422 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

There is an element of hypocrisy

Fenris is someone possessed of dangerous and unnatural power, who massacred innocent people because he was unable to resist a "demon". Yet he wants to live free.

[Sinaxi]

Arquen wrote...
As for Tidra.. your preaching to the choir. Yet that still doesn't have anything to do with Fenris but is another argument that not everyone is going to agree with, and therefore I still maintain that it is opinion. Opinion based on a lot of premises sure, but it isn't going to fly with Fenris, and it isn't going to fly with people who don't believe it. They have their own proofs too that the circle is nothing like slavery. I'm sure Fenris would have quite a few personal examples about how the circle is nothing like slavery in Tevinter. Still, that argument much like the mage/templar thing moves away from the core argument about Fenris.

As far as the Circle in Tevinter, that's in Tevinter. He can say the Circles outside of Tevinter are all going to go nuts and turn into Magisters if they're given freedom, but it still doesn't make the slavery aspect untrue. Circles in Tevinter and Circles everywhere else are two completely different stories, so his examples wouldn't really amount to much...besides him saying that all Mages should be kept prisoner because he's afraid of them potentially turning into "Magisters"...which I don't find to be a good reason to keep a group of people imprisoned for centuries on the off-chance they might establish a society like Tevinter when most of these Mages just want to lead a normal life. Even Anders brings up that the Circle should be more like a school, not a prison.

I perfectly understand it will "never fly" with Fenris or some people in the general populace, but as far as examples go proving that it's not slavery (that you say these random people supposedly have) - they would be examples that people would literally have to pull out of their ass.. because like I said "Mages are dangerous, and must be contained" only goes so far and the scale tips a whole lot more towards the fact that Circles are a form of slavery.

Which is why these people in game, and people on the forums can call it opinion all they want but at the core they are still incorrect. I don't care what you believe, if you support Mages or Templars, but people that try to argue that the Circle isn't a form of slavery when the entire system pretty much fits the baseline idea/definition of slavery/imprisonment are asinine...and that includes Fenris.

Modifié par Tidra, 28 août 2011 - 05:16 .

[Elhanan]

I don't hate Fenris; he admits to being a whiner when confronted. Kinda liked that, plus some good dialogue with Varric along the way makes him bearable. And I enjoy the VO; memorable.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Arquen wrote...

As for Tidra.. your preaching to the choir. Yet that still doesn't have anything to do with Fenris but is another argument that not everyone is going to agree with, and therefore I still maintain that it is opinion. Opinion based on a lot of premises sure, but it isn't going to fly with Fenris, and it isn't going to fly with people who don't believe it. They have their own proofs too that the circle is nothing like slavery. I'm sure Fenris would have quite a few personal examples about how the circle is nothing like slavery in Tevinter. Still, that argument much like the mage/templar thing moves away from the core argument about Fenris.

Not being slavery in Tevinter doesn't mean it isn't slavery. That's a logical fallacy and one must have very low standards if they believe anything short of complete and utter butchery is fine as long as it doesn't reach that level.

[mesmerizedish]

HOW CAN ANYONE HATE PEENRIS?!?!?!

[Tealsie]

Tidra wrote...

besides him saying that all Mages should be kept prisoner because he's afraid of them potentially turning into "Magisters"...which I don't find to be a good reason to keep a group of people imprisoned for centuries on the off-chance they might establish a society like Tevinter when most of these Mages just want to lead a normal life.

Considering he spent(most likely) his whole life leading up to his escape in Tevinter, watching whoknowshowmany mages turning "bad/evil"... could you at least see that he's fair enough to admit that not all mages are weak or will turn to demons or blood magic? He could have easily turned against all mages, and no one could really blame him... but he didn't/doesn't.

For all that he has times of lashing out and saying things like "mages always turn to blood magic/demons/whateverelse!", once he calms down, or is calm to begin with... he's a little harsh, but still quite reasonable about the whole thing, considering his past experiences. Alot of all of this boils down to(among other things) how different people handle different things. If you had been in his situation, you might have wound up feeling much the same way that he does.  
Unfortunately, in regards to the circle, either way you go there's really no winning, I think.
As far as I can remember, he seemed to follow the whole "the circle is as much for the safety of others, as it is for the safety of the mages themselves" thought.

but people that try to argue that the Circle isn't a form of slavery when the entire system pretty much fits the baseline idea/definition of slavery/imprisonment are asinine...and that includes Fenris.

That's rather rude of you, don't you think?  Stepping more towards fight, and farther away from decent argument...

Modifié par Tealsie, 28 août 2011 - 06:05 .

[Xilizhra]

He could have easily turned against all mages, and no one could really blame him... but he didn't/doesn't.

Well, doesn't he turn against all mages if he turns on you in the mage ending?

[Sinaxi]

Tealsie wrote...

Tidra wrote...

besides him saying that all Mages should be kept prisoner because he's afraid of them potentially turning into "Magisters"...which I don't find to be a good reason to keep a group of people imprisoned for centuries on the off-chance they might establish a society like Tevinter when most of these Mages just want to lead a normal life.

Considering he spent(most likely) his whole life leading up to his escape in Tevinter, watching whoknowshowmany mages turning "bad/evil"... could you at least see that he's fair enough to admit that not all mages are weak or will turn to demons or blood magic? He could have easily turned against all mages, and no one could really blame him... but he didn't/doesn't.

For all that he has times of lashing out and saying things like "mages always turn to blood magic/demons/whateverelse!", once he calms down, or is calm to begin with... he's a little harsh, but still quite reasonable about the whole thing, considering his past experiences. Alot of all of this boils down to(among other things) how different people handle different things. If you had been in his situation, you might have wound up feeling much the same way that he does.  
Unfortunately, in regards to the circle, either way you go there's really no winning, I think.
As far as I can remember, he seemed to follow the whole "the circle is as much for the safety of others, as it is for the safety of the mages themselves" thought.

but people that try to argue that the Circle isn't a form of slavery when the entire system pretty much fits the baseline idea/definition of slavery/imprisonment are asinine...and that includes Fenris.

That's rather rude of you, don't you think?  Stepping more towards fight, and farther away from decent argument...

Not a fight, a statement...that I stand by. I find it baffling that people will actually attempt to argue that the Circle is not slavery, and therefore said it is asinine to do so. No fight there at all, just me stating that it is kind of ridiculous when like I said - the whole system can be categorized as such in several different areas...and it leans much more towards the scale of slavery then it does "non-slavery" or whatever.

And again, this has nothing to do with his past experiences or why he believes what he believes - simply that when it comes down to it he is ultimately wrong about there being no such thing as slavery within the Circle when there very clearly is...and despite seeing instances of this he generally ignores all of it.

[Tealsie]

Xilizhra wrote...

He could have easily turned against all mages, and no one could really blame him... but he didn't/doesn't.

Well, doesn't he turn against all mages if he turns on you in the mage ending?

In a way, yes I suppose he does. I had been thinking more along the lines of if you full rivalry/friendship him.
... actually, along that line, Hawke is a bit like Fenris' last hope.  

[Bullets McDeath]

I don't hate him but I do want to mention that when he turned on me in my last pro-Mage playthrough, I turned him into a blood slave immediately, he slaughtered most of his Templar companions, and then died. It was cold-blooded awesome.

[Tealsie]

Tidra wrote...

Not a fight, a statement...that I stand by.

That's fine. I still stand by my comment that it was rude. There was/is probably a better word/wording that you could've used that was more fair. Anyway...

I find it baffling that people will actually attempt to argue that the Circle is not slavery, and therefore said it is asinine to do so. No fight there at all, just me stating that it is kind of ridiculous when like I said - the whole system can be categorized as such in several different areas...and it leans much more towards the scale of slavery then it does "non-slavery" or whatever.

I'll only argue against that because "slavery" somehow doesn't seem quite right. The circle as a prison seems closer. It's a sort of... prison/criminal/whatever system... in a slight reverse. "catch potential criminals before they might do any harm", or something.  

[berelinde]

Tealsie wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

He could have easily turned against all mages, and no one could really blame him... but he didn't/doesn't.

Well, doesn't he turn against all mages if he turns on you in the mage ending?

In a way, yes I suppose he does. I had been thinking more along the lines of if you full rivalry/friendship him.
... actually, along that line, Hawke is a bit like Fenris' last hope.  

Unless you're metagaming, it's surprisingly easy to get Fenris stuck in the dreaded neutral zone. Sure, you get rivalry points for mage-supporting activities like passing Anders the salt (I kid, I kid), but you get friendship points pretty easily, too.

So yeah, when I'm deciding how I feel about a companion, I try not to place too much emphasis on their full friendship/full rival behavior. At that point, unless they're Anders or Sebastian, they'll side with you no matter what. Anders and Sebastian have their own agendas.

[Zjarcal]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

HOW CAN ANYONE HATE PEENRIS?!?!?!

*snips horrible picture that should never be posted ever again*

I don't hate Fenris, but I do hate Peenris.

[KnightofPhoenix]

In a few years time, I will ask "who was Fenris?"

That's my impression of him.

[Chromie]

I do.

[phaonica]

Tealsie wrote...

I'll only argue against that because "slavery" somehow doesn't seem quite right. The circle as a prison seems closer. It's a sort of... prison/criminal/whatever system... in a slight reverse. "catch potential criminals before they might do any harm", or something.  

I think it is ideally supposed to be more like an internment system. To me "slavery" implies property and labor, "prison" implies criminality, and "internment" implies forced isolation. That's all semantics, however. To Fenris, it seems, the "internment" of the circle mages seems far less "oppressive" than the "slavery" that Fenris has perceived in Tevinter. He admits that the Circle might not be the answer, but he does think that the internment of the Circle system seems to be better for more people in general than the Tevinter system seemed to be.

Modifié par phaonica, 28 août 2011 - 08:34 .

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

In a few years time, I will ask "who was Fenris?"

That's my impression of him.

Heh. I think I'll forget DA2 as a whole in a few years XD

It's just a game. 

Won't ever forget the awesomenes that is Ugly Shepard though. 

[The Baconer]

outlaworacle wrote...

I don't hate him but I do want to mention that when he turned on me in my last pro-Mage playthrough, I turned him into a blood slave immediately, he slaughtered most of his Templar companions, and then died. It was cold-blooded awesome.

Such a perfect combination of hilarity and cruelty, it's almost poetic. I already get kicks out of using Blood Sacrifice on him, but I've never thought of doing that before. Maybe I shouldn't max his Rivalry this playthrough.

Modifié par The Baconer, 28 août 2011 - 09:22 .

[BBK4114]

Tainan7509 wrote...

Me and Anders.

ROFLMAO!!!!   

That was truly a delightful breath of fresh air in this "you're missing my point" ad nauseum postings by Fenris-loving thread hi-jackers.  

Btw all of you whom fit this category. This thread is titled "Who hated Fenris?" not "Jump in here and insist everyone who did not like Fenris for whatever reason is wrong."  Go tell it to the official Penris (LOL at this too) thread.  

outlaworacle wrote...

I don't hate him but I do want to mention that when he turned on me in my last pro-Mage playthrough, I turned him into a blood slave immediately, he slaughtered most of his Templar companions, and then died. It was cold-blooded awesome.

I have only played as a blood mage once in origins, but I am sooooo gonna have to try this!  

Modifié par BBK4114, 28 août 2011 - 09:25 .

[esper]

phaonica wrote...

Tealsie wrote...

I'll only argue against that because "slavery" somehow doesn't seem quite right. The circle as a prison seems closer. It's a sort of... prison/criminal/whatever system... in a slight reverse. "catch potential criminals before they might do any harm", or something.  

I think it is ideally supposed to be more like an internment system. To me "slavery" implies property and labor, "prison" implies criminality, and "internment" implies forced isolation. That's all semantics, however. To Fenris, it seems, the "internment" of the circle mages seems far less "oppressive" than the "slavery" that Fenris has perceived in Tevinter. He admits that the Circle might not be the answer, but he does think that the internment of the Circle system seems to be better for more people in general than the Tevinter system seemed to be.

Doesn't the system earn money of the mages enchantments and potions, though. If you keep people locked up their whole life and earn some sort of money on them, I call it slavery.

[Xariann]

I don't really like Fenris. I went full rival with him. You save him and then he says he'll watch your sister (if you are not a mage yourself.) It doesn't matter if he then adds "I hope I am not sounding ungrateful, because it's far from the truth." Because he IS being ungrateful. However, I also understand the other side of the coin. Yes, he did spend all of his life escaping and saw mages do horrible things. His fears/antagonism are justified.

As to the Circle... It's a bit like a Minority Report system. People whine about mages doing horrid things, then you just need to go out at night in Kirkwall and meet a bunch of thugs, most of them being totally normal people, committing all sorts of crimes.

Why don't you just lock up your whole city to prevent crime then? Easier that way.

That said, the mages IN the Circle, if you played Mage in Dragon Age: Origins you might notice it, try to support each other a whole lot. So while they have a lot of restrictions, the mages themselves are like brothers and have connections they might not find elsewhere.

It's a bit of a catch 22 where people think mages are evil because some of them did evil things, so they will treat them badly. Mages think they won't be understood because people think they are evil and that might turn them into being evil. That's the power of generalisation for you. Rather than taking each individual for their worth, you just treat them all the same way, and you will have injustice whatever you do by saying "They are all like this."

Modifié par Xariann, 28 août 2011 - 09:49 .

[Sinaxi]

Tealsie wrote...

Tidra wrote...

Not a fight, a statement...that I stand by.

That's fine. I still stand by my comment that it was rude. There was/is probably a better word/wording that you could've used that was more fair. Anyway...

I find it baffling that people will actually attempt to argue that the Circle is not slavery, and therefore said it is asinine to do so. No fight there at all, just me stating that it is kind of ridiculous when like I said - the whole system can be categorized as such in several different areas...and it leans much more towards the scale of slavery then it does "non-slavery" or whatever.

I'll only argue against that because "slavery" somehow doesn't seem quite right. The circle as a prison seems closer. It's a sort of... prison/criminal/whatever system... in a slight reverse. "catch potential criminals before they might do any harm", or something.  

Yeah, there probably was better wording I could have used. I didn't though.

Lol, well if you actually read my post you could see that I said several things that can be considered examples of slavery. I also mentioned what Esper just said, which yeah they do earn money. They make the Mages fund their own prison. Isn't that neat? There are several reasons why the Circle can be considered slavery, and like I said before slavery in and of itself is technically imprisonment anyways. It's both a prison, and essentially a slave institution.

Bottom line: When you take people against their will, put them somewhere, tell them they can't leave, tell them they answer to their Templar masters, and make them fund the place where the Templars are keeping them prisoner...uhhh yes, I call that slavery.

Slavery isn't just about "forced labor", it implies that these people have no rights...which Mages don't...and it also means that they are deprived of the right to leave, along with the fact that uh..Mages aren't exactly getting paid for whatever work they do for the Chantry so yes they technically do forced labor anyways (especially the Tranquil). They can't go where they want, if they leave the Circle it's generally for an extremely important reason and they are accompanied by people who hold a significant amount of power (the warden, or say the Templar that was assigned to basically stalk Anders) It's not "freedom". Those are the relatively lucky ones, other than that if they leave the Circle it's because they were sent to another one, and it probably wasn't because they asked nicely to ship off to a different Circle.

[Dave of Canada]

I like Fenris and generally agree with him on everything. His raising his bottle in the air and saying he never met a finer person / mage made me feel all sorts of badass.

[Dave of Canada]

esper wrote...

Doesn't the system earn money of the mages enchantments and potions, though. If you keep people locked up their whole life and earn some sort of money on them, I call it slavery.

Yes and no.

Some Tranquil operate within the Circle for money, they create enchantments and whatever which goes directly to the Chantry's coffers. It isn't really slavery because the Tranquil have free will and are allowed to leave the Circle and live their life, purchase land, whatever. Those who operate for the Chantry / Circle do so of their own will, though it isn't often much of a choice considering the outside world doesn't treat them like equals either.

Mages, however, have the ability to make money for themselves. Otherwise, we wouldn't have an entire fraternity devoted to profit.

[esper]

Dave of Canada wrote...

esper wrote...

Doesn't the system earn money of the mages enchantments and potions, though. If you keep people locked up their whole life and earn some sort of money on them, I call it slavery.

Yes and no.

Some Tranquil operate within the Circle for money, they create enchantments and whatever which goes directly to the Chantry's coffers. It isn't really slavery because the Tranquil have free will and are allowed to leave the Circle and live their life, purchase land, whatever. Those who operate for the Chantry / Circle do so of their own will, though it isn't often much of a choice considering the outside world doesn't treat them like equals either.

Mages, however, have the ability to make money for themselves. Otherwise, we wouldn't have an entire fraternity devoted to profit.

They don't always have the free will to choose to be tranquil, though. So what you are saying is that their emotion are cut out and then they are asked to sustain the prison system. That is slavery.
As for the normal mages... I am not sure wherever they make money for themself or just manage some portion of the money made by selling. And it is still labour when you can't use the money you make because you are not allowed to go out of your prison and spend them - ever.