738 réponses à ce sujet

[Arrtis]

I rather just say in general DA2 was boring and empty.

[Dragoonlordz]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

I've stayed clear of AP for now due to how cumbersome the controls look and from what I have read. Might pick it up some day though.

Oh you definitely should! It's from the Black Isle Studios employees(Obsidian now). And it does the framed narrative justice, I feel. And there are severe consequences to you siding with different people.

I have only seen videos while back and looked bit hard to aim and control which put me off, sort of like Just Cause in that regard. I'll check for demos around XBL, Online and PSN when back up see what it's like if is any.

[adneate]

LobselVith8 wrote...
What does Hawke do in contrast? Does he use his financial gain to benefit the disenfranchised people of Darktown or the impoverished elves of the Alienage? Does he aid Bethany at the end of Act I despite knowing the dangers from "Tranquility"? The implication from the beginning of Act III is that Hawke hasn't done or said anything about an event that has caused unrest among the people, despite being seen as a hero and the Champion of Kirkwall. Even Aveline can call Hawke "a highwayman who stumbled onto being Champion."

That's exactly what made me come to loathe Hawke, she doesn't do a goddamn thing the whole game. Every single thing you do is in reaction to some smoldering situation you've known about for years that has finally boiled over. Hawke is either the laziest person to ever be given the role of "Champion" or a complete and utter idiot. You see the writing plain as day that the Qunari and the Templar/Mage conflict are going to boil over and engulf the city and even as Champion Hawke doesn't do one thing to stop it or influence the outcome. Hawke just watches it until it explodes and then after the fire is already out of control, reluctantly gets involved and still manages to screw that up too.

[LobselVith8]

In Exile wrote...

erynnar wrote...
Except I wasn't "hired" to get the urn. I may have gotten money as a result of retrieving it, but I had to get the Urn to save Eamon and save the world from the Blight. I wasn't hired to kill Jarvia. Bhelen held it over my head as a "i'll scratch your back if you scratch mine." He held the contrack with the Grey and his needed armies for the Blight over my head for that. So I wasn't a hired merc.

But it isn't a negotiation. However you want to cast it, it ends with them telling the Warden exactly what to do. What does the Warden actually instigate?

Yet there's room for The Warden to decide how to handle it. Does The Warden back the traditionalist Harrowmont, or the progressive Bhelen? Does The Warden aid Kolgrim, or defeat the Disciples of Andraste? How should the conflict regarding Connor be resolved? Should The Warden provide any assistance to the people of Redcliffe, or should they be abandoned? Does The Warden support Alistair as King, Anora as Queen, or both of them? Should Loghain be spared, or killed?

Even the royal boon at the end of Origins can promote change. The Hero of Ferelden can instigate a request for the mages in the Circle of Ferelden to be given their independence, and the new ruler of Ferelden can agree. As a national hero who is seen as being “blessed by the Maker,” the Hero stands in contrast to what the Chantry says about mages and magic.

[Arrtis]

adneate wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
What does Hawke do in contrast? Does he use his financial gain to benefit the disenfranchised people of Darktown or the impoverished elves of the Alienage? Does he aid Bethany at the end of Act I despite knowing the dangers from "Tranquility"? The implication from the beginning of Act III is that Hawke hasn't done or said anything about an event that has caused unrest among the people, despite being seen as a hero and the Champion of Kirkwall. Even Aveline can call Hawke "a highwayman who stumbled onto being Champion."

That's exactly what made me come to loathe Hawke, she doesn't do a goddamn thing the whole game. Every single thing you do is in reaction to some smoldering situation you've known about for years that has finally boiled over. Hawke is either the laziest person to ever be given the role of "Champion" or a complete and utter idiot. You see the writing plain as day that the Qunari and the Templar/Mage conflict are going to boil over and engulf the city and even as Champion Hawke doesn't do one thing to stop it or influence the outcome. Hawke just watches it until it explodes and then after the fire is already out of control, reluctantly gets involved and still manages to screw that up too.

Hawke isnt lazy....the people who made the game were.

[Rixxencaxx]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Corto81 wrote...

So why, at the same time, do you guys think it has elements that are a barrier to people?
Honest question.

Yes, I do. To use one example, I know that there are people who fire up a game like Origins, see either character generation or a big wall of stats to pick and they immediately turn it off again. I also am cognizant that there are people who see that big wall of stats and get really excited.

I believe that there are more of the former than the latter. It doesn't mean either side is wrong, and it sure as hell doesn't mean we should cut stats, it just means that, perhaps, opening the game with a big wall of them is not ideal.

I can see the lesson you learned from da2 failure....da3 will be as rpg as an fps could be.
Leave rpgs to cd project....witcher 2 is marvellous.
Good luck for your future from an ex customer

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I didn't feel moved by Leandra's death, either. KoP made the interesting point of mentioning how Hawke doesn't even investigate Quentin's accomplice (from the letter signed "O"). I guess Hawke wasn't moved by Leandra's death, too. It doesn't surprise me, since he doesn't seem to care about what happens to Bethany at the end of Act I, and never mentions it to Cullen in Act II.

It's less Hawke and more plot-induced stupidity, because the failure is on the part of the developers to allow us to do something rather than the character flying off rails outside of our control (as, say, one might argue with the paraphrase).

[Ottemis]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Alistairlover94 wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

I've stayed clear of AP for now due to how cumbersome the controls look and from what I have read. Might pick it up some day though.

Oh you definitely should! It's from the Black Isle Studios employees(Obsidian now). And it does the framed narrative justice, I feel. And there are severe consequences to you siding with different people.

I have only seen videos while back and looked bit hard to aim and control which put me off, sort of like Just Cause in that regard. I'll check for demos around XBL, Online and PSN when back up see what it's like if is any.

You can pick it up for about 10 euro's here for the PS3, well worth it I thought, even with the questionable reviews.
I've been planning to for some time now anyways =)

Modifié par Ottemis, 29 mai 2011 - 09:35 .

[tmp7704]

Rixxencaxx wrote...

I can see the lesson you learned from da2 failure....da3 will be as rpg as an fps could be.
Leave rpgs to cd project....witcher 2 is marvellous.
Good luck for your future from an ex customer

The Witcher 2 doesn't open with large screen of stats, either...

(it doesn't even have stats for that matter beyond what's altered by talents and gear)

Modifié par tmp7704, 29 mai 2011 - 09:36 .

[In Exile]

Brockololly wrote...
Well, I bet we won't see. More than likely Hawke and the Warden have gone the way of Revan and the Exile. Can't have the PC just go off and do their own thing, they have to mysteriously disappear. How much do you want to bet thats exactly what will happen to Shepard in ME3?

This is how Bioware does the ''use your imagination'' plot, since NWN. It was actually Obsidian that made Revan dissapear, though.

Modifié par In Exile, 29 mai 2011 - 09:35 .

[Dragoonlordz]

Arrtis wrote...

Hawke isnt lazy....the people who made the game were.

I don't think thats true tbh. I don't agree with the direction they took or seem to be taking still, also think that they sucked EA balls or lacked backbone to hold the product back until it was a dam sight more polished than what they released. Not enough content and some really bad decisions imho in the game mechanics and elements from bad time skipping cliché, to very limited level of interactions and many, many more things so many in fact could probably fill an A3 size document with size 1 font from top to bottom listing them but I don't think it was because was lazy just bad judgement.

There is one exception to this that isn't just bad judgement or design decisions though... Pushing the linear bottleneck approach because too lazy or not willing to invest enough time to cover the multitude of choices in the game when importing into the next. That is a bit lazy and if continue that way will end up like this if unchecked...

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 29 mai 2011 - 09:40 .

[erynnar]

Arrtis wrote...

Lord_Valandil wrote...

Arrtis wrote...

Well...I laughed a bit.

I find it amusing that you still have the Nug Exploding in your signature

Ya.....funny how it has a ton more views.

Okay I am with Auto on that, I too pressed the link/button and something awesome happened! I need a nug bomb in my fanfic....

[tmp7704]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

The Witcher 2 is an Action-RPG.

Yes, and you don't see people crying it's an FPS because of that, but to the contrary it's being presented as how the RPGs should be done in contrast of what BioWare seems to want. In this thread, anyway.

[Nerevar-as]

tmp7704 wrote...

Rixxencaxx wrote...

I can see the lesson you learned from da2 failure....da3 will be as rpg as an fps could be.
Leave rpgs to cd project....witcher 2 is marvellous.
Good luck for your future from an ex customer

The Witcher 2 doesn't open with large screen of stats, either...

Nor do Gothic, Risen, and others. If I want a RPG without stats I go to them.

The problem with those cathegories Laidlaw mentioned is you can alienate one without getting the other. For a lot of reasons DA2 seems to be doing that. I didn´t get DA2 for a bad mix of Dragon Age an Mass Effect, not geting hardly any of those games strenghts.

[Satyricon331]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Corto81 wrote...
So why, at the same time, do you guys think it has elements that are a barrier to people?
Honest question.

Yes, I do. To use one example, I know that there are people who fire up a game like Origins, see either character generation or a big wall of stats to pick and they immediately turn it off again. I also am cognizant that there are people who see that big wall of stats and get really excited.

I believe that there are more of the former than the latter. It doesn't mean either side is wrong, and it sure as hell doesn't mean we should cut stats, it just means that, perhaps, opening the game with a big wall of them is not ideal.

But then doesn't it just become a forced tutorial?

[erynnar]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Arrtis wrote...

Hawke isnt lazy....the people who made the game were.

I don't think thats true tbh. I don't agree with the direction they took or seem to be taking still, also think that they sucked EA balls or lacked backbone to hold the product back until it was a dam sight more polished than what they released. Not enough content and some really bad decisions imho in the game mechanics and elements from bad time skipping cliché, to very limited level of interactions and many, many more things so many in fact could probably fill an A3 size document with size 1 font from top to bottom listing them but I don't think it was because was lazy just bad judgement.

There is one exception to this that isn't just bad judgement or design decisions though... Pushing the linear bottleneck approach because too lazy or not willing to invest enough time to cover the multitude of choices in the game when importing into the next. That is a bit lazy and if continue that way will end up like this if unchecked...

I agree Dragoon, it wasn't laziness or lack of talent.

[Rixxencaxx]

tmp7704 wrote...

Rixxencaxx wrote...

I can see the lesson you learned from da2 failure....da3 will be as rpg as an fps could be.
Leave rpgs to cd project....witcher 2 is marvellous.
Good luck for your future from an ex customer

The Witcher 2 doesn't open with large screen of stats, either...

(it doesn't even have stats for that matter beyond what's altered by talents and gear)

i am not interested in games based on pushing the same button for 30 hours.
Dragon age 2 is all about mashing buttons. No need to think to use tactics.
I know that for the future they are targeting at button mashers so i am no more interested in bioware projects.

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Yet there's room for The Warden to decide how to handle it. Does The Warden back the traditionalist Harrowmont, or the progressive Bhelen? Does The Warden aid Kolgrim, or defeat the Disciples of Andraste? How should the conflict regarding Connor be resolved? Should The Warden provide any assistance to the people of Redcliffe, or should they be abandoned? Does The Warden support Alistair as King, Anora as Queen, or both of them? Should Loghain be spared, or killed?

I agree with you here. at least in terms of different outcomes. That's just the tremendous failure in DA2's implementation. I said this before, but I believe it comes out of an idea that what players what with respect to choice is to RP a motivation, not just see the outcome of their choice. But Bioware is wrong; players want both.

But you can do this in DA2 as well. It's just that DA2 turns around and shows you the middle finger in terms of the consequences of your choice, which destroys the feeling of satisfaction of having to make the decision in the first place.

Even the royal boon at the end of Origins can promote change. The Hero of Ferelden can instigate a request for the mages in the Circle of Ferelden to be given their independence, and the new ruler of Ferelden can agree. As a national hero who is seen as being “blessed by the Maker,” the Hero stands in contrast to what the Chantry says about mages and magic.

I agree with you, but I consider the boons as a separate implementation, because it follows from the difference between the cliffhanger ending of DA2 and the complete ending of DA:O.

[Wulfram]

My guess would be that the "O" letter was added late in development, after the dialogue and whatnot was recorded and fixed, because they realised that Orsino's transformation was coming too much out of nowhere.

[NKKKK]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

My Hawke could of saved her if wasn't for forced plot incompetence regarding not allowing my character to do the most basic natural thing... Ask 'about her boyfriend' given the long amount of time my Hawke knew about the dating and was forbidden to interact aka immersion breaking lack of dialogue... /sigh

I just got through chasing a guy who kills women, didn't catch him > find out she dating someone and over the years not allowed to enquire as to who shes dating... Then the cliché zombie plot.

Sorry but glad some people like it but for me it was rather lame way to handle it.

Which is why Chris Avellone>David Gaider.

Chris Avellone has done some silly **** as well, but yes. 

[In Exile]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

There is one exception to this that isn't just bad judgement or design decisions though... Pushing the linear bottleneck approach because too lazy or not willing to invest enough time to cover the multitude of choices in the game when importing into the next. That is a bit lazy and if continue that way will end up like this if unchecked...

But just think about - you have 5 plot threads from DA:O (let's say). Let's say that Bioware tries to be conservative, and they make a game that takes each of the 5 plots seriously and have 2 threads for each. Now DA3 has 10 plot threads to deal with. If each has 2 choices, then it's 20 plot threads for DA4.

It's combinatorially explosive. TW2 does the same thing. The issue isn't the choice bottleneck, but rather having enough variation in the middle that when you do branch out before the collapse, it feels as if the world is changing even though the effects are largely minimized and won't be revisited.

[erynnar]

tmp7704 wrote...

Alistairlover94 wrote...

The Witcher 2 is an Action-RPG.

Yes, and you don't see people crying it's an FPS because of that, but to the contrary it's being presented as how the RPGs should be done in contrast of what BioWare seems to want. In this thread, anyway.

Witcher 2 didn't stray from it's predecessor. It stayed true to it and improved it. I knew what I was getting, an action RPG.

DAO was a game with some action and more story, with the illusion of choices done so well, that I didn't feel like I was just along for the ride. DA2 strayed so far from that it was ridiculous. It dumped everything that made it's predecessor a great game, or watered it down so much it might as well have been dumped all together for all intents and purposes. It then tried to put on too many hats to appeal to different gamers, mix in the illusion of choice that slaps you in the face at the end, stir in liberally a disjointed story full of plot holes and viola!  

I expected changes from DAO. I expected a new story. I was thrilled it wasn't going to be my Warden, but someone new. I expected for what worked in DAO to be used, what was meh to be polished, and what didn't work to be tossed. Apparently what I thought worked was what BioWare thought was broken. And apprently (if sales are anything to go by) I was not alone in thinking what I got was not what I was expecting and even disappointing.

I do trust (with extreme caution) that they will figure it out and take what worked from both and make DA3 shine.

Edited because I can't spell for doody today!

Modifié par erynnar, 29 mai 2011 - 09:53 .