738 réponses à ce sujet

[neppakyo]

Merced652 wrote...

"The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers."

Some bro-love to you man. That quote is great.

Personally I hope DA2's combat is ditched, along with the wave combat. Wave combat should only be used where it makes sense, not for every single gods damned encounter. If you want body exploding, fliping, fancy sword moves.. make a final fantasy game.

Should of taken origins combat, fixed the shuffling, and colliding problems. Speed up the 2h warriors a bit more, keeping that ponderous feeling of landing a hit. And make misses actual misses. Not less damage hit.

I could go on in more details, but thats about all I think I need to add for now about that subject.

Oh, I like seeing a combat log like nwn1/2.

[Lumikki]

People don't assume so extreme situation everytime. Like it's between hard core classic RPG player and fanatic first person shooter player. There is a lot more people out there and even between them. Like example adventure game players. Situation is not so black and white.

Modifié par Lumikki, 29 mai 2011 - 04:37 .

[Ottemis]

Between the 'pure genre' fans there are no doubt tons of people that would be open to / would enjoy a hybrid if you ask me, the question is how do you entice them to try out your game.

Modifié par Ottemis, 29 mai 2011 - 04:41 .

[Aaleel]

Lumikki wrote...

People don't assume so extreme situation everytime. Like it's between hard core classic RPG player and fanatic first person shooter player. There is a lot more people out there and even between them. Like example adventure game players.

Bioware said they were going after the call of duty audience since the progression elements are similar, but they just don't look at them as RPGs.

[Mike Laidlaw]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

I find this response awkward. You respond to adneate's observation (which is shared by more fans) about simplification that the product has somehow "complexity and depth". And that the simplification is there for that new audience. You can't have it both ways: Complexity and simplicity are mutually exclusive.

They are, but I would argue that complexity can be added into an existing product. People hate when I draw this comparison, but the opening experience as a level 1 World of Warcraft character is significantly more simple than the experience as a raid-level character.

The game itself is complex, but the opening moments of it are not. I would argue that we did not do a good enough job of adding layers of complexity and challenge into the later stages of DAII, both in terms of combat and choice/consequence. Therefore we should do a better job of both in the future.

[Corto81]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

No, the end result is a product that has complexity and depth without a gigantic barrier to entry at the front so that someone who has never played an RPG before can gain those basic skillsets.

There is a middle ground between Origins and II.

What's the barrier? I mean, honest question, what do you guys (devs) see as a barrier in a game like Origins?
(NOTE: in this thread alone, there's a person stating they've never played RPGs before Origins, and they loved it)

I mean, to quote Gaider:" Origins sold awesomely, because it was an awesome game."

So why, at the same time, do you guys think it has elements that are a barrier to people?
Honest question.

RPGs used to be uncompromising in being.... RPGs.

And while Origins and games like Witcher 2 have engaging stories and challenge you to play better, DA2 feels like an MMO.
And not even a sandbox one at that. More like Rift or WoW - weak story, railroaded pointless quests.
Please don't go that way with your future games.
(so IMO , you're more likely to get sucked into an RPG with a Geralt or a Cousland, than the bland Hawke)

Modifié par Corto81, 29 mai 2011 - 04:41 .

[Mike Laidlaw]

Lumikki wrote...

People don't assume so extreme situation everytime. Like it's between hard core classic RPG player and fanatic first person shooter player. There is a lot more people out there and even between them. Like example adventure game players. Situation is not so black and white.

If anything, I think the people most likely to want to play an RPG, but who may not know it yet, are the folks who love the Rockstar games. They're clearly not turned off by character-driven narrative.

Some elements of the Call of Duty crowd, I imagine, would not be into DA, ever. Which is cool. People have preferences.

[Lumikki]

Aaleel wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

People don't assume so extreme situation everytime. Like it's between hard core classic RPG player and fanatic first person shooter player. There is a lot more people out there and even between them. Like example adventure game players.

Bioware said they were going after the call of duty audience since the progression elements are similar, but they just don't look at them as RPGs.

Question: Do you think there are people here in this forum who like to play RPG's and have also played Call of Duty?

Point is, it's not just one or other, there is a lot of different "gray" taste and some people have more wider taste too.

I'm old time RPG player and I can accept different style of games too. Even if I don't play FPS's for personal reasons.

Modifié par Lumikki, 29 mai 2011 - 04:45 .

[lobi]

Forget Dragon age it's dead, concentrate on Mass Effect for your pony's 'one trick'.

Modifié par lobi, 29 mai 2011 - 04:44 .

[Ottemis]

Corto81 wrote...
More like Rift or WoW - weak story

Ehh? Whatnow?

[Mike Laidlaw]

Corto81 wrote...

So why, at the same time, do you guys think it has elements that are a barrier to people?
Honest question.

Yes, I do. To use one example, I know that there are people who fire up a game like Origins, see either character generation or a big wall of stats to pick and they immediately turn it off again. I also am cognizant that there are people who see that big wall of stats and get really excited.

I believe that there are more of the former than the latter. It doesn't mean either side is wrong, and it sure as hell doesn't mean we should cut stats, it just means that, perhaps, opening the game with a big wall of them is not ideal.

[Persephone]

lobi wrote...

Forget Dragon age it's dead, concentrate on Mass Effect for your pony's 'one trick'.

Do NOT want. 

[Aaleel]

Lumikki wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

People don't assume so extreme situation everytime. Like it's between hard core classic RPG player and fanatic first person shooter player. There is a lot more people out there and even between them. Like example adventure game players.

Bioware said they were going after the call of duty audience since the progression elements are similar, but they just don't look at them as RPGs.

Question: Do you think there are people here in this forum who like to play RPG's and have also played Call of Duty?

Point is, it's not just one or other, there is a lot of different "gray" taste and some people have more wider taste too.

I play both, but I don't want a game that's a mix of the two, I like to play one or the other.  It's the whole Jack of all trades master of none thing.  Unless it's done perfectly, you lose too much of both when you try to make it appeal to different crowds.

[neppakyo]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...
Some elements of the Call of Duty crowd, I imagine, would not be into DA, ever. Which is cool. People have preferences.

Could probably safely say at least 80% of the CoD crowd wouldn't be into DA. They play for the multi-player, and for quick casual games, where talking gets in the way of killing things.

Mind you, I do occasionally play some CoD SP once in awhile, prefer a game more like STALKER.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Corto81 wrote...

What's the barrier? I mean, honest question, what do you guys (devs) see as a barrier in a game like Origins?
(NOTE: in this thread alone, there's a person stating they've never played RPGs before Origins, and they loved it)

Speaking for a couple of my friends, they didn't make it past their Origins to reach Ostagar because they found there was too much talking and not enough action.

And on the other side you'll have people who loved the talking, and think there wasn't nearly enough of it in the intro of DA2...but too much action.

So how can you please both crowds? :/

[Ottemis]

Aaleel wrote...
I play both, but I don't want a game that's a mix of the two, I like to play one or the other.  It's the whole Jack of all trades master of none thing.  Unless it's done perfectly, you lose too much of both when you try to make it appeal to different crowds.

I'd like to see them succeed =) I'd like to think it possible.

[Persephone]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Corto81 wrote...

So why, at the same time, do you guys think it has elements that are a barrier to people?
Honest question.

Yes, I do. To use one example, I know that there are people who fire up a game like Origins, see either character generation or a big wall of stats to pick and they immediately turn it off again. I also am cognizant that there are people who see that big wall of stats and get really excited.

I believe that there are more of the former than the latter. It doesn't mean either side is wrong, and it sure as hell doesn't mean we should cut stats, it just means that, perhaps, opening the game with a big wall of them is not ideal.

Well, I'm one of the latter.

How would you go on about not having the stats picking at the beginning? Have them evolve over time, choosing them based on game progress, in game decisions etc?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ottemis wrote...

Corto81 wrote...
More like Rift or WoW - weak story

Ehh? Whatnow?

Maybe not like WoW or rift, but I too think it had a weak story. Compared to other Bioware titles at least (other than ME2, though I felt the writing was slightly better than DA2).

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 29 mai 2011 - 04:49 .

[Esbatty]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Corto81 wrote...

What's the barrier? I mean, honest question, what do you guys (devs) see as a barrier in a game like Origins?
(NOTE: in this thread alone, there's a person stating they've never played RPGs before Origins, and they loved it)

Speaking for a couple of my friends, they didn't make it past their Origins to reach Ostagar because they found there was too much talking and not enough action.

And on the other side you'll have people who loved the talking, and think there wasn't nearly enough of it in the intro of DA2...but too much action.

So how can you please both crowds? :/

You can put in the option to skip dialogue and an option to skip combat and suddenly you end up with a save game generator that spits out achievements.

[neppakyo]

Ottemis wrote...

Aaleel wrote...
I play both, but I don't want a game that's a mix of the two, I like to play one or the other.  It's the whole Jack of all trades master of none thing.  Unless it's done perfectly, you lose too much of both when you try to make it appeal to different crowds.

I'd like to see them succeed =) I'd like to think it possible.

The closest they got was ME2, as it is most people consider it RPG-lite, and more of a shooter.

Personally Im with Aleel. I don't want DA a mix of the two.

[_Aine_]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Corto81 wrote...

So why, at the same time, do you guys think it has elements that are a barrier to people?
Honest question.

Yes, I do. To use one example, I know that there are people who fire up a game like Origins, see either character generation or a big wall of stats to pick and they immediately turn it off again. I also am cognizant that there are people who see that big wall of stats and get really excited.

I believe that there are more of the former than the latter. It doesn't mean either side is wrong, and it sure as hell doesn't mean we should cut stats, it just means that, perhaps, opening the game with a big wall of them is not ideal.

Hmmmm.  
Well. part of me gets you. Part of me says "So?" 
If it is a new genre for them, wouldn't they expect some level of learning curve? I know I did when I picked up DA:O. I got it too. THAT was a huge part of the appeal.  It wasn't easy. So much is so easy these days.  

Look at MMO:  they are all stats and skills and levels and advancement.  People play them in droves.  They aren't simplified to running and bonking things in the head without learning that strength does one thing and wisdom does another.  

True, the beginning of wow is much simpler than the end.  BUT, the complexity RELATIVE to the knowledge at the time is probably similar at both stages. Sure it is more complex at the end, but you have the experience by being *forced to adapt and learn* early on.  

Making it FUN to learn and adapt is the trick, not simplifying it so there isn't that forced adaption.  IMHO

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Corto81 wrote...

So why, at the same time, do you guys think it has elements that are a barrier to people?
Honest question.

Yes, I do. To use one example, I know that there are people who fire up a game like Origins, see either character generation or a big wall of stats to pick and they immediately turn it off again. I also am cognizant that there are people who see that big wall of stats and get really excited.

Would there perhaps be an option for such players to have a 'Pre-generated Character' option, which automatically assigns stats based on class? Auto progression is nothing new, but I don't know about the programming involved.

[Ottemis]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ottemis wrote...

Corto81 wrote...
More like Rift or WoW - weak story

Ehh? Whatnow?

Maybe not like WoW or rift, but I also think it had a weak story. Compared to other Bioware titles at least (other than ME2, though I felt the writing was slightly better than DA2).

Yeah I was specificly quoting that bit because I've played both games and I really do-not agree with him. I mean, AT ALL.. especially in the case of WoW. Anyways, sidetrack.

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ottemis wrote...

Corto81 wrote...
More like Rift or WoW - weak story

Ehh? Whatnow?

Maybe not like WoW or rift, but I too think it had a weak story. Compared to other Bioware titles at least (other than ME2, though I felt the writing was slightly better than DA2).

Well, I liked DAII's story (Mainly its potential, Act III dashed a lot) much more than DAO's or NWN's. And both ME's. *Hides quickly before the rotten eggs start flying*

[Everwarden]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...
and it sure as hell doesn't mean we should cut stats,

But that's exactly what you did. Giving gear a two stat requirement forces using those stats, essentially removing stats entirely. 

Modifié par Everwarden, 29 mai 2011 - 04:51 .