59 réponses à ce sujet

[WeRtheBrox]

I recently read this article at greywardens.com arguing against the notion that our choices in DA2 don't matter the way they do in Origins, and I have to say that I agree with the author -- whatever choices we make along the way, in either game, lead us to the same conclusion.  So I began to wonder, why are there so many complaints about DA2 that claim otherwise?  I believe I may have the answer:  the epilogues.

Origins gives us the results of many of our choices before the credits roll.  Bhelen is a progessive ruler.  Teagan marries Bella.  Wynne and Shale go to Tevinter.  That dragon you tiptoed past in Haven destroys the sanctuary of the Sacred Ashes.  Or, completely different things occur.  It's all right there, spelled out for us in an omnipotent fashion.

DA2's epilogues are much more vague.  We hardly know anything when the credits roll, except that the Circles are in revolt and Hawke is gone.  It makes perfect sense, from a narrative standpoint -- Varric is telling Cassandra what she wants to know.  She doesn't care that Macha wound up at The Blooming Rose because her brother Keran died fighting Meredith at the Gallows.  And Varric isn't omnipotent -- he doesn't know that Feynriel's refusal to use blood magic in Tevinter is causing a stir, but no one dares move against him because he can kill them in their dreams.  Maybe Varric does know that Gamlen cleaned up his act after meeting his daughter and he's living at the Amell estate again, but he didn't mention it.  Or, completely different things occur.  We just haven't been told.

So, let's all ease up a bit on this particular point, shall we?  Your choices do matter.  Use your imagination, or wait for DA3 and buy a night with Macha if you stop at the Blooming Rose.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

The archdemon always dies in DA:O, but not always in the same manner.

Loghain can do it.
Alistair can do it.
You can do it.
The one who does do it can live or die depending on Morrigan.
The *manner* in which Loghain and Alistair do it can depend on your relationship with them.
You can end the game with a funeral instead of a celebration, which is the same conclusion for the archdemon perhaps, but not the PC.

In DA2, Hawke always kills Orsino. Hawke always lands the blow that sees Meredith stagger back and get petrified. No matter who you side with, the Circles always 'set the world on fire' and Hawke always lives.

It's not only about the epilogues. How the game ends *does* vary in DA:O, and the game makes us feel like we had some kind of say in that. The only constants are that the archdemon is dead and Morrigan disappears.

[Tommy6860]

@ Shadow, But doesn't only the PC do the final kill cutscene when slaying the Archdemon? I admit, as many times as I have played Origins, I have never had a different cutscene ending. I have had Leliana kill the AD before as well.

Modifié par Tommy6860, 29 mai 2011 - 01:49 .

[CalJones]

Yes, any of your companions in Origins can land the killing blow on the AD (and go for the bronco ride) but then the final cutscene features the warden (or Loghain, or Alistair) performing the coup de grace.

[Korusus]

WeRtheBrox wrote...

So, let's all ease up a bit on this particular point, shall we?  Your choices do matter.  Use your imagination, or wait for DA3

Wait...what?  Aren't those mutually exclusive?  Wouldn't it be more accurate to say "Your choices absolutely do not matter in DA2, but may or may not matter in a future DLC or sequel that may or may not have a well-implemented import feature."  If I have to use my imagination in order to have any sense of meaning to my choices, then David Gaider is falling down on the job.  And as the first reply to this thread mentioned, the choices in DA:O go beyond just the epilogue so that's not a valid point.  After all there's a wide gap between sacrificing yourself to save the world and becoming king with an illegitimate demon baby instead.  Both of those happen before the epilogue.

I think I'll choose to believe Mike Laidlaw when he says that "significance of choice" is something that they need to work on for future installments.

As to the framed narrative and unreliable narrator, I've seen them used as an excuse for a lot of shortcomings in the story, to which I say then it's not worth continuing to use it in the future.  It was an interesting direction to go in, but the downsides seem to far outweigh the novelty factor.

[Brockololly]

The problem with DA2 with respect to choice/consequence was that it was said over and over again how the framed narrative and ten year time span would make it so as you went along, you'd essentially have the epilogue slides pop as you went along the game, having your choices manifest in consequences along the way.

Yet when just about everything ends up the same way no matter what you do, whats the point? I think most people thought the framed narrative would allow for greater reactivity and divergence in the middle of the story, like The Witcher 2 or Alpha Protocol. But what you got was more like: -
-Make choice in Act 1
-Consequence to choice from Act 1 shows up in one size fits all form in Act 2

And I have a really hard time thinking that we'll ever get any meaningful consequences from import data, like the whole Dark Ritual/OGB choice. Like everything else, I'm sure that will get Plot Hammered into a one size fits all plot element if they ever do anything with it at all in any meaningful way. BioWare just seems intent on not creating any meaningful amount of content that can't be seen by everyone. Problem is, if you want to have meaningful choice/consequence in games, you have to create unique content, like in TW2 having the second Act in entirely different areas depending on your choice in Act 1.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Brockololly wrote...
And I have a really hard time thinking that we'll ever get any meaningful consequences from import data, like the whole Dark Ritual/OGB choice. Like everything else, I'm sure that will get Plot Hammered into a one size fits all plot element if they ever do anything with it at all in any meaningful way.

You know what is the most meaningless choice that will never be explored short of a small codex?
Following Morrigan in the mirror.

[TJPags]

We know nothing in DA2 when the credits roll. We knew when the game STARTED that the Circles were in revolt and that Hawke was missing. So what Varric told Cassandra at the end is exactly what we knew in the beginning.

Choices we make in DA2 don't matter in DA2. Maybe the choices will matter in DA3, but in a meaningful way? I doubt it. Just look at the whole OGB situation from DAO - do you really think they're going to make two entirely different games, one for people who did the DR, and one for those who didn't? Nope.

There may be a cameo (as with people like Zev) or there may be a random encounter (as with the Harrowmounts being hunted) or there may be a gossip mention (as with pigeons dying in Ferelden) but something meaningful? I doubt it.

It's the problem with making a player choice so significant. But you know what? I'd still rather have player choice be significant.

And telling me I have choice, but that I have to use my imagination to know what the result is, that's terrible. And saying I have to go buy the next game to find out how what I did mattered is even worse.

[Brockololly]

TJPags wrote...
It's the problem with making a player choice so significant. But you know what? I'd still rather have player choice be significant.

And telling me I have choice, but that I have to use my imagination to know what the result is, that's terrible. And saying I have to go buy the next game to find out how what I did mattered is even worse.

I'm going to be that guy though and say The Witcher 2 did it. The entire second act of the game is set in an entirely different area depending on a choice you make. So the only way to see the other big area would be to play the game again and make a different choice. Thats pretty awesome.

Taking the example of Morrigan and the OGB, its the same deal- if something like that gets relegated to a dinky codex entry or cameo....bleh. Depending on what the story is doing, I'm fine with not seeing content or seeing content based on choices I make in game- it gives me that much more incentive to play the game over again and make a different choice and experience new content.

[Wulfram]

I don't think you need an epilogue to see many of the choices in DA:O as big. Picking 2 monarchs, deciding the fate of the anvil, ending a centuries old curse, preserving the soul of an old god or dieing in glory. Those all speak for themselves.

There's little that compares in DA2 - the big differences seem to be whether the Arishok lived, and whether Merrill's clan committed "suicide by Hawke".

Fundamentally, I'd expect Kirkwall after DA2 to be virtually the same in all my Hawke's universes, whereas I'd expect Ferelden to have some quite significant differences depending on the Warden's actions. Though from a practical point of view, that also means that it will be a lot more practical for Bioware to write a sequel set in Kirkwall than in Ferelden.

Modifié par Wulfram, 29 mai 2011 - 05:13 .

[TJPags]

Brockololly wrote...

TJPags wrote...
It's the problem with making a player choice so significant. But you know what? I'd still rather have player choice be significant.

And telling me I have choice, but that I have to use my imagination to know what the result is, that's terrible. And saying I have to go buy the next game to find out how what I did mattered is even worse.

I'm going to be that guy though and say The Witcher 2 did it. The entire second act of the game is set in an entirely different area depending on a choice you make. So the only way to see the other big area would be to play the game again and make a different choice. Thats pretty awesome.

Taking the example of Morrigan and the OGB, its the same deal- if something like that gets relegated to a dinky codex entry or cameo....bleh. Depending on what the story is doing, I'm fine with not seeing content or seeing content based on choices I make in game- it gives me that much more incentive to play the game over again and make a different choice and experience new content.

Well, I've never played TW2 (console guy here).  But if they did that, very cool on them.

Sure, it can be done.  However, from what I saw of DA2 and the impact choices from DAO had on it, it doesn't seem BW is inclined to do it.  The fact that they placed DA2 in Kirkwall also says to me, they did not want to have to deal with the effect of various choices from DAO in a big way.  Seeing things like Anders being a GW no matter what, Leli being alive no matter what, these also tell me that BW simply doesn't have the inclination to deal with variety in that way.

Now, maybe some of this was development time (I have no idea how long TW2 spent in development, and I sure don't want to start getting into "EA is teh debil and made them rush it omgz!!"), maybe some of this was simply the story they wanted to tell in DA2.  But this is how I see it, its my opinion, it sure could turn out to be wrong.  But that's the impression I walk away with.

[EmperorSahlertz]

TJPags wrote...

We know nothing in DA2 when the credits roll. We knew when the game STARTED that the Circles were in revolt and that Hawke was missing. So what Varric told Cassandra at the end is exactly what we knew in the beginning.

Choices we make in DA2 don't matter in DA2. Maybe the choices will matter in DA3, but in a meaningful way? I doubt it. Just look at the whole OGB situation from DAO - do you really think they're going to make two entirely different games, one for people who did the DR, and one for those who didn't? Nope.

There may be a cameo (as with people like Zev) or there may be a random encounter (as with the Harrowmounts being hunted) or there may be a gossip mention (as with pigeons dying in Ferelden) but something meaningful? I doubt it.

It's the problem with making a player choice so significant. But you know what? I'd still rather have player choice be significant.

And telling me I have choice, but that I have to use my imagination to know what the result is, that's terrible. And saying I have to go buy the next game to find out how what I did mattered is even worse.

I' confident that wetehr or not you did Morrigan's ritual is going to have a major impact on the storyline down the road. BioWare seems fully intend on letting choices have large scale long term consequences.

::Spoilers from Mass Effect::
For instances if you let the Rachni Queen live on Noveria. The Rachni will aid you in Mass Effect 3, but you have also given the Reapers a powerful race for them to indoctrinate. All of it depends on wether or not you made a single choice, in the first game, where you didn't know a lot of what was going on.

So yes, I'm confident that BioWare fully intends for us to feel major impacts, based on seemingly small choices.

[Sidney]

Yeah the fact that X didn't appear in DA2 doesn't mean it won't re-appear in 3. The Rachni is a great example of something that more or less vanished in ME2. You almost wonder given the comments about both the Warden and Champion vanishing if both might not return? Could they wrap both people into the same game even if not at the same time - a bad example but along the lines of how you'd "jump" from protagonist to protagonist in RE at times?

[TJPags]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

TJPags wrote...

We know nothing in DA2 when the credits roll. We knew when the game STARTED that the Circles were in revolt and that Hawke was missing. So what Varric told Cassandra at the end is exactly what we knew in the beginning.

Choices we make in DA2 don't matter in DA2. Maybe the choices will matter in DA3, but in a meaningful way? I doubt it. Just look at the whole OGB situation from DAO - do you really think they're going to make two entirely different games, one for people who did the DR, and one for those who didn't? Nope.

There may be a cameo (as with people like Zev) or there may be a random encounter (as with the Harrowmounts being hunted) or there may be a gossip mention (as with pigeons dying in Ferelden) but something meaningful? I doubt it.

It's the problem with making a player choice so significant. But you know what? I'd still rather have player choice be significant.

And telling me I have choice, but that I have to use my imagination to know what the result is, that's terrible. And saying I have to go buy the next game to find out how what I did mattered is even worse.

I' confident that wetehr or not you did Morrigan's ritual is going to have a major impact on the storyline down the road. BioWare seems fully intend on letting choices have large scale long term consequences.

::Spoilers from Mass Effect::
For instances if you let the Rachni Queen live on Noveria. The Rachni will aid you in Mass Effect 3, but you have also given the Reapers a powerful race for them to indoctrinate. All of it depends on wether or not you made a single choice, in the first game, where you didn't know a lot of what was going on.

So yes, I'm confident that BioWare fully intends for us to feel major impacts, based on seemingly small choices.

Right, okay, that's wonderful.  Never played ME or ME2.

No matter, as I said before - giving me choices that don't matter in the game I'm playing is beyond terrible.  Telling me I have to go buy the next game to see the results of the game I just played?  That's like selling me a novel, one chapter at a time, only making me pay full price for each.

[Morroian]

Sidney wrote...

Yeah the fact that X didn't appear in DA2 doesn't mean it won't re-appear in 3. The Rachni is a great example of something that more or less vanished in ME2.

They were mentioned, and that conversation pretty clearly sets up them being in ME3.

[Morroian]

WeRtheBrox wrote...

I recently read this article at greywardens.com arguing against the notion that our choices in DA2 don't matter the way they do in Origins, and I have to say that I agree with the author -- whatever choices we make along the way, in either game, lead us to the same conclusion.  So I began to wonder, why are there so many complaints about DA2 that claim otherwise?  I believe I may have the answer:  the epilogues.

I agree with the article but DAO did one thing better, create the illusion of choice. As the writer says in reality there are barely any more game defining choices in DAO than DA2 but the illusion of choice is there.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Tommy6860 wrote...

@ Shadow, But doesn't only the PC do the final kill cutscene when slaying the Archdemon? I admit, as many times as I have played Origins, I have never had a different cutscene ending. I have had Leliana kill the AD before as well.

Keep in mind I'm talking about the cinematic--grabbing the sword, charging, etc, not the generic 'High Dragon Just Got Stabbed In The Head' combat animation.

If Morrigan's ritual is accepted, the kill cinematic is always done by the Warden.

If it's not accepted, it can be the Warden, Alistair or Loghain (the latter two possible if they are in the active party).

The *combat* animation can be anyone, but it's followed by the cinematic.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 30 mai 2011 - 03:08 .

[Tommy6860]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...

@ Shadow, But doesn't only the PC do the final kill cutscene when slaying the Archdemon? I admit, as many times as I have played Origins, I have never had a different cutscene ending. I have had Leliana kill the AD before as well.

Keep in mind I'm talking about the cinematic--grabbing the sword, charging, etc, not the generic 'High Dragon Just Got Stabbed In The Head' combat animation.

If Morrigan's ritual is accepted, the kill cinematic is always done by the Warden.

If it's not accepted, it can be the Warden, Alistair or Loghain (the latter two possible if they are in the active party).

The *combat* animation can be anyone, but it's followed by the cinematic.

Hmm, interesting, even when I turned down the DR, I still killed the AD with Alistair there (I hated viewing my funeral though). I even found a save and loaded it, and still I killed the AD. No biggie, but I think that is a very cool difference, something I think even makes the end game better now that I know that. Another aspect that made Origins the great game it is.

EDIT: Just to be clear, as I wasn't specific in my previous reply. I knew what you meant, hence why I said cutscene, cutscene for me = cinematic :-).

Modifié par Tommy6860, 30 mai 2011 - 03:27 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

It might have something to do with your friendship status with Alistair, I'm not sure. And if you're a female Warden in a relationship with him, he gives you no choice and takes the killing blow.

[Tommy6860]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

It might have something to do with your friendship status with Alistair, I'm not sure. And if you're a female Warden in a relationship with him, he gives you no choice and takes the killing blow.

I never romanced him, not my type :-). I was good friends with Alistair, I passed on the DR, I did the killing blow cinematic and got mourned at my funeral pyre. In any event, it is good to know that there are more variations, thanks for sharing it though :-).

[Zjarcal]

That article is SOOOOOOOO full of win, I can't help but want to kiss the author. On the cheek anyway...

[Tommy6860]

Zjarcal wrote...

That article is SOOOOOOOO full of win, I can't help but want to kiss the author. On the cheek anyway...

I ike your new avatar, it will give me pause to disagree with you, I don't want pony-shoe marks on my face

And yes, this thread is total win!

[Zjarcal]

Tommy6860 wrote...

I ike your new avatar, it will give me pause to disagree with you, I don't want pony-shoe marks on my face

I knew this avi was just PERFECT for the forums. 

[jlb524]

Nice article, I agree with it.

[KennethAFTopp]

"Origins is no more re-playable than Dragon Age 2"
AAAAAAAND I disagree.