compound. Besides...I'll never understand why the Qunari spent so many years just sitting around, doing nothing, until they decided it was a good idea to set Kirkwall in flames.

Granted. Hawke still was pretty moronic to allow things to get to that point and not noticing the Isabelle issue. It speaks to the "what the hell was Hawke doing during the years you weren't actively playing him" complaint.

But he DID still manage to save the city. After a lot of damage, death and destruction it's true...but the outcome would have been unquestionably different had he not been around to help out on that one.

Well once the Templars and mages got organized they would have taken the city back.  The Arishok himself said they didn't have the numbers for indoctrination.  They made a sneak attack, and made a beeline for the Keep.  Hawke pretty much saved the nobles who were trapped in the keep.  But the Qunari could not have held the city.

If they actually managed to take the city (and they were close) I think it possible that the Qunari homeland would have sent reinforcements. It's hinted pretty strongly in both DAO and DA2 that the Qunari think it is only a matter of time until they conquer everyone and convert them to the Qun,