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Anders' Bomb - Is It Truly Magical?

Débuté par Guest_iOnlySignIn_* , mai 29 2011 01:16

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#51
Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
Posté 29 mai 2011 - 05:36

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Sigh. Has no one here ever seen a double explosion firecracker?

I'll explain it simply: the bomb (which I successfully made when I was 7 years old) has 2 chambers. The lower chamber has a loose bottom and ignites first, propelling the bomb upwards. After some time the fuse burns through to the top chamber, which explodes in all directions mid air.

This is an example of a double explosion firecracker. You don't need magic for that. It has been made in China for centuries as an entertainment.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 29 mai 2011 - 05:38 .

#52
Sajuro
Posté 29 mai 2011 - 05:39

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iOnlySignIn wrote...

Sigh. Has no one here ever seen a double explosion firecracker?

I'll explain it simply: the bomb (which I successfully made when I was 7 years old) has 2 chambers. The lower chamber has a loose bottom and ignites first, propelling the bomb upwards. After some time the fuse burns through to the top chamber, which explodes in all directions mid air.

This is an example of a double explosion firecracker. You don't need magic for that. It has been made in China for centuries as an entertainment.

So did they cut out before the part with the glowing columns of light?

#53
Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
Posté 29 mai 2011 - 05:42

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Sajuro wrote...

So did they cut out before the part with the glowing columns of light?

Pardon me, but I don't follow you? Who're 'they'? And what do you mean 'cut out'?

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 29 mai 2011 - 05:42 .

#54
Sajuro
Posté 29 mai 2011 - 05:48

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iOnlySignIn wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

So did they cut out before the part with the glowing columns of light?

Pardon me, but I don't follow you? Who're 'they'? And what do you mean 'cut out'?

The video you linked to, the main reason I think it is magical in part is those columns, I was asking if they ended the video before then.

#55
Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
Posté 29 mai 2011 - 05:59

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^ You do see a sort of "column" if you pause at 0:01 of the video. It's the part where the first chamber goes off and propels the bomb upwards.

If you watch fireworks/know something about fireworks, you'll know it's pretty easy to come up with the visual effects similar to Anders's bomb using just explosives.

And hell, the man studied for like 3 years to design and build that bomb. I'd be disappointed if there weren't any colorful beams of light.

Also, "somebody sets up us the bomb".

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 29 mai 2011 - 06:00 .

#56
Guest_Puddi III_*
Posté 29 mai 2011 - 06:01

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It's not just a pretty firework, it disintegrates the Chantry and suspends it in a ball in midair. Fireworks don't do that.

#57
Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
Posté 29 mai 2011 - 06:05

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Filament wrote...

It's not just a pretty firework, it disintegrates the Chantry and suspends it in a ball in midair. Fireworks don't do that.

^ Death and destruction is only a minor byproduct of Terrorism. The main goal of Terrorists is to make a statement, and for that they need dramatic visual effect. That is why they target iconic buildings. That is why Anders's bomb is at least as much a fireworks display as it is a weapon.

#58
Guest_Puddi III_*
Posté 29 mai 2011 - 06:09

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I'm talking about the cause, not the effect. You're saying he used two stage explosive like some kind of firework, but no explosives we have even with modern technology will do what his bomb did to the Chantry.

#59
Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
Posté 29 mai 2011 - 06:20

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^ What are you talking about? Our modern technology includes fusion bombs, which can level entire metropolitan areas, let alone a single building. The ancient Chinese invented gunpowder in the 11th century and have been building more and more elaborate fireworks since then. My estimate is that the Thedas of Dragon Age is comparable to around 15th, 16th century Europe (early Renaissance).

#60
Guest_Puddi III_*
Posté 29 mai 2011 - 06:29

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It didn't just destroy the building, it destroyed it in an obviously magical way. I'm not saying we don't have bombs that can destroy buildings.

Modifié par Filament, 29 mai 2011 - 06:29 .

#61
HSHAW
Posté 29 mai 2011 - 06:31

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iOnlySignIn wrote...

^ What are you talking about? Our modern technology includes fusion bombs, which can level entire metropolitan areas, let alone a single building. The ancient Chinese invented gunpowder in the 11th century and have been building more and more elaborate fireworks since then. My estimate is that the Thedas of Dragon Age is comparable to around 15th, 16th century Europe (early Renaissance).


I think he means that we (modern Earth) don't have any bombs that work by floating in midair and drawing objects towards them.

#62
Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
Posté 29 mai 2011 - 06:38

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Advanced pyrotechnics. Slow motion camera. Varric's habitual exaggeration. Details... [grumbles dismissively]

Honestly, why does everything extraordinary have to be Magical? For one thing, we have fireworks IRL that comes pretty close to what Anders's bomb does (everything except the drawing objects towards them part). For another, all the Magic that we know about in Thedas does NOTHING even closely resembling it.

You say that there are differences between Anders's bomb and a real life double-explosion firecracker. Sure, but the difference between Anders's bomb and a Mage's Fireball is even greater. So why must it be extremely extraordinary Magic, instead of somewhat extraordinary explosives?

It's like in Star Wars, anything that can't be explained by logic is due to The Force. Why can't Uncle George admit that the relevant Jedi/Sith was simply drunk that day and simply did something stupid? Why must it always be The Force?

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 29 mai 2011 - 06:42 .

#63
Jedi Master of Orion
Posté 29 mai 2011 - 06:46

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It could be that's just how those respective stories go? That particular extraordinary thing was obviously supposed to be magical based, especially since they live in a medieval fantasy setting. The extraordinary things are probably going to be caused by magic because it's really the only thing that has the ability to cause extraordinary things in that environment. Qunari explosives are just supposed to be regular gunpowder.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 29 mai 2011 - 06:48 .

#64
Guest_Puddi III_*
Posté 29 mai 2011 - 06:48

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Um, no, it would have to be an extremely extraordinary nonmagical firework to pretty much break the laws of physics tearing up a building as shown, whereas magic could much more plausibly take a building apart (some sort of disintegration spell) and pull it all into a big ball in the sky (like a very large pull of the abyss).

Now, if you want to say it was a Varrically enhanced nonmagical explosive, that's plausible... or maybe it was just overly flashy in keeping with other unrealistic things like the combat animations.... but I'd prefer the latter not to be the explanation. I can suspend disbelief for the coolness factor to an extent, but not to the extent of them trying to tell me the destruction of the Chantry as shown was mundane.

#65
Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
Posté 29 mai 2011 - 06:50

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Filament wrote...

Um, no, it would have to be an extremely extraordinary nonmagical firework to pretty much break the laws of physics tearing up a building as shown, whereas magic could much more plausibly take a building apart (some sort of disintegration spell) and pull it all into a big ball in the sky (like a very large pull of the abyss).


Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

That particular extraordinary thing was obviously supposed to be magical based, especially since they live in a medieval fantasy setting. The extraordinary things are probably going to be caused by magic because it's really the only thing that has the ability to cause extraordinary things int hat environment.

Genre Savvy, aren't we. :lol:

You're absolutely right. Perhaps I'm too much of a Sci-Fi person to make unbiased observations regarding lore in a medieval fantasy. Or at the very least, I'm using Occam's Razor wrong. In a medieval fantasy setting, Magic is the easiest and most straightforward explanation. Anything else just complicates things unnecessarily.

:?

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 29 mai 2011 - 06:54 .

#66
HSHAW
Posté 29 mai 2011 - 07:11

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iOnlySignIn wrote...

Advanced pyrotechnics. Slow motion camera. Varric's habitual exaggeration. Details... [grumbles dismissively]

Honestly, why does everything extraordinary have to be Magical? For one thing, we have fireworks IRL that comes pretty close to what Anders's bomb does (everything except the drawing objects towards them part). For another, all the Magic that we know about in Thedas does NOTHING even closely resembling it.

You say that there are differences between Anders's bomb and a real life double-explosion firecracker. Sure, but the difference between Anders's bomb and a Mage's Fireball is even greater. So why must it be extremely extraordinary Magic, instead of somewhat extraordinary explosives?

It's like in Star Wars, anything that can't be explained by logic is due to The Force. Why can't Uncle George admit that the relevant Jedi/Sith was simply drunk that day and simply did something stupid? Why must it always be The Force?


Force mages say hi.

#67
Mightyg
Posté 29 mai 2011 - 07:18

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Honestly I'm thinking they originally intended the explosion to be red lyrium detonated in the deep roads beneath the city. However they probably didn't have the time to work that all in logically. Hence the silly collecting quest.

#68
Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
Posté 29 mai 2011 - 07:23

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HSHAW wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...
For another, all the Magic that we know about in Thedas does NOTHING even closely resembling it.

Force mages say hi.

(1) Anders is not a Force Mage.

(2) The Force-Mage like effects is only a minor part of the explosion. The major part is the light columns of death, which resembles no Magic we see in Thedas. Magic in Thedas are mostly Elemental, and Fireballs, Chain Lightnings, etc. resemble the natural element they derive from (an actual wildfire, an actual lightning, etc.). Anders's bomb looks extremely artificial, which means that it's very likely technology based, rather than Magic based.

Now if the bomb is made by Merrill, who is a Keeper, its effect could be massive trees suddenly growing out of the ground tearing the Chantry to pieces with their roots and branches. THAT would be obviously Magic, not Anders's bomb. Anders's bomb has no resemblance or relation whatsoever to his Magical abilities, and it requires mineral ingredients, which is typical of an explosive.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 29 mai 2011 - 07:24 .

#69
Guest_Puddi III_*
Posté 29 mai 2011 - 07:37

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It resembles the magic the lyrium idol is shown to possess. Red destructive energy. Meredith and the Rock Wraith shoot that stuff all over the place, it hurts people. Might be related to demons, the Fade, blood magic, dunno. It's a mystery.

We do start gathering "corrupted lyrium" as a crafting resource as well, so maybe that was a component of his bomb.

Modifié par Filament, 29 mai 2011 - 07:38 .

#70
HSHAW
Posté 29 mai 2011 - 07:51

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iOnlySignIn wrote...

HSHAW wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...
For another, all the Magic that we know about in Thedas does NOTHING even closely resembling it.

Force mages say hi.

(1) Anders is not a Force Mage.

(2) The Force-Mage like effects is only a minor part of the explosion. The major part is the light columns of death, which resembles no Magic we see in Thedas. Magic in Thedas are mostly Elemental, and Fireballs, Chain Lightnings, etc. resemble the natural element they derive from (an actual wildfire, an actual lightning, etc.). Anders's bomb looks extremely artificial, which means that it's very likely technology based, rather than Magic based.

Now if the bomb is made by Merrill, who is a Keeper, its effect could be massive trees suddenly growing out of the ground tearing the Chantry to pieces with their roots and branches. THAT would be obviously Magic, not Anders's bomb. Anders's bomb has no resemblance or relation whatsoever to his Magical abilities, and it requires mineral ingredients, which is typical of an explosive.


#1: I pointed out Force magic to make a point that Magic that can do what the bomb did exists.

#2: Primal (Fire, Ice, Lightning etc) is only one school of magic, there's still Creation, Entropy and Spirit to draw from.

#3: It looks more like a large scale application of the same thing Mages use when they fire Arcane Bolt.

#71
EmperorSahlertz
Posté 29 mai 2011 - 08:34

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Anyone bothering with just looking at how the explosion disintergrates, instead of just ripping apart, the Chantry, and levitate the debris midair for a few seconds, would know that it was magical in nature.

#72
kromify
Posté 29 mai 2011 - 10:09

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i think that while the bomb was at it's core non-magical, anders had a very useful skill in possessing magic that he would have been silly to ignore. he would have enhanced the bomb.

#73
Wulfram
Posté 29 mai 2011 - 10:14

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"I took a spirit into my soul and changed myself forever to achieve this"

Not "I studied chemistry to achieve this"

#74
Jugo616
Posté 29 mai 2011 - 10:31

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So... Lets see how it all happened - beam of energy imploded the chantry, lifted it to the sky and shot the ruble out of the city in a near perfect circle.
Nope, no kind of normal bombs do that.

#75
Zanallen
Posté 29 mai 2011 - 10:33

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The dwarves use lyrium bombs, don't they? While the Qunari use some form of gunpowder. Not sure what the Tevinters had access to. We know that the Qunari have access to cannons, which means they can probably make flame throwers too.
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