16 réponses à ce sujet

[Phil5000]

Hi there. I've been using a 19" CRT for years and would happily stick
with it if it was wide screen. I decided I needed a new one and spent a
long time looking at LCDs.



I bought a new LCD, a Samsung P2350 for $412 New Zealand dollars. I
researched exhaustively, comparing stats and reading reviews and
listening to recommendations. I've bought two LCDs in the past, a
Samsung 933BW and a BenQ E2200HD. They both had things I liked and some
things I didn't like but I wasn't completely happy with either so
returned them. When deciding on a new one I came down to this P2350
(which is the most expensive I could afford) or I could have saved a
hundred bucks and got a Samsung 2233SW+ which had very similar stats.
The P2350 supposedly has a 2ms response time where as the 2233SW has
5ms so that is basically what swung it.



But after playing with it for several hours I'm not happy and I'm
beginning to really wish I'd got the cheaper one. If I mention what the
probelms are I was hoping someone might be able to tell me if they
think the monitor should be performing better or if it's just LCDs in
general.



I've got the PC connected with DVI and the 360 with VGA. The 360 is
what is important and why I bought the monitor. The Windows desktop
looks great. It's a huge screen and there's bags of space for multiple
windows and applications and whatnot. The text is crips, the white
looks very white and the black text looks black. But when I scroll a
window up or down the text goes blurry. Should it be doing this?



I fired up Fallout 3 on the 360, and it looks amazing if I'm standing
still and I'm somewhere brightly lit. The picture is very vibrant, the
colours look good and the details are sharp. I'm very happy with that.
But if I look around there is quite atrocious motion blur. I expected a
bit but this is ridiculous. All games have some motion blur even on a
CRT (I know they're not supposed to but they do) so I wasn't expecting
it to bother me that much. But considering I spent an extra hundred for
the 2ms response time I am disappointed.



And when I go somewhere dark then the picture looks bad. I don't quite
know how to put it, but it's a sort of shiny grey appearance on the
screen that is very noticable in darkness. I thought the 50, 000:1
contrast ratio would eliminate that. It makes the picture look very,
sort of flat. This "flat" appearance is particularly prominent around
the corners of the screen but goes away if I move my head so I'm
looking right at it. I wondered if a smaller screen might minimise
that. I didn't notice it on the 19" LCD I used to have. The 2233SW is
22" which is one of the reasons I think I might be better off with that
one.



I'm also not a fan of the touch menu buttons, because you have to be
very precise how you touch them or the menu doesn't come on. And the
monitor seems very wobbly on it's stand.



I'm planning to move the PC out of my room and hook the 360 up using a
HDMI to DVI adapter, and I'm hoping that will improve performance. But
if it doesn't I'll be very tempted to return it. That would be a bit stupid
because of the 10% restocking fee. If I sent it back and got the
2233SW+ I'd be up a whopping $30.



So I'd really appreciate some feedback. Is it worth exchanging it for
what is an older and inferior model? Are the problems with the bluring
during games and the "flat" appearence in dark areas to be expected
with any LCD? Would a smaller screen improve it?



This is the third monitor I've tried out. Am I just chaing a dragon that I'm never going to catch?



I'd really appreciate any comments, particularly if you have experience with either of these monitors.



Thanks.

Modifié par Phil5000, 20 novembre 2009 - 08:24 .

[Sheylan]

Well, part of your problem might be that an XBox realy isnt designed to be used on a computer monitor. Thats realy the only reason I can imagine that you are having a problem.

As far as using it on a computer... I have had the same HP 2035 LCD for more than 5 years now. It's 1600/1200 with a SIXTEEN ms response time. And I have had NO problems with it. So high resolution LCDs work great as computer monitors. And this one, which is old enough you CANNOT find it new, (or for the most part, even used) anywhere, is still incredibly reliable.


I realy think that for playing a 360 your best bet is probably a regular 32inch or so 720p TV. It simply isnt desined for a computer moniter

Modifié par Sheylan, 20 novembre 2009 - 01:07 .

[Benfea]

 Trade it in for a cheaper TN panel.

TN panels are the most commonly used because they are cheap and the pixels can change colors very fast. The downside is that they cannot reproduce 24-bits of color (they produce 18 bit color, then use dithering to simulate the other 6 bits of color information), and the color and brightness changes as your viewing angle changes.

Any panel type other than Twisted Nematic is going to be something intended for artists. They're more expensive and the pixels change color slowly (making them bad for gaming), but they can produce the full 24-bits and you don't have to worry about the color and brightness shifting just because your head moved a couple of inches. Non-TN panel monitors also produce a lot of gushing reviews because people who do a lot of artwork are shocked to find a monitor tailored for their needs instead of for the needs of gamers.

[Phil5000]

Sheylan wrote...

Well, part of your problem might be that an XBox realy isnt designed to be used on a computer monitor. Thats realy the only reason I can imagine that you are having a problem.

As far as using it on a computer... I have had the same HP 2035 LCD for more than 5 years now. It's 1600/1200 with a SIXTEEN ms response time. And I have had NO problems with it. So high resolution LCDs work great as computer monitors. And this one, which is old enough you CANNOT find it new, (or for the most part, even used) anywhere, is still incredibly reliable.


I realy think that for playing a 360 your best bet is probably a regular 32inch or so 720p TV. It simply isnt desined for a computer moniter

I went through a big debate about getting a monitor or a tv, and I tried out a Samsung 32" tv and I had exactly the same problems. In the end I decided to go for a monitor because I could save a LOT of money, and I already had a tv. If I needed a new tv I would have splashed out on one. But I didn't so it wasn't really worth the cost.

I also played a PC game on my new monitor and noticed the same things. I wondered if my definition of motion blur is different to everyone elses. Or I'm just hyper picky. I'll try and take a picture of the screen to illustrate.

Thank you.

[Phil5000]

Benfea wrote...

 Trade it in for a cheaper TN panel.

TN panels are the most commonly used because they are cheap and the pixels can change colors very fast. The downside is that they cannot reproduce 24-bits of color (they produce 18 bit color, then use dithering to simulate the other 6 bits of color information), and the color and brightness changes as your viewing angle changes.

Any panel type other than Twisted Nematic is going to be something intended for artists. They're more expensive and the pixels change color slowly (making them bad for gaming), but they can produce the full 24-bits and you don't have to worry about the color and brightness shifting just because your head moved a couple of inches. Non-TN panel monitors also produce a lot of gushing reviews because people who do a lot of artwork are shocked to find a monitor tailored for their needs instead of for the needs of gamers.

I believe it is a TN panel. It supposedly has a response time of 2ms, and from what I understand it must be a TN panel. Also non TN panels are very rare and expensive.

[Xiphias]

Phil5000 wrote...

I bought a new LCD, a Samsung P2350 for $412 New Zealand dollars. I
researched exhaustively, comparing stats and reading reviews and
listening to recommendations.

...

The text is crips, the white
looks very white and the black text looks black. But when I scroll a
window up or down the text goes blurry. Should it be doing this?

...

But if I look around there is quite atrocious motion blur. I expected a
bit but this is ridiculous. All games have some motion blur even on a
CRT (I know they're not supposed to but they do) so I wasn't expecting
it to bother me that much. But considering I spent an extra hundred for
the 2ms response time I am disappointed.

...

And when I go somewhere dark then the picture looks bad. I don't quite
know how to put it, but it's a sort of shiny grey appearance on the
screen that is very noticable in darkness. I thought the 50, 000:1
contrast ratio would eliminate that. It makes the picture look very,
sort of flat. This "flat" appearance is particularly prominent around
the corners of the screen but goes away if I move my head so I'm
looking right at it. I wondered if a smaller screen might minimise
that. I didn't notice it on the 19" LCD I used to have. The 2233SW is
22" which is one of the reasons I think I might be better off with that
one.

Saying that a monitor has 50,000:1 contrast doesn't make it sound like your research has been that exhaustive.

For the specific issues:


Scrolling blurring text: Not an LCD thing. It may be that whatever operating system you're using enabled a smooth scrolling function when you changed screen. If you mean it stays blurred after being scrolled then I'd reinstall (with an updated version if availible) your graphics card driver.


Ghosting/Motion Blur: If you notice persistence of vision effects even on a CRT then you're always going to see them on an LCD. If it's particulaly bothersome you could try a LCD with Black Frame Insertion or Backlight sweeping. Alternatively, maybe it's the lowish 60fps that's causing the problem if you're used to running a CRT at a high refresh rate - maybe a 120hz monitor like the ViewSonic VX2268wm would be worth having a look at.

I don't know how much the P2350 differs, but Prad wasn't impressed by the P2370's response time: http://www.prad.de/e...370-part11.html

As for 2ms vs. 5ms, the difference isn't that a 2ms panel is superior technology, it's that it has something called Overdrive/RTC. This can made the pixels change faster, but on TNs it's not always well implemented and a bad implementation can cause halos or black/colourful trails. It also adds to display lag as it needs to buffer a frame so some gamers prefer to go with a monitor without it. 

Oh, and for the cherry on the top there's currently no decent standard for measuring response time. Black-white-black (Tr/Tf) is a well defined standard, but is also the fastest response and rarely happens in practice. Grey to Grey should be more useful, but isn't defined anywhere so manufacturers can quote whatever figures they like.


Washed out at the edges of the screen is at least an easy one to answer. Poor viewing angles like that are an LCD thing but TN technology is particulaly bad at it and it's apparently much less noticeable on IPS screens (and VA screens, but they have the opposite 'black crush' effect where things goes too dark when viewed head on). Smaller screens do suffer from it less because the angle you view the edges of the screen at is smaller.  I think the Dell 2209WA is currently the cheapest IPS, although I don't know what it's response times are like.


While LCDs do have some advantages when it comes to image (geometry is always correct, brightness can go much higher, they're bigger), they unfortunately still haven't exceeded CRT quality in quite a few areas so you may find you're going to have to put up with at least one flaw.

Sheylan wrote...

Well, part of your problem might be that an XBox realy isnt designed to be used on a computer monitor. Thats realy the only reason I can imagine that you are having a problem.

That can't be the case here, the P2350 is a 1920x1080 monitor so it must be specifically designed for stuff like consoles and blu-ray players rather than a normal 1920x1200 computer widescreen (which has more vertical height to accomodate webpages, and other vertical document formats, better).

Phil5000 wrote...

I believe it is a TN panel. It supposedly has a response time of 2ms, and from what I understand it must be a TN panel. Also non TN panels are very rare and expensive.

IPS and VA panels are more expensive because they're better quality, but they're not particularly rare (except in showrooms unfortunately), there's at least half a dozen easily available home/business models before you get into artist price range, probably closer to a dozen.

Modifié par Xiphias, 20 novembre 2009 - 04:36 .

[Benfea]

Phil5000 wrote...

Benfea wrote...

 Trade it in for a cheaper TN panel.

TN panels are the most commonly used because they are cheap and the pixels can change colors very fast. The downside is that they cannot reproduce 24-bits of color (they produce 18 bit color, then use dithering to simulate the other 6 bits of color information), and the color and brightness changes as your viewing angle changes.

Any panel type other than Twisted Nematic is going to be something intended for artists. They're more expensive and the pixels change color slowly (making them bad for gaming), but they can produce the full 24-bits and you don't have to worry about the color and brightness shifting just because your head moved a couple of inches. Non-TN panel monitors also produce a lot of gushing reviews because people who do a lot of artwork are shocked to find a monitor tailored for their needs instead of for the needs of gamers.

I believe it is a TN panel. It supposedly has a response time of 2ms, and from what I understand it must be a TN panel. Also non TN panels are very rare and expensive.

Are you sure? You're in the right price range for the lower end of non-TN panels, and the characteristics you describe sure as hell don't sound like a TN panel.

[Phil5000]

Benfea wrote...

Are you sure? You're in the right price range for the lower end of non-TN panels, and the characteristics you describe sure as hell don't sound like a TN panel.

To be honest no I'm not. According to this it is, but it's not official.
http://en.kioskea.ne...ter-p2350-black

[Phil5000]

It could be that what I understand as motion blur is different to everyone else. But if you look at this link, look at the picture on the bottom left of the kid swinging on the rope. My monitor looks like the left image, the 12ms one. Not the one on the right.

I'd return it but I don't know if any other monitor I got would be better. What would be ideal is for someone with some experience or technical knowledge to come and have a look at it how I've got it set up, with the game I'm playing so they can tell me if I'm experiencing a problem or I'm just expecting too much from it.

I should also point out (this has just occured to me) that I haven't noticed any blurring on movies because I haven't watched any movies on it yet. I'm talking about games. So maybe it's the games and not the monitor. But it's all games I played.

http://www.samsung.c...type=prd_detail

Modifié par Phil5000, 21 novembre 2009 - 06:57 .

[Phil5000]

The other problem I mentioned, the flat grey appearance, I believe is the surface of the screen itself. It's easy to see over a dark image but you don't see it at all over a bright one. Does everyone have that?

Thanks for everyone for all your comments. It helps a lot.

Modifié par Phil5000, 21 novembre 2009 - 07:00 .

[Xiphias]

Phil5000 wrote...

The other problem I mentioned, the flat grey appearance, I believe is the surface of the screen itself. It's easy to see over a dark image but you don't see it at all over a bright one. Does everyone have that?

Thanks for everyone for all your comments. It helps a lot.

I still think it's the viewing angle issue as it is more or less apparently depending on colour. Try it on a pink or purple screen as that often shows it up best.

The tests at http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/ might help you clarify the problem.

[Phil5000]

Xiphias wrote...

Phil5000 wrote...

The other problem I mentioned, the flat grey appearance, I believe is the surface of the screen itself. It's easy to see over a dark image but you don't see it at all over a bright one. Does everyone have that?

Thanks for everyone for all your comments. It helps a lot.

I still think it's the viewing angle issue as it is more or less apparently depending on colour. Try it on a pink or purple screen as that often shows it up best.

The tests at http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/ might help you clarify the problem.

I see what you mean about the viewing angle because its more prominent around the edges. But it's still there to some degree even when you're looking right at it. I had a friend come over just now who's more technically savy than me, and when I pointed out to him what I meant he said it was backlight bleed, and there's nothing you can do about it, it's just the nature of TN LCDs. He also said the motion blur looked ok in his opinion. So it's possible I'm just expecting too much from it. I'd like to get some more opinions so I might contact the vendor to see if they can send someone over. But I'm feeling better about it now.

I know these are very subjective things and it's very hard to judge from just describing it.

I don't know if this has anything to do with the ghosting, but when I set up the 360 with the HDMI to DVI adapter and set the display to 1080p, the 360 set 50hz automatically instead of 60hz which is the monitor's native. I assume it should be set to 60 but I can't seem to set it manually anywhere. Would anyone know anything about that. Why is it defaulting to 50?

[Benfea]

Phil5000 wrote...

Benfea wrote...

Are you sure? You're in the right price range for the lower end of non-TN panels, and the characteristics you describe sure as hell don't sound like a TN panel.

To be honest no I'm not. According to this it is, but it's not official.
http://en.kioskea.ne...ter-p2350-black

I just did a cursory Google check, and it looks like it's a TN panel (despite Samsung's claims it can reproduce 16.7 million colors).

I would call Samsung. There is no reason a TN panel costing that much should exhibit the characteristics you describe. Maybe the one you got is defective, or maybe they'll give you a bunch of excuses (which lets you know this is a problem with the entire model). Either way, you won't know until you call.

This is odd, because I've used a couple of Samsung TN panel monitors, and they've been great for gaming.

[Phil5000]

Benfea wrote...


I just did a cursory Google check, and it looks like it's a TN panel (despite Samsung's claims it can reproduce 16.7 million colors).

I would call Samsung. There is no reason a TN panel costing that much should exhibit the characteristics you describe. Maybe the one you got is defective, or maybe they'll give you a bunch of excuses (which lets you know this is a problem with the entire model). Either way, you won't know until you call.

This is odd, because I've used a couple of Samsung TN panel monitors, and they've been great for gaming.

Heya thanks for your reply.

I spoke to Samsung today. They said it does sound like a fault and they can arrange to have it assessed but if they don't find a fault I'll be charged. Since I've only had it a week they suggested returning it to the vendor but they charge a 10% restocking fee to return an item that's not faulty (or that I can't prove is faulty).

So I'm stuck. I can't risk sending it to Samsung because I can't afford a huge bill, and there's no point returning it if it's going to cost me fifty bucks!

I don't know what to do.

[Benfea]

Phil5000 wrote...

Benfea wrote...


I just did a cursory Google check, and it looks like it's a TN panel (despite Samsung's claims it can reproduce 16.7 million colors).

I would call Samsung. There is no reason a TN panel costing that much should exhibit the characteristics you describe. Maybe the one you got is defective, or maybe they'll give you a bunch of excuses (which lets you know this is a problem with the entire model). Either way, you won't know until you call.

This is odd, because I've used a couple of Samsung TN panel monitors, and they've been great for gaming.

Heya thanks for your reply.

I spoke to Samsung today. They said it does sound like a fault and they can arrange to have it assessed but if they don't find a fault I'll be charged. Since I've only had it a week they suggested returning it to the vendor but they charge a 10% restocking fee to return an item that's not faulty (or that I can't prove is faulty).

So I'm stuck. I can't risk sending it to Samsung because I can't afford a huge bill, and there's no point returning it if it's going to cost me fifty bucks!

I don't know what to do.

How much can they charge you? At most I'm guessing the cost of shipping plus about an hour of some guy's time (assuming they round up). Surely it's not so expensive that it's not worth checking out a $400+ part. It's your call of course. If the cost they intend to charge if they find nothing wrong is the cost of a new (cheaper) monitor, I say no-go. If it's less... hey why not?

[Phil5000]

Benfea wrote...
How much can they charge you? At most I'm guessing the cost of shipping plus about an hour of some guy's time (assuming they round up). Surely it's not so expensive that it's not worth checking out a $400+ part. It's your call of course. If the cost they intend to charge if they find nothing wrong is the cost of a new (cheaper) monitor, I say no-go. If it's less... hey why not?

I asked if it would be more than $50 and they said yes, so perhaps $100 or so. On top of the $400 I already paid for it, it was just too much considering I didn't know for sure if what I was experiencing was a fault or just me being super picky. I suspact the latter.

I explained the situation to the vendor and sent it back, hopefully they will wave the restocking fee, which will be a relief.

But what to do now? Get something similar and risk being disappointed again? Spend at least twice as much and still not be sure if I'll be happy? I can see I'm going to be stuck with my 19" CRT forever.

Anyway, thanks very much everyone. It helps just to have people to talk about it with.

[Xiphias]

OLED technology does promise to solve some of these problems but it'll likely be at least 3-5 years before they're at TN prices and the current screens apparently go bad pretty quickly. SED/FED technology sounds even better (tiny CRTs for each subpixel) but development in uncertain.



Either way, it appears LCD is either on it's way out or likely to soon get a competitor to force it to improve quickly.