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erynnar wrote...
I may have cursed at my screen many times, and when I die, I hate it. But at the same time I love it too. Because I know that when I finally figure out how to kill the baddy I will feel epic. I kicked those two shade's asses and it felt GREAT Because I figured it out, I felt smart.
Serpieri Nei wrote...
Ariella wrote...
Serpieri Nei wrote...
Alistairlover94 wrote...
tmp7704 wrote...
The Witcher 2 doesn't open with large screen of stats, either...Rixxencaxx wrote...
I can see the lesson you learned from da2 failure....da3 will be as rpg as an fps could be.
Leave rpgs to cd project....witcher 2 is marvellous.
Good luck for your future from an ex customer
(it doesn't even have stats for that matter beyond what's altered by talents and gear)
The Witcher 2 is an Action-RPG.
It’s clear they wanted to make Dragon Age an action game with some RPG elements but for them to do that they would have to remove all active abilities/skill trees and adopt a combo system like in action games which wouldn't surprise me to see in DA3. Will this make me buy DA3, no I'll stick with the companies that have proven themselves in making those action games like Ubisoft, SCEA, Naughty Dog, and many others.
First of all DA2 already has class combos, and second, I don't see where it's obvious at all that Bioware wants to go from RPGs to action games. In fact what Mike said earlier in this thread is the exact opposite of that. The point is trying to open up a small market to a larger audience by showing them that some of the elements they already enjoy (builds and such) came from RPGs, which is a win win situation for the RPG consumer in the end because by opening up the market, there's more demand which will create even for choice of RPGs as other companies see it as a viable income source.
As for the point made about DA3 Mr. Laidlaw himself said they're trying to find a balance between what people liked in Origins and what people liked in DA2. That doesn't sound like a pure action game to me,
The repeated hits that change animations are not combos; they are a string of auto attacks. It doesn't matter what MIke posts, there’s an old saying "Actions Speak Louder than Words". And the direction DA has taken is quite clear. If Bioware wants to reach the larger market then I suggest they make an FPS or an action game instead of diluting their product. An RPG that no longer is an RPG is not win win for those that want to play RPG's, and as it has been said before if I want an action game or an FPS BIoware is not even in my top 10 for delivering that. Will Mike put his words to actions, we shall see until then I'm sure all the upcoming RPG titles and Origins will keep me entertained till then.
Ariella wrote...
And cross class combos aren't just a string of auto attacks. It takes advantage of two classes abilities to take down an enemy. Just an auto attack won't do, I've tried. It takes set up to pull off.
Zjarcal wrote...
erynnar wrote...
I may have cursed at my screen many times, and when I die, I hate it. But at the same time I love it too. Because I know that when I finally figure out how to kill the baddy I will feel epic. I kicked those two shade's asses and it felt GREAT Because I figured it out, I felt smart.
Funnily enough that's how I felt after dealing with many battles in DA2. Again, different likes for everyone I guess.
Guest_Alistairlover94_*
Zanallen wrote...
Cross-class combos were far from necessary, but they did make those high hp bosses go down a hell of a lot faster.
erynnar wrote...
Just glad we have choices!
Zanallen wrote...
Cross-class combos were far from necessary, but they did make those high hp bosses go down a hell of a lot faster.
Modifié par Zjarcal, 29 mai 2011 - 11:11 .
Mike Laidlaw wrote...
Corto81 wrote...
So why, at the same time, do you guys think it has elements that are a barrier to people?
Honest question.
Yes, I do. To use one example, I know that there are people who fire up a game like Origins, see either character generation or a big wall of stats to pick and they immediately turn it off again. I also am cognizant that there are people who see that big wall of stats and get really excited.
I believe that there are more of the former than the latter. It doesn't mean either side is wrong, and it sure as hell doesn't mean we should cut stats, it just means that, perhaps, opening the game with a big wall of them is not ideal.
Modifié par kingjezza, 29 mai 2011 - 11:17 .
cursedsei wrote...
Ariella, I never complained about character skill trees, or how one character should be restricted to a certain role. So tell me, what was the point in doing that?
And graphics were an actual issue, the style was generic fantasy, no butts about it.
That combo statement might of been misinterpreted though by the poster. But cross-class combos are far from complex or even necessary from what I've seen. Its fire and forget for me.
Zjarcal wrote...
erynnar wrote...
Just glad we have choices!
Hooray for that indeed!Zanallen wrote...
Cross-class combos were far from necessary, but they did make those high hp bosses go down a hell of a lot faster.
I don't know, taking down those annoying Assassin's as quickly as possible was necessary for my "unstoppable" run.
Ariella wrote...
Serpieri Nei wrote...
Ariella wrote...
Serpieri Nei wrote...
Alistairlover94 wrote...
tmp7704 wrote...
The Witcher 2 doesn't open with large screen of stats, either...Rixxencaxx wrote...
I can see the lesson you learned from da2 failure....da3 will be as rpg as an fps could be.
Leave rpgs to cd project....witcher 2 is marvellous.
Good luck for your future from an ex customer
(it doesn't even have stats for that matter beyond what's altered by talents and gear)
The Witcher 2 is an Action-RPG.
It’s clear they wanted to make Dragon Age an action game with some RPG elements but for them to do that they would have to remove all active abilities/skill trees and adopt a combo system like in action games which wouldn't surprise me to see in DA3. Will this make me buy DA3, no I'll stick with the companies that have proven themselves in making those action games like Ubisoft, SCEA, Naughty Dog, and many others.
First of all DA2 already has class combos, and second, I don't see where it's obvious at all that Bioware wants to go from RPGs to action games. In fact what Mike said earlier in this thread is the exact opposite of that. The point is trying to open up a small market to a larger audience by showing them that some of the elements they already enjoy (builds and such) came from RPGs, which is a win win situation for the RPG consumer in the end because by opening up the market, there's more demand which will create even for choice of RPGs as other companies see it as a viable income source.
As for the point made about DA3 Mr. Laidlaw himself said they're trying to find a balance between what people liked in Origins and what people liked in DA2. That doesn't sound like a pure action game to me,
The repeated hits that change animations are not combos; they are a string of auto attacks. It doesn't matter what MIke posts, there’s an old saying "Actions Speak Louder than Words". And the direction DA has taken is quite clear. If Bioware wants to reach the larger market then I suggest they make an FPS or an action game instead of diluting their product. An RPG that no longer is an RPG is not win win for those that want to play RPG's, and as it has been said before if I want an action game or an FPS BIoware is not even in my top 10 for delivering that. Will Mike put his words to actions, we shall see until then I'm sure all the upcoming RPG titles and Origins will keep me entertained till then.
First of all, I'd like to point out AGAIN, that a lot of the things that people are complaining about now came out of criticism (both fan and critics alike) of DAO (slowness of combat, generic story and gameplay and graphics). So rather than judging that changes in DA2 in a void, judge them in the same what Bioware had to, by looking at what fans and critics had to say that wasn't exactly glowing.
In the end they tried to answer those complaints, but ended up getting new ones. Finding the happy medium is going to take time, and I believe the mechanics are there to pull it off. But you can't judge the game in a void especially when said game designer had come out time and time again and commented they were going to address the complaints, and DID. They'll do it again here to.
And cross class combos aren't just a string of auto attacks. It takes advantage of two classes abilities to take down an enemy. Just an auto attack won't do, I've tried. It takes set up to pull off.
Modifié par Serpieri Nei, 29 mai 2011 - 11:18 .
Zjarcal wrote...
I don't know, taking down those annoying Assassin's as quickly as possible was necessary for my "unstoppable" run.
erynnar wrote...
Okay, off topic, but your icons always make me smile, and that new one makes me giggle! Okay back on topic....
Dave of Canada wrote...
Alistairlover94 wrote...
Simplified?
Having not played the first one much, I don't see where their arguments come from but what I understand is that they absolutely loathe the removal of stances and find everything more simplistic in terms of combat and execution. "It's dumbed down for consoles" and such.
If anything, the combat manages to be real-time, yet incredibly strategic, it even reminds me of Demon's Souls.
It's definitely more challenging than the first game.
Dave of Canada wrote...
I hate the difficulty curve of the game (which I've ranted about previously). Does the first game have the really horrible difficulty curve (Hard at the start, really easy at the end)?
Modifié par RageGT, 29 mai 2011 - 11:29 .
kingjezza wrote...
Mike Laidlaw wrote...
Corto81 wrote...
So why, at the same time, do you guys think it has elements that are a barrier to people?
Honest question.
Yes, I do. To use one example, I know that there are people who fire up a game like Origins, see either character generation or a big wall of stats to pick and they immediately turn it off again. I also am cognizant that there are people who see that big wall of stats and get really excited.
I believe that there are more of the former than the latter. It doesn't mean either side is wrong, and it sure as hell doesn't mean we should cut stats, it just means that, perhaps, opening the game with a big wall of them is not ideal.
I haven't read the thread much past this post but is this post serious?
There is nothing taxing or complicated about Origins character creator, I would suggest that people who can't handle a simple task like a fairly straight forward character creator at the start of the game wont really be people who will want to bother with one at any point, so you may as well remove it completely if this is your goal. I'm honestly baffled as to why you are so desperate to appeal to the sort of person who switches a game off because they can't be arsed to spend a few minutes creating a character at the start of the game, these people don't strike me as the type who will be wanting to play a fantasy RPG in the first place.
You believe there are more of the former than the latter and I'm telling you that you're wrong, I actually have more faith in the human race than that, I know kids these days like to be spoon fed as much as possible with as little work as possible but when we reach the point where the majority of people reach a simple character creation screen and say "this is far too taxing for me" and switch it off then I think we have hit rock bottom.
The sales and reviews of both games seems to back up the fact that people didn't really have a huge problem with Origins, or getting past and grasping it's hugly complex character creator like you have suggested. I've seen you make this type of sweeping statement before to try and back up your point and justify changes you have made, it doesn't really wash with me though, I would honestly love to know who these people are you speak of who went and bought Origins only to switch it off before they had got past the the character creation screen, c'mon, seriously
People not being able to handle stats certainly explains why the Football Manager games are so unpolular and never sell though though.
Ariella wrote...
cursedsei wrote...
Ariella, I never complained about character skill trees, or how one character should be restricted to a certain role. So tell me, what was the point in doing that?
And graphics were an actual issue, the style was generic fantasy, no butts about it.
That combo statement might of been misinterpreted though by the poster. But cross-class combos are far from complex or even necessary from what I've seen. Its fire and forget for me.
Taking comments in reverse. You're lucky they are fire and forget, On the PC for me, I can never time them quite right, and it drives me crazy.
I think with the skill trees they were trying for a less linear experience, so there were several ways to get to a skill rather than just going in a straight line, and thus picking up skills one isn't going to use.
As for the role, I really don't see that as being any different than origins, except you have access to other weapon styles once you had the main style maxed for NPCs. For me, I kept Alistar Sword and Board the entire time, because that what his stats and his skills were best suited to, Leliana was an archer etc... By just specializing the character in one weapon beforehand really isn't any different, plus it's a storytelling element through combat. A 2 handed weapon would appeal to Fenris because of his personality, less into protecting anyone at this point in his life than he is as killing what gets in his way. Fenris' motto could be: The best defense is a good offense."
Aveline isn't like that, her first thought is protection for herself and especially those around her, so her style of combat will drift toward weapon and shield. It's why she became a guardsman in the first place.
I could go on, but I think it'd just be going over the same ground. Basically it differentiates the characters, and there are still skills that are open to everyone in a class, so one can specialize the type of tactics companions use (Vangard and such)
Modifié par cursedsei, 29 mai 2011 - 11:31 .
Ariella wrote...
Bioware probably got the information from things like focus groups and telemery readings. I remember it being mentioned somewhere that 50% of game owners of Origins never finished the game beyond the Origin sequence.
And more experienced gamers tend to forget what an inexperience RPG gamer is going to do piror to saying "this is just too taxing". He's going to look at all these numbers and go: "what the heck does this all mean?" or "If I put this point in this stat, what does it do to my character?" It's enough to make a person who's not a numbers person, batty. It's also one of the reasons why I always liked the Shadowrun/WoD mechanic of dice pools rather than stats. but that's another thread.
Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 29 mai 2011 - 11:32 .
Ariella wrote.
Bioware probably got the information from things like focus groups and telemery readings. I remember it being mentioned somewhere that 50% of game owners of Origins never finished the game beyond the Origin sequence.
And more experienced gamers tend to forget what an inexperience RPG gamer is going to do piror to saying "this is just too taxing". He's going to look at all these numbers and go: "what the heck does this all mean?" or "If I put this point in this stat, what does it do to my character?" It's enough to make a person who's not a numbers person, batty. It's also one of the reasons why I always liked the Shadowrun/WoD mechanic of dice pools rather than stats. but that's another thread.
Dragoonlordz wrote...
Ariella wrote...
Bioware probably got the information from things like focus groups and telemery readings. I remember it being mentioned somewhere that 50% of game owners of Origins never finished the game beyond the Origin sequence.
And more experienced gamers tend to forget what an inexperience RPG gamer is going to do piror to saying "this is just too taxing". He's going to look at all these numbers and go: "what the heck does this all mean?" or "If I put this point in this stat, what does it do to my character?" It's enough to make a person who's not a numbers person, batty. It's also one of the reasons why I always liked the Shadowrun/WoD mechanic of dice pools rather than stats. but that's another thread.
As someone linked earlier there are also stats showing more than 50% of the DA2 (Xbox 360) players never completed DA2 either. So clearly imho if thats the case, simplification was not the issue.
kingjezza wrote...
Ariella wrote.
Bioware probably got the information from things like focus groups and telemery readings. I remember it being mentioned somewhere that 50% of game owners of Origins never finished the game beyond the Origin sequence.
And more experienced gamers tend to forget what an inexperience RPG gamer is going to do piror to saying "this is just too taxing". He's going to look at all these numbers and go: "what the heck does this all mean?" or "If I put this point in this stat, what does it do to my character?" It's enough to make a person who's not a numbers person, batty. It's also one of the reasons why I always liked the Shadowrun/WoD mechanic of dice pools rather than stats. but that's another thread.
Once again I would love to see the stats that show 50% of people never made it past the Origins section, but hey if they gave up then at least they made it past the charactor creator, Mike says there are a lot of people who couldn't even manage that.
Experienced RPG gamers, I hadn't played a game in years before Origins and I had never played any of Bioware's older games, there is really nothing complicated about Origins character creation even for somebody who is a RPG newb, if people can't be bothered to read a little box that pops up explaining what the things mean then that is in all honesty their problem, that says far more about them than the game itself.
Modifié par cursedsei, 29 mai 2011 - 11:41 .
Ariella wrote...
Bioware probably got the information from things like focus groups and telemery readings. I remember it being mentioned somewhere that 50% of game owners of Origins never finished the game beyond the Origin sequence.
And more experienced gamers tend to forget what an inexperience RPG gamer is going to do piror to saying "this is just too taxing". He's going to look at all these numbers and go: "what the heck does this all mean?" or "If I put this point in this stat, what does it do to my character?" It's enough to make a person who's not a numbers person, batty. It's also one of the reasons why I always liked the Shadowrun/WoD mechanic of dice pools rather than stats. but that's another thread.
Modifié par RageGT, 29 mai 2011 - 11:43 .
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