738 réponses à ce sujet

[Aaleel]

BeefoTheBold wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

BeefoTheBold wrote...

Lord_Valandil wrote...

BeefoTheBold wrote...
Well, arguably he at least managed to save the city from the Qunari.

Right after they torched it, killed the local ruler and a lot of people.
If I were Hawke, I would have suspected about Isabella and her obvious "fear" of entering the Qunari Compound. Besides...I'll never understand why the Qunari spent so many years just sitting around, doing nothing, until they decided it was a good idea to set Kirkwall in flames.

Granted. Hawke still was pretty moronic to allow things to get to that point and not noticing the Isabelle issue. It speaks to the "what the hell was Hawke doing during the years you weren't actively playing him" complaint.

But he DID still manage to save the city. After a lot of damage, death and destruction it's true...but the outcome would have been unquestionably different had he not been around to help out on that one.

Well once the Templars and mages got organized they would have taken the city back.  The Arishok himself said they didn't have the numbers for indoctrination.  They made a sneak attack, and made a beeline for the Keep.  Hawke pretty much saved the nobles who were trapped in the keep.  But the Qunari could not have held the city.

If they actually managed to take the city (and they were close) I think it possible that the Qunari homeland would have sent reinforcements. It's hinted pretty strongly in both DAO and DA2 that the Qunari think it is only a matter of time until they conquer everyone and convert them to the Qun,

They overran the keep, which was implausible to begin with.  The city guard barracks is there, but that's either here nor there.  Once you met up with Mereidth and Orsino, they were ready to take back the keep then and there.  Hawke (at least my Hawke) decided to choose a more subtle path so that the hostages would not get killed.

But the keep was getting taken back regardless, it was just a matter of the collateral damage.

Modifié par Aaleel, 29 mai 2011 - 06:18 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ottemis wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Hence why you make sure that the leaders you appoint are competent. That's not Meredith. And they let her there for 10 years.

Meredith was corrupted. By the time we met her things were already seriously escalating and that was partly ofnot greatly due to Meredith's corruption (which was subtle, if you ask me btw). Altho I must say I can't make a proper asessment of how different Meredith would have acted without the corruption as we've never seen it.

The roots of the problem were all before corruption. For the first time in history, the populace is actively aiding mages and spitting on Templar faces. That's in Act 2.

If you want to use the idol as an excuse, the Chantry had 3 years to act after Meredith constantly blocked the election of a viscount and rumours abound about her mental health. They didn't do anything, except consider an Exalted March.

Better yet. How did the Chantry ever think that appoing someone like Meredith who has personal reasons to be obsessed wth mages and has no political and diplomatic savvyness, is a good idea in their most critical Circle that recently got involved in politics is beyond me.

But that's just nothing really. I don't mind some idiocy and incompetence, sadly the world is full of them. But when almost everything is based on that, plus insanity, then you just end up with a poorly written story imo. 

[In Exile]

BeefoTheBold wrote...
If that's the case, then the quest was poorly written. If one outcome is 100% pure goodness and the other is 100% pure badness, then many people WILL reload.

How I'd have structured this quest is that using Blood Magic allows you to rescue your mother, but has longer term consequences that aren't immediately apparent down the line. Alternatively, NOT using blood magic and having your mother die as a result should get you some chops/trust with the Templars.

It's an example of a pretty shallow game as it was implemented because nothing you choose matters.

I agree with you in principle. I would switch gaining trust with the templars to being hunted by the templars and locking you in to a conflict with Meredith and lock out the templar end.

[BeefoTheBold]

Aaleel wrote...

BeefoTheBold wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

BeefoTheBold wrote...

Lord_Valandil wrote...

BeefoTheBold wrote...
Well, arguably he at least managed to save the city from the Qunari.

Right after they torched it, killed the local ruler and a lot of people.
If I were Hawke, I would have suspected about Isabella and her obvious "fear" of entering the Qunari Compound. Besides...I'll never understand why the Qunari spent so many years just sitting around, doing nothing, until they decided it was a good idea to set Kirkwall in flames.

Granted. Hawke still was pretty moronic to allow things to get to that point and not noticing the Isabelle issue. It speaks to the "what the hell was Hawke doing during the years you weren't actively playing him" complaint.

But he DID still manage to save the city. After a lot of damage, death and destruction it's true...but the outcome would have been unquestionably different had he not been around to help out on that one.

Well once the Templars and mages got organized they would have taken the city back.  The Arishok himself said they didn't have the numbers for indoctrination.  They made a sneak attack, and made a beeline for the Keep.  Hawke pretty much saved the nobles who were trapped in the keep.  But the Qunari could not have held the city.

If they actually managed to take the city (and they were close) I think it possible that the Qunari homeland would have sent reinforcements. It's hinted pretty strongly in both DAO and DA2 that the Qunari think it is only a matter of time until they conquer everyone and convert them to the Qun,

They overran the keep, which was implausible to begin with.  The city guard barracks is there, but that's either here nor there.  Once you met up with Mereidth and Orsino, they were ready to take back the keep then and there.  Hawke (at least my Hawke) decided to choose a more subtle path so that the hostages would not get killed.

But the keep was getting taken back regardless, it was just a matter of the collateral damage.

The Viscount states multiple times that he lacks the forces to dislodge the Qunari from the city. It's one of the reasons he tiptoes so carefully around them for years. It's unclear on the Qunari numbers, but I don't recall Meredith or Orsino thinking that retaking the Keep was a sure thing. 

[Ottemis]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I don't mind some idiocy and incompetence, sadly the world is full of them. 

Amen to that.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
But when almost everything is based on that, plus insanity, then you just end up with a poorly written story imo.  

It's extreme, i'll give you that. Personally I wouldn't say it's poorly written overall but yeah improvements can always be made no?

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
If you want to use the idol as an excuse, the Chantry had 3 years to act after Meredith constantly blocked the election of a viscount and rumours abound about her mental health. They didn't do anything, except consider an Exalted March. 

Well, one man's villain is another's champion.
It's a narrowminded world according to plenty, with the whole chantry-tempars-circle business as it is globally.. but enough people accept and even full-on support it due to fear, ignorance, jealousy, to name a few.. I think the line between right and wrong has been faded a long long time ago. Tearing down a (by some) respected (by others) feared leader is bound to be quite an undertaking, especially when a country is already this unbalanced.

Modifié par Ottemis, 29 mai 2011 - 06:28 .

[BeefoTheBold]

In Exile wrote...

BeefoTheBold wrote...
If that's the case, then the quest was poorly written. If one outcome is 100% pure goodness and the other is 100% pure badness, then many people WILL reload.

How I'd have structured this quest is that using Blood Magic allows you to rescue your mother, but has longer term consequences that aren't immediately apparent down the line. Alternatively, NOT using blood magic and having your mother die as a result should get you some chops/trust with the Templars.

It's an example of a pretty shallow game as it was implemented because nothing you choose matters.

I agree with you in principle. I would switch gaining trust with the templars to being hunted by the templars and locking you in to a conflict with Meredith and lock out the templar end.

Multiple ways you could have structured it. Basic point is that it lacked choice and changeable consequences.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ottemis wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
But when almost everything is based on that, plus insanity, then you just end up with a poorly written story imo.  

It's extreme, i'll give you that. Personally I wouldn't say it's poorly written overall but yeah improvements can always be made no?

Improvements can always be made, but there's a difference between making improvement to make something better. And making improvements to make something barely tolerable.

For me, the entire story is just not tolerable.
I mean I had Master Shiori just PM me saying that he never saw me being this distateful of a character, and I replied bluntly and perhaps rudely (and I apologise for that Shiori!). Because the story gets on my nerves that much.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 29 mai 2011 - 06:25 .

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ottemis wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
But when almost everything is based on that, plus insanity, then you just end up with a poorly written story imo.  

It's extreme, i'll give you that. Personally I wouldn't say it's poorly written overall but yeah improvements can always be made no?

Improvements can always be made, but there's a difference between making improvement to make something better. And making improvements to make something barely tolerable.

For me, the entire story is just not tolerable.
I mean I had Master Shiori just PM me saying that he never saw me being this distateful of a character, and I replied bluntly and perhaps rudely (and I apologise for that Shiori!). Because the story gets on my nerves that much.

May I suggest another TW2 runthrough to calm those nerves? Still want your opinion on a certain scene.......

[In Exile]

BeefoTheBold wrote...
And stopping a Civil War as well. Don't forget that the Warden did that too.

And ending a massive, centuries old curse in the Dalish forest. And saving the Circle of Magi.

These are all very impactful things.

I disagree with you on two of those. With the Civil War, it was Eamon that ended it (by calling the Landsmeet to decide a ruler for Ferelden).

Saving the Circle of Magi was the height of irrelevance (because it would either just be replaced or it would be business as usual).

You're right about the curse - I never thought of it in terms of the curse, but rather saving or killing the Dalish.

But you can counter with things Hawke does: defeats some of the Forbidden Ones, kill off an abomination trapped since potentially the Tevinter war with Arlathan.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Persephone wrote...
May I suggest another TW2 runthrough to calm those nerves? Still want your opinion on a certain scene.......

I will, right after I am done with my project that is also getting on my nerves.

[Ottemis]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Improvements can always be made, but there's a difference between making improvement to make something better. And making improvements to make something barely tolerable. 

For me, the entire story is just not tolerable.
I mean I had Master Shiori just PM me saying that he never saw me being this distateful of a character, and I replied bluntly and perhaps rudely (and I apologise for that Shiori!). Because the story gets on my nerves that much.

I can offer a hug =)
Your opinion on this matter doesn't surprise me (in a general sense, not personal) or put me off in any case =)

Modifié par Ottemis, 29 mai 2011 - 06:32 .

[Aaleel]

BeefoTheBold wrote...

The Viscount states multiple times that he lacks the forces to dislodge the Qunari from the city. It's one of the reasons he tiptoes so carefully around them for years. It's unclear on the Qunari numbers, but I don't recall Meredith or Orsino thinking that retaking the Keep was a sure thing. 

They only had control of the keep.  The Qunari never had control of Hightown, Lowtown, the Docks, the Chantry, the Gallows.  They made a beeline for the keep and grabbed the Viscount.  They never had control of the city, not nearly. 

If they had the numbers to take over the city they would have spread out over the city and done it.

[Master Shiori]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ottemis wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
But when almost everything is based on that, plus insanity, then you just end up with a poorly written story imo.  

It's extreme, i'll give you that. Personally I wouldn't say it's poorly written overall but yeah improvements can always be made no?

Improvements can always be made, but there's a difference between making improvement to make something better. And making improvements to make something barely tolerable.

For me, the entire story is just not tolerable.
I mean I had Master Shiori just PM me saying that he never saw me being this distateful of a character, and I replied bluntly and perhaps rudely (and I apologise for that Shiori!). Because the story gets on my nerves that much.

No worries KoP. 

We all get annoyed like that from time to time.

[BeefoTheBold]

In Exile wrote...

BeefoTheBold wrote...
And stopping a Civil War as well. Don't forget that the Warden did that too.

And ending a massive, centuries old curse in the Dalish forest. And saving the Circle of Magi.

These are all very impactful things.

I disagree with you on two of those. With the Civil War, it was Eamon that ended it (by calling the Landsmeet to decide a ruler for Ferelden).

Saving the Circle of Magi was the height of irrelevance (because it would either just be replaced or it would be business as usual).

You're right about the curse - I never thought of it in terms of the curse, but rather saving or killing the Dalish.

But you can counter with things Hawke does: defeats some of the Forbidden Ones, kill off an abomination trapped since potentially the Tevinter war with Arlathan.

Eamon called the Landsmeet it is true, but the Warden is the one that both rescues Anora and beats Loghain in a duel not to mention picks the new ruler(s). Before that, Warden also save's Eamon's life to begin with (or gets Teagan to take over). I'm not sure that, without Warden support, either Eamon or Teagan would have been able to dislodge Loghain.

I do think that saving the Circle of Magi matters because while, yes, EVENTUALLY it would have been replaced, if Warden hadn't gone there the army fighting the Darkspawn wouldn't have included EITHER the Templars or the Mages because they'd be stuck trying to contain the demons/abominations in the Tower or too weakened by that fight to be much good against the Darkspawn if they DID manage to clense the place without Warden's help.

Ultimately, it's a question of interpretation and extrapolation, but I think both of those items are more significant overall in terms of far-reaching consequences than anything Hawke managed.

[Dragoonlordz]

Sorry but my Hawke (real name was Burble McPhee, Varric lied about the name too) he commited suicide after he spent his first couple years in Kirkwall out of depression, everything after that was made up by Varric. ~He's such a big fibber.

P.s Sorry Exile and others but there is no comparrison as far as amount of plot affecting choices in DA2 (had less by far) compared to DAO (had much more). Personality affecting choices maybe debatable but plot is a big no no. Even Hawke never made the biggest choice in DA2, Anders did so you cannot (imho) attribute even that to Hawke.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 29 mai 2011 - 06:41 .

[BeefoTheBold]

Persephone wrote...
May I suggest another TW2 runthrough to calm those nerves? Still want your opinion on a certain scene.......

Actually a really good idea. I think I'll get started on playing a little TW2 today.

[Lord_Valandil]

Ottemis wrote...
I wouldn't say it's poorly written overall but yeah improvements can always be made no?

For me, it is. Very poorly written, with lack of detail, lack of choices and full of holes.
But that's just the opinion of a cake.

[In Exile]

BeefoTheBold wrote...

Eamon called the Landsmeet it is true, but the Warden is the one that both rescues Anora and beats Loghain in a duel not to mention picks the new ruler(s). Before that, Warden also save's Eamon's life to begin with (or gets Teagan to take over). I'm not sure that, without Warden support, either Eamon or Teagan would have been able to dislodge Loghain.

Actually, Alistair (or another character) can beat Loghain in a duel. Anora can vote against the Warden, and him and or Alistair could get arrested. The Warden doesn't have to instigate this.

I do think that saving the Circle of Magi matters because while, yes, EVENTUALLY it would have been replaced, if Warden hadn't gone there the army fighting the Darkspawn wouldn't have included EITHER the Templars or the Mages because they'd be stuck trying to contain the demons/abominations in the Tower or too weakened by that fight to be much good against the Darkspawn if they DID manage to clense the place without Warden's help.

Let me clarify: this is the DA2 endgame decision. Whatever you do, the end result (long term) is the same.

You didn't say clear out the tower: you said saved the mages.

Ultimately, it's a question of interpretation and extrapolation, but I think both of those items are more significant overall in terms of far-reaching consequences than anything Hawke managed.

I disagree.

[Ottemis]

Lord_Valandil wrote...

Ottemis wrote...
I wouldn't say it's poorly written overall but yeah improvements can always be made no?

For me, it is. Very poorly written, with lack of detail, lack of choices and full of holes.
But that's just the opinion of a cake.

hehe =) Hmm cake

[In Exile]

Dragoonlordz wrote...
P.s Sorry Exile but there is no comparrison as far as amount of plot affecting choices in DA2 (had less by far) compared to DAO (had much more). Personality affecting choices maybe debatable but plot is a big no no. Even Hawke never made the biggest choice in DA2, Anders did so you cannot (imho) attribute even that to Hawke.

Oh, I completely agree with you. I just think the impact of some DA:O choices is overstated and hinges on rhetoric.

[Dragoonlordz]

I wonder if Varric was ever taught the story of the little boy who cried wolf... Or Darkspawn.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 29 mai 2011 - 06:44 .

[Drax_Lyonsbane]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

It's the first step. The next one will be better. The one after that even more so.


Using purely hypothetical numbers, if BioWare can sell a million copies of a game using Dinosaur Game mechanics (like DAO/BG/NWN) and it takes them five years of time and effort, that game is a failure compared to one that sells 750,000 every 18 months.

Dinosaur game: 1million * $60 = $60 million for five years of time and effort
Fun RPG game: 750,000 * $60 = $45 million for a year and a half of time and effort.

In the time it took a company to make a dinosaur game, a second company could make three fun RPGs. That's $135 million for a fun RPG in the time it took a dinosaur game to make less than half the same amount of money. Guess which company is going to be hiring real actors to do voice work? Guess which company is going to be paying their talent better?

Guess which companies sales will plumet because they put out a game that most of their fan base does not like and will not buy the next installment of?


It's too early to call the "new vision" an enormous success, however I think it's going to be a long term success. We already know that the old formula is dying. There are barely any games like DAO or BG on the market anymore. Some guy posted a huge list in another thread trying to show how alive the RPG market is... but it was all hybrid games. RPGs need to change, RPGs have been changing, and DA2 is a great vision of what RPGs can be. It just needs another couple passes through the old buffing machine. (Also needs a central party management screen, have I ever mentioned that?)

A fun RPG like DA2 cuts out the stuff that bores the crap out of me. Bring on the fun RPGs. Bring on the huge sales. Bring on video games at the Oscars. Personally, I can't wait to see what comes next. :-D

For most fans this new vision of a "fun RPG like DA2" is boring as crap because BioWare cut out the parts that made DAO interesting and fun.
People are not inclined to pay $50 for an overly large DLC which could have been a decent expansion pack if a little more work had been done.


I'll be afk most of the day, so go ahead and put some time into calling me a BioDrone Troll. :-)

Well..there is that.

Most Bioware fans, like those from the BG days onward do not like DA2.
They see it as a tedious mess of linere FedEx tasks wrapped in pretty grafics that bores the ever living hell out of them and then angers them when they see THE ending.  I will be kind though, and make no mention of the continous loops they called dungeons and houses...

I pre ordered DA2 and managed to make one play through. I started a
second, just to execute a certain mage, only to turn it off half way
though and removed it from my machine, it simply wasn't worth the effort
in going through all of those FedEx tasks again.

I'm sure EA had a part in it but someone's vision of DA2 seemed to be to cram a go-kart engine into a Lambrogini and promote how fast it looks. Who ever was ultimately responsible for this "new vision" should never be allowed to have any directional input into another game unless it is Donkey Kong or some illiteration of Mario.

You can bet that a lot of us will not buy the next installment of this "new vision" until well after it has been played and reviewd by some other guini pig. We simply do not like being experimented on, particularly when we have to pay for the priviledge.

I don't mean to harsh with you or overly critical of BioWare, but your style and preference for game play is not something RPG fans will ever embrace.
Most of us wouldn't even play a true RPG on a console and  we certainly don't want some half assed console port that MS or Sony dictates what new content can be added to our game. We will make our own mods to suit or own goals and sensibilities.

Speaking of mods, I don't believe BioWare will release the construction set for DA2 nor the next chapter in the story. They simply do not want the modders making better DLCs for free while they try to make a living $3 or $ dollars a pop on things that are useful for a very short time in game, nerfed armor and weapons, can't say I fault them on that though, I would do the same if it were me.

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I mean I had Master Shiori just PM me saying that he never saw me being this distateful of a character, and I replied bluntly and perhaps rudely (and I apologise for that Shiori!). Because the story gets on my nerves that much.

Hence why I decided it was best to just not discuss Hawke with you. Kind of like discussing Geralt with me. 

Ok, I doubt my dislike for the platinum blonde freak is that big.

[Persephone]

Zjarcal wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I mean I had Master Shiori just PM me saying that he never saw me being this distateful of a character, and I replied bluntly and perhaps rudely (and I apologise for that Shiori!). Because the story gets on my nerves that much.

Hence why I decided it was best to just not discuss Hawke with you. Kind of like discussing Geralt with me. 

Ok, I doubt my dislike for the platinum blonde freak is that big.

Hehehehehehe. Well put. Platinum blonde? In TW2 the White Wolf was turned into the Grey Wolf......with scars and everything.